[TheChairGuy]

Yeah, try 'em (the Dakiom's).  I have the $59 ones, they came out with the (supposedly) upgraded $99 ones after I bought mine.

I met the inventor at CES in 2004 or 2005...he told me the 200-series are just more refined versions of the 100-series.

They take just a bit more of the digital edge off, and sharply better the dynamics and a sense of transient speed of even cheapie players.  They won't make you believe you are listening to good vinyl, however, they do improve what digital does offer. 

You may find the combo of your Sammy and a Dakiom to be better than your lovely Consanance...and pocket the difference.  Then again, you may not as they don't seem to work with about 10% of the players out there according to Dakiom.  Most mass market ones they do, however, it's usually just the 'specialist' stuff that they don't.

I'd love to hear your impression 

[Spirit]

Very interesting that this topic was started today.
Let me start by stating the following:  I will never profess that I have Golden ears.  It sometimes takes me a long time to determine sonic differences between various components.  But I will state this.  I really love my digital front end. Before I continue here is my front end:
Pioneer Elite PD-S95 Transport - modified
Musical Design DAC - Platinum Ultra edition
Taddeo Digital Antidote II
I truly love listening to the system and it never is fatiguing to my ears.
The Pioneer was modded by the same man who built the Musical Design DAC.  A wonderful gentleman out of Missouri named John Hillig.  John is one of those rare birds who believes that the engineering of components must include top quality parts.  Many of the name brand components that are sent to him for modding do not, unfortunately, possess the best of parts.  Over the years John has been able to provide me with mods that are extremely musically satisfying.
Case in point:  
I have been listening with great pleasure to the New York Audio Rave CD that Lonewolfny was so gracious to send me.  There are 2 tracks in particular that I have been playing constantly over the last few weeks.  They are:
Bozzio, Levin, Stevens - "Duende"
and
Ben Harper - "Gold to Me"
Let me describe one specific part of each of these tracks and then tell you what happened today:
Duende - At the beginning of the track there is clearly defined 30 seconds of guitar, bongos and bass guitar.  The clarity and imaging is startling.
Gold to Me:  Halfway into the song there is a very soft and crystal clear tapping of a triangle bell.
I decided this morning to unplug my Pioneer Transport and have my local Audio shop install an IEC connector on the back because my unit only has the stock, hard-wired AC cord and I want the option of using my own cords.
I own a late 80's CD player made by Kyocera, which at the time was their top of the line player.  This afternoon I connected the digital out of the Kyocera to the rest of my digital chain withoutchanging anything else.
The first thing I did was listen to these 2 tracks and to my surprise the music is just not the same.
Duende has lost its focus and the image is just not the same.
Gold to Me:  The triangle sounds flat and lifeness.
If I had to listen to my system with this transport I would not be happy.  Now, I can't wait to get my Pioneer back.
I do have a very fine vinyl front-end:
Ariston RD11s TT with A Rega 300 arm and Rega Elys cart.  Graham Slee Phono Stage.
I am happy with the sound but I really feel that my digital front end is better.

[lonewolfny42]

When I first read this topic...."All CD Players sound the same.  All CD Players sound the same?"....I thought, who's the nut that posted this ? Oh....its John...the Chair Guy....

 But he makes a good point ....Lp's do sound good...a smooth analog sound is very comforting compared to some digital sounding Cd's. But....you have to work at it, and take good care of your records. And "new music" on Lp's now command higher prices and less selections than Cd's.

For convenience and selection I do prefer Cd's....but to each his own. I never found listening to music on Cd's tiring....or "too digital". I do prefer a dynamic sound....I get that from Cd's....with no "snap, crackle, or pop".

Listen to what you like....and any way you prefer.....its music....enjoy it the best you can.
 
 

[TheChairGuy]

Good ole' WolfyChris made up a set of NY Rave discs for me, too.

Listening to both the Ben Harper and Bozzio, Levin, Stevens discs leads me to the same conclusions on my departed uber-front end and my cheapo one: they are stellar discs......and Chris must never sleep  aa

[lonewolfny42]

....and Chris must never sleep.

Ah.....your just jealous.....

[Scotty]

JANDG,If you place a buffer in the feedback loop of the op-amp in the output stage of
the player you will find that some op-amps can sound superb. An AD8620 is one example. When you ask the op-amp or the DAC chip itself to drive the load of the cables and the input impedance of a preamp, thermal debiasing distortion happens in the op-amp. The op-amp input stage and output stage are on the same die and heat in the output stage upsets the input stage and the feedback loop correction accuracy on a dynamic basis. The same thing also happens in the voltage output DAC chip if it is asked to drive current into a load. Also many players have an op-amp that is less than $1.00 per thousand with a 1volt per microsecond slewrate which is kind of slow for signal that reaches 20kHz. When you listen to an op-amp with no buffer in it's feedback loop you are listening to as much as 70% distortion
from this problem.
Scotty

[TheChairGuy]

Frank,

I do not know if you are still with us on this topic, but humor me if you are.

Do two of the three below items and report back to us.  I believe if you do, you will go back to the drawing boards for your DAC and realize how far you really are in attaining vinyl musicality:

1.  Buy a record cleaning machine and use it with supplied cleaning agent.  The cheap ones work the same as the expensive ones; convenience is all you are buying.

2.  Slap a Longhorn and damp the coils on the Grado Silver or Gold models, rather than the bottom-of-the-line Green

3.  Find either good belt drive table with at least a 10 lb. platter for enough rotational inertia to overcome the effects of stylus drag or a direct drive unit of sufficient quality.  Damped arms, with either type, are best and most beneficial with the Grado line.

(Added and optional benefit: treat your worn out and down records to some LAST Record Preservative)

Do 2 of the above 3 and I think you will realize exactly how far away from analog-like performance you really are still.  Do 3 of the above 3 and you will likely reach the conclusion that it is hopeless to match vinyl for musicality; your goal will change to merely attaining the highest level of playback quality you can with (inherently greater flawed) CD technology.

Respectfully,

John

I would like to weigh in on this with a bit of credentials for support.

Inventor of the Longhorn stabilizer that everyone who has tried it agrees a nice help to record playback.

Producer of some darn good CD DACs with always more protos cobbled up on in the lab trying for better yet.  Nothing new remotely close to production yet, but I get to hear what you cannot.

At this point in time with the DACs we are shipping now, my Telarc CDs are playing back with every bit as good musicality as my Telarc LP records from the same source originals.  Except the CDs have better dynamic range and no noise.  The records play back great with our new phono preamp circuits, better than we would have expected, but the CDs win.

There is soooo much to go bad in CD playback.  The digital data stream is perfect if the error correction codes are properly followed (almost all do) but there are terrible things to the music that can go wrong in the D to A converter circuits, the digital filter circuits, the analog filter circuits, and the analog output circuits.

For heaven's sake don't blame it all on "being digital," that is the least of the worries.

If you have not heard truly musical CD playback yet, it does not mean it cannot be done, all that means is that you have not heard it yet.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[shep]

"You can disagree with me....this is all just fun and games here at AC. But, if you too are a young guy that is chasing the elusive dream of CD perfection.....live thru my silliness and save your money toward retirement (or, better wine and a top-of-the-line Citroen in your case my French friend  )"
Time differences... Sadly I'm not a young guy! SO maybe I don't hear the digital nasties anymore! I'll persist in my folly aa I have a "cheap" old Marantz, heavily re-visited. It sounds a treat. I'm getting new op amps soon...will sound even better. I don't drink, I have a German car. There's no fool like an old one

[jrebman]

I pretty much did this same thing as TCG -- traded in a Capitole SE for a pair of AZ adagio speakers and bought a sub $1k Onix CDP and am not looking back.  Does it sound different, slightly more harsh in the highs?  Yes, and the mids aren't as smoothe either, but now that I have about 500 hours of constant play time on it it is really coming into its own.  In fact, there is more detail and resolution at both ends of the spectrum and the dynamics seem to be equal or possibly even slightly better on the lower price CDP.  Don't get me wrong, the Capitole was a beauty in many ways and "analog-like" -- not "analog", but analog-like.  Which is perhaps the whole point TCG is trying to make.

I'm right there with LoneWolf, I do like the detail and the dynamics, at least for certain genres of music as that is what helps recreate some of the sense of live performance -- to my perception and taste, but that's not all there is to it when it comes to listening enjoyment.

I'm still working on my vinyl rig, and I have no intent of not having that option as well, and there are two nice R2R decks waiting in the wings to see if I want to go that route too.

Interesting that DGO should mention "Rumors" as that has been one of the reference disks that I have toted around with me since it came out and I've heard it in many, many systems -- tube, SS, analog, digital, etc. over the years, and that I played many times in the brief interval between when I got the new speakers and the old CDP went away.  I played it again a couple of days ago -- probably at least 5 times on the new, much cheaper, CDP -- and I was just blown away -- it was the clearest, most dynamic, cleanest reproduction of that album I've ever heard. Period.  Yes, there was some slight digital edge, but it didn't detract from my enjoyment at all.  It was the first time I heard how really nice Christine's voice can be -- just never heard it like that before.  Also, the bass line was cleaner and tighter than any other system I've heard it on, and the drum kit sounded more real as well.  Of course when the TT is setup that will be one of the first things to get played, and I'm certain it will sound glorious too but I'll save the speculation on specifics until I actually hear it.

Digital?  Yes, I do like it.  Is it vinyl, no, and sometimes that's good, and sometimes it's not, but it's here to stay and only improve.  So, perhaps I find myself mostly in agreement with TCG here, at least in terms of bigger bucks spent on better mechanical digital sources, though perhaps not to the degree he's happy with.  I do hear differences, sometimes pronounced ones, and that goes for the ultra cheap to the middle of the road just as it does for the differences between the highest end and the middle tier players... but soon I hope to hear what the SB and HD-based playback can do, and then the whole equation is likely to change again .

Interesting topic, and lots of well thought out and intelligent responses to ponder.

The bottom line for me personally is that I don't see myself wanting or needing a mechanical player that is any more than the Onix CD-5 (though I may have it slightly modded to squeeze that last bit of midrange smootheness and take the edge off) and pretty much anything from here out is going to be HD-based and ethernet connected, or... when I'm in the mood, vinyl.

Thanks all for a really great and thoughtful thread -- with a pretty leading title this could have easily erupted into a real flame fest but it has stayed very civil and intelligent discourse.

I love AC!

-- Jim

[jrebman]

Yeah, try 'em (the Dakiom's).  I have the $59 ones, they came out with the (supposedly) upgraded $99 ones after I bought mine.

I met the inventor at CES in 2004 or 2005...he told me the 200-series are just more refined versions of the 100-series.

They take just a bit more of the digital edge off, and sharply better the dynamics and a sense of transient speed of even cheapie players.  They won't make you believe you are listening to good vinyl, however, they do improve what digital does offer. 

Sure, I'll try this.  Why not?  Maybe a Mapleshade PC too.  Could end up doing what I want for less than an op amp/capacitor/resistor transplant, and I won't have to ship it anywhere.

-- Jim

[WEEZ]

Spirit,

Ahh..another John Hillig fan! Yeah, I'll bet his dac is fine....

WEEZ

[Spirit]

Hey WEEZ:
Have you had any dealings with John.
If so, what has he done for you?

[WEEZ]

Spirit,

I have his D-75B Sig. amplifier. It's stupid good.

WEEZ

[JLM]

I left vinyl over 20 years ago (when I stupidly let the turntable drop 4 feet).  It was a nice Thorens with custom tonearm and very nice cart.

But I've never missed the surface noise, isolation issues, lack of dynamics, or shrinking supply of recordings from vinyl.  A friend gave me a very ordinary vintage Thorens turntable, it's sound quality (and the skips induced by poor isolation) was a total joke.  A few years ago a vendor allowed several of us to experience his uber expensive vinyl/speaker setup (he sells electronics) in his freaked out sound room.  I couldn't begin to concentrate on the music for all the surface noise and lack of dynamics. 

The lack of vinyl recordings cannot be debated.  It's the old question of being on the deserted island and chosing between great equipment with one recording or lots of recordings with ordinary equipment.  IMO only audiophiles would choose the former.  So when you add the surface noise (fingersnails on caulkboard), isolation issues, and lack of dynamics (don't vinyl guys ever listen to live music?) I have almost zero understanding or appreciation of vinyl-holics. 


Oh, and since a shot was lodged against single driver speakers, allow me to point out that the essence of music is well within 40 and 10,000 Hz, single drivers provide the definitive point source for ideal imaging (that owners of panel or array speakers can't possible realize), single drivers allow for a coherent sound that no multiple driver design can possibly match, and single driver by default are active systems, with all the inherent advantages (more/deeper/tighter bass, increased dynamics, etc.).


IMO moderators shouldn't be looking for a fight, but this one did.

[rollo]

Gentleman,

              Have been following the thread,very interesting topic
      My two cents.All CDPs do not sound the same period.The more expensive CDPs do sound better,however the difference is small.The difference in price is not small.The return on your money for this improvement is subjective.IF YOU HAVE IT YOU SPEND IT for that subtle difference.We are hard core audiophiles with the desire to own the best sound.We have all overextended our budgets to find the holy grail.Maybe to much so.
      The REAL ISSUE IMO is that the program material itself is the culprit.Not all vinyl is recorded well or CD for that matter.I have experienced goosebumps from both formats,however only when the program material was well engineered.I believe we ALL have had this happen.
       Has anyone listened to any rock or R&B from the 70s on vinyl or CD.You tell me this is listenable.Yes it could be if you buy a reissue from Classic Records or Acoustic Sounds.Has anyone heard the Aqualung reissue from Classic compared to the original.NO CONTEST.This is just one example,there are many.Then there are Reference Recordings CDs,and Classic and AS reissues and Mapleshade.Mostly all very well done.
       We have compared identical reissues on CD and vinyl yo each other and have found the vinyl edition better 8 out of 10 times.The two CDs that we preferred were a blues and rock reissue.Why?Maybe the dynamics of the CD with that kind of music helped.I think so.
       So with a collection of over 1000 LPs and 350 CDs listened through a LinnLP12 with Micro Benz M2 and a Lector CDP7t ,SETs and Pipedreams my ONLY DESIRE is to obtain the elusive well engineered recording wether it be vinyl or CD.
If both formats are available for the desired recording I usually buy both.Listen to both and then decide which format will be my reference listen.
      Most of the time I favor vinyl,remember this is the sound I grew up with.This is another issue in itself.Young people prefer digital,seasoned listeners prefer vinyl.
     So, in the end I guess we are down the same road SUBJECTIVE LANE.
Happy listening and may the goosebumps be with you.
rollo

[PhishPhan]

Interesting read. Both sides make some compelling arguments. But what about those people who grew up in the digital age, collecting Cd's and MP3s. Should we try to find all the music we love on vinyl, when most of it, because it's newer, simply doesn't exist on vinyl? Sure the older bands I listen to can be found on vinyl; Aqualung, ZOSO, and DSOTM records are a dime a dozen at used record stores. I'm sure most of my Miles Davis and John Coltrane stuff can be found on vinyl for a decent price too. But if the newer stuff can be found on vinyl, it's almost always too expensive because it's still in the plastic and it's extremely rare. Why is it extremely rare? Because there's no demand. Most new stuff on vinyl is also quite mainstream. At a more upscale record store I found OK Computer on vinyl for a bargain at $34.99. Gee whiz, should I buy one new vinyl of an album I already own, or three new Cd's or stuff I've never heard?

The choice is simple for me. My wallet cannot support a newfound vinyl addiction.

Just my $0.02.

[Whitese]

Spirit,

I have his D-75B Sig. amplifier. It's stupid good.

WEEZ

I had the plane jane D75B in mono with the SP-1B and it was a tremendous system...stupidly even more so when you get then used...for the $$$ impossible to beat...

[Spirit]

Spirit,

I have his D-75B Sig. amplifier. It's stupid good.

WEEZ

I had the plane jane D75B in mono with the SP-1B and it was a tremendous system...stupidly even more so when you get then used...for the $$$ impossible to beat...

John is the guy who taught me to leery of  brand-name overhype. 

[TheChairGuy]

Just a quick halt in the topic here (it is now 6 pages and the original intent sometimes goes askew with 'fast' topics involving many people) for the following statement from the Topic originator (me).

Point 1
I was an audiophile and general member here at AC well before I ever became a Global Moderator (or any type of Moderator).  As such, please respond to me as you would another general member - I deserve no / zero deferential treatment based on any Global Moderator title alone.

I am just somebodies Husband/Son/Father, an audiophile/enthusiast, businessman, 43 year old male living in San Fran-area.  It really is quite incidental that I am a Global Moderator, all in all.  I just raised my hand one too many times and volunteered for duties around here once too often that I find myself in this role.  I do not own any part of AC, I do not get paid or get any discounts or perks on audio purchases because of it. 

Really, please just converse with me as you would another member.  I should not get and do not deserve any 'special' treatment or tip-toeing around topics you disagree vehemently with me on


Point 2
I've already stated twice in this topic that I don't actually believe that ALL CD players sound the same.  'rollo' summarized things above well enough on that subject.

The topic name is a riff on a 30 year old statement by Len Feldman of Audio in regards to amplifiers: 'All amplifiers sound the same'.  I don't actually beleive they all sound the same; however, my experience has taught me that all CD players do nothing more than approximate music; they do not actually re-create it as nearly as vinyl can.

So, CD players do indeed sound different...but as none of them make music, or are inherently musical, then it's a moot point as to 'sameness'. 

They DON'T all sound the same, but none of them makes music - so they might as well be the same 

[lonewolfny42]

John......Besides the CDP/Dac setup you owned, could you give us all an example of one you thought sounded better than the rest ? One you have heard. I do remember you saying you enjoyed the setup at Brian's (VMPS shootout). Thanks.....