[miklorsmith]

Mike,

I've read your HAHAHA post several times....and before I post what I think I read you to say...would you care to clarify your point?

I can see how that could have come across as negative.  If so, I apologize.  I just disagreed about the original message, nothing more.

John, I didn't know your setup had changed  - my bad.  That would indeed make a significant difference.  Yep, most NOS DACs are rolled in the treble and soft in the bass.  The Altmann isn't.  It might be JUST the ticket for you.  Brad's review should be out soon.  Speaking of which, I had dinner and drinks with him in Seattle last night, a fine fellow indeed.

I wouldn't doubt that the rolled response of SD speakers has something to do with why they can sound good with midgrade digital gear.  However, they are also more efficient, coherent, and tuneful than a lot of typical stuff.  Digital's problem is jitter, no doubt, but smart folks are working hard to obliterate it.  The treble is the most obvious place for it to surface, and even with tubes I think ribbon tweeters will magnify any shortcomings.  A soft dome would likely be a tad more forgiving though you'd lose some of the air ribbons create.  Tradeoffs, all.

There are few or no absolutes in this crazy hobby, just ears and opinions.  FWIW I can listen to my hard-drive-based digital rig for hours and hours with zero fatigue.  It's not perfect and that's OK, nothing is.

[WEEZ]

Frank, I heard your Ultra dac at RMAF; and I would have to say, that (for digital)  it was really fine. Were the Telarc recordings you were comparing done in analog or digital? The Telarc's that I have were digital to start with.

TCG,

Yeah, one can read a lot on internet forums and published reviews about how differents systems are assembled to make digital more listenable. Most of the 'solutions' are to 'give up' something in order to reach nirvana with digital. Damnit, that just goes to show how flawed the medium must be to most listeners. For crissakes, if you gotta 'mask something..it must be wrong to begin with. I always thought that high-end audio was the pursuit of more resolution, not less. Analog ain't perfect either.

Hey, digital is IT today. Fewer and fewer studios recording in analog. Sad, really. This hobby used to be about music..now it's about computer media and bits (or bytes). It is what it is.

WEEZ

[pacifico]

Well you guys talked me out of buying a tubed CD player or any CD player for that matter. My relatively cheap NAD has kept me happy for some time and was an improvement over the sony/technics stuff I used to have. Nice to hear that spending muchg more on a CD player brings on diminishing returns quite rapidly. I think I will just concentrate on some type computer playback. I can't give up my CDs  and I certainly can't afford to replace my CDs as vinyl.

While I understand alot of what's going on here. I am still relatively new to audiofoolia. I am actually about to buy my first tube amp next week. Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't the tubed gear of today improved on both ends of the audio spectrum.

One funny story. i went to a very reputable dealer in VA, whom is known for their tubed gear. I was looking at a pair of spendors or pro acs at the time. they hooked them up to a very good system. It must have been their setup, which did use a cd player , because I thought that these speakers were not much of an improvement over my paradigm monitors ($500), even through their expensive setup. Needless to say I walked out empty handed. Ihave upgraded from the paradigms and what I have certainly sounds better than what I heard that day.Of course this is all subjective but it made me feel that my very modestly priced system offered a whole lot in terms of sound quality.

Bottom line; from my limited experience, it seems that systems are limited mostly by the source (maybe not at the bottom end). Any decent CD palyer likely presents material in the same way, sure there are differences in nuance and some levels of resolution but I am in general agreement with TCG. Problem is, there's not much I can do about it.

Respectfully, AP

[WEEZ]

Mike,

No, it wasn't so much 'negative'.. it was just that it was all over the place. Sounded like you were advocating that certain things have to be done from a "system" standpoint to make digital palettable. (sp?)

We should have different playback systems for digital and analog?

WEEZ

[TheChairGuy]

Lest anyone get's too riled with me for posting all of this stuff, I want to clarify a few things.

The topic name of 'All CD Players sound the same' is a bit of sensationalism.  Hey, I'm a Marketing man, it came easy to me    Really, tho, I couldn't fit my real message in the space provided, that is:

'Don't spend a lot on any CD playback, it is flawed from the outset, no well intentioned engineer or designer can improve on the first flawed 50% of the recording chain of events'

I am not all inferring that vinyl playback is un-flawed, or that it is in all areas superior to CD playback...it is only that the sum of the superior 'parts' (CD playback inherent convenience, no noise, greater dynamics) doesn't equal the 'whole' (vinyl playback even marred with clicks, pops, mistracking, non-ergonomic nature, inferior dynamic range, & higher noise levels). 

Bottom line: Albums sound like music.....CD's sound like they are approximating it in the vast majority of instances.

pacifico - I'm glad I could save you a few bucks.  Go put your hard earned cash in better speakers and or amplification.  Or if you are willing, go buy a OPPO, Cambridge, ROTEL or Pioneer cheapie DVD player that plays serviceable CD and (inherently) very good DVD-A, add a Dakiom (damned if I know fully why this widget works) and call it a digital day    Earmark what is saved towards an IRA or 401K/403B for your retirement. 

Further note: I meant no offense at all to either Steve Nugent/Empirical or Louis/Omega (or Frank van Alstine, for that matter) in mentioning them.  All of this is only my opinion and experience....but I wish that others learn by it and spend less...or at least, spend more wisely on speakers and amplification that pursuing the foolhardy dream of reaching some state of digital nirvana with CD playback.

I remain open to different outcomes, but 20 years of experience weighs heavily on this subject.

[Daygloworange]

TCG,

You sound thoroughly frustrated by CD. That sucks. I am curious though, as to what you feel is absent. I had the opportunity a little while back to hear 4 totally different vinyl based systems in a local dealer's showroom after hours in a open house to TAAS members. Some really nice rigs too. It was at MKOM (My Kind Of Music), here in Toronto. You can see pics of the rooms in my Gallery.

I was really interested in the invite, as I never really heard vinyl in a serious rig before. As it so happens, I had spent the previous night listening to Fleetwood Mac's "Rumours" album on CD in my rig, all night. I really love this record, and felt like listening to it over and over that night.

So when John at MKOM had it on vinyl, I just had to hear it. He played it on a couple of systems for me. It does sound different, but, IMHO, I don't know what the vinyl is doing for you that CD isn't.

Just for the record, as a long time musician that has been recording for over 20 years, I started on 4 track cassette multitracks, then went to 8 track multitrack reel to reels on 1/4" tape, all the way to 16 track multitrack on 1/2" tape, mastered on 1/4" tape reel to reel. Been digital sampling since the 12 bit days in the late 80's. I'm now up to 24 bit digital recording in my studio, and never been more pleased with the faithfullness of playback, and ultra low noisefloor. It's only when I go back to the reel to reel now when I notice how much coloration and roll off I was experiencing during the recording process and trying so hard to overcome for years.

And believe me, I'm a purist in many regards. My guitar rig is all vintage, and will probably be so till the day I die.

Just curious.

Cheers

[WEEZ]

Who's riled?

Pacifico,

Frank's dacs are pretty damn good, really. If yah gotta do digital only....just use the digital output from your NAD....and you're good to go. And I hear yah re: your listening experience at your dealer....probably poor acoustics rather than poor gear, though...

Dayglow,

It's a moot point now, I guess....is there any analog recording done at all anymore? (dimension and space is the main difference. less 'closet' like with analog,,,)

WEEZ

[miklorsmith]

Weez, my all-over-the-place post was merely pointing to some technologies that are doing a better job than the current main stream.  The awful digital feeling that coats everything in so many digital rigs can be avoided by carefully choosing technologies that have learned to avoid this pernicious problem that plagues digital playback.

And, of course, it's possible that preamplifier, amplifier, and speaker choices might vary depending on what medium is being optimized.  For instance, the high tech drivers might be good for vinyl, don't know, but for my setup I really like paper/natural material cones.  Part of this is the inherent cleanliness (sterility?) of my starting point.

[pacifico]

I think this has been a very friendly discussion. At some point I will be considering a dac but the options have certainly been daunting. I was thinking that I would like to hook up my computer to a dac to my amp at some point but I am not averese to straight going through my CD player.

Somehting like this will be my purchase next year. Right now I am moving on up from my NAD amplifier, which has been very good to a Cayin.

My soon to be current setup:

Cayin AMP
Response Audio speakers ( I have grown to like them alot after breaking them in)
NAD bee CD player

[Daygloworange]

Dayglow,

It's a moot point now, I guess....is there any analog recording done at all anymore? (dimension and space is the main difference. less 'closet' like with analog,,,)

There are very few people recording on analog tape. But what the trend has been since digital started is like this. They will take a microphone output and run it into a high-end pre amp straight to the digital recorder. Just one gain stage, that's it. The console (mixer) is just for monitoring the playback for overdubbing and final mixdown.

What there has been is the birth of " Lunchboxes". These are standalone microphone pre amp and Eq modules. Years ago, people started tearing out the input modules out of vintage consoles and putting them in little "lunchbox" sized chassis, and stockpiling different modules from some of the most favored vintage consoles ( Neve, API, etc) and used those to add what they termed as "warmth" to the digital format.

In doing so, they've eliminated the tons of gain stages they use to go through to get a signal to tape. Ever seen a schematic of the signal path on a recording console? It's atrocious. Just by that practice alone, the recording "habits" of engineers today is light years ahead of the norm of old. This isn't as true for minimalist classical recordings of yesteryear, as they were very much more pristine, in terms of signal path.

Cheers

[mfsoa]

Pacifico,
I'm going to speculate a bit here because I don't have that much experience with different digital sources.
But it's up to each person to decide where that diminishing return curve really starts to level off.

My guess is that there's still much to be gained by spending a bit more to improve on the "relatively cheap NAD" as you put it, though I'm sure this was a big step up from what you had, as you say.

Just to pick some from the forum here (no, I haven't heard these, hence the speculation) I'd guess that a Channel Islands DAC would be a good step up when coupled to the NAD.

And one can only assume, based on the dude's reputation for quality stuff, that the AVA dacs would also be a major improvement if hooked to the NAD. I'm thinking night and day stuff, probably. (Yes, my interest in the Ultra is definitely tweaked!)

Now beyond the $1500 for AVA's top dac, I won't even guess at but my feeling is that at this price point you are talking more about "different" than "better/worse".

Even in the cheaper digital realm there are differences that you may find more or less suited to your taste. I have one of the popular Rotel 1072 CDPs, yet I prefer an older Rotel 971 that I modded myself (miraculously it turned on and actually still works - It was my first time taking a soldering iron to anything). When I upgrade to an external DAC, I fully expext to greatly improve the quality of my digital playback.

I'm not disputing what TCG feels about digital, or saying that for $XYZ you can cure all digititis. Just that I think the cost/performance curve is still somewhat linear in the NAD/Rotel etc. price point and that within this range there is likely something that stands out as a real imrovement that's worth the extra $$.


But how to find it, that's the problem (and the fun!)

[pacifico]

Mfsoa,

When I was writing my last post, I was actually slightly conflicted. Yes the sound coming from system ahs imporved as I've invested in my soucre cd player; So in some sense Iknow that spending more will certainly get you better sound up to some point and I am sure that I didn't actually portray that. On the other hand, learning from other's experiences here..It seems like saving two to three years to get a $5000 CD player isn't worth the investment. I am certainly not averse to investing in my humble system but would also like to use other's experiences here to help guide my system along to avoid $$$$ traps.

What I am waiting for is the golden oracle just like everyone else. My definition (for now and partly based on what I've learned over the past two years here) is an automated source that holds all of my music and plays as close to live as I can get.

Personally I still can't understand why spending $$$$$$$$ (15K+) on any system is a good idea if you're ultimately limited by the information format/data that you put into it (CD or vinyl). Some engineer may one day will come up with something that is close to holographic and even some then will still not be happy. There comes a point where you just have acceppt that you will never get a concert hall in your house unless you're bill gates and can afford to invite the Rolling Stones over every night. I don't think that would happen even in bill gates' world BTW.

Thanks to all and have a good night-AP

[TheChairGuy]

Daygloworange,

Actually, I'm not at all frustrated with CD any longer...I made peace with it's inherent inadequacies in the last few months.  Prior to that, tossing wasted dollar after wasted dollar towards an ever elusive goal, was frustrating. 

Nowadays, I'd say I'm liberated from the mediocrity of CD and listen to them with far more interest....knowing that there is likely no better to be achieved.  Tho I took a $3200 clubbing 'downsizing' my CD front end (from $4500 to $1300 I got for it).....I'm enjoying my $150.00 front end quite well, thank you    Part of that balance went into funding my HSA/Health Saving Account of $5650.00 this year (and my wife's $2400 HSA plan). 

In the US we have such investment-type vehicles - the $5650.00 + $2400.00 ($8050.00) comes right off your topline income creating a tax savings for 2007.

So downsizing my digital front end is like a gift that keeps giving with little of no downsides 

[mfsoa]

Pacifico,
Cool - Just didn't want you to give up the quest based only on a few opinions here!

[pacifico]

I just did the same for my daughter's daycare. It's like getting a $1500 bonus.

[Daygloworange]

TCG,

I'll give you a big thumbs up for going all the way with mods to your CDP.   A lot of people don't go the extent you did before deciding that it wasn't what they were looking for.

Sounds like you've come full circle though.  

Cheers

[kevb]

TCG,

Did the same thing....downsized and downgraded - a lot.  I'm down to the Consonance CD120 Linear now for well under $1K, and that is where I intend to stay.  In fact, it is better than anything I have used up to and including the Talk Electronics 3.1B that used to be my price and joy source...the CD120 Linear is digital done right to me.

The problem is (and has always been for digital) as you spend more, the promise of better sound just does not equate to the disproportionate amount of cash you have to spend to get there....and you never get enough return (as far as better sound goes) for your cash when it domes to digital.  I found greater dissatisfaction with more expensive digital purely because it isn't leaps and bounds better than cheap digital, so there was that omnipresent gnawing feeling of having wasted my money.

Truth be known, I'm still flabbergasted at the performance of the Samsung HD841 I picked up for $30 shipped on eBay.  If I didn't have the CD120 Linear, I'd probably have stopped there instead (have it on ball-bearing isolation).

[TheChairGuy]

If you bought a Dakiom with that Samsung, you'd be selling your Consanance right now and enjoying the $$ (can't be sure of that, but likely so). 

Then again, your Consanance will likely be bettered by the Dakiom, too (for whatever reason, the Sony/MSB was not...not every player responds to it, but the vast majority do).  The Sony, on it's own did absolutely respond positively to it...but something about the MSB hooked up as DAC did not allow it to.

I have them on my amps, too....small benefit there, less than the one on the player.

[JANDG]

Take the output stage out of the picture on a NOS DAC, feed it good clean power, many cheap ways to do this & you got about as good as it gets for digital IMO...op-amps in the signal path cause utter maddness of non musical nonsence. I would NOT spend over 250 on a DAC of any kind..I would end up modding it with a cap coupling or trannie coupled, direct off the I/V conversion from DAC & done..I have done this with any CDP also I have owned , included the highly liked CDP of way back ..the JVC xl-z1050, I have 2 of these in output stage by-pass mode,, they smash the original.. my simplton conclusion is ..op-amps just palin suck.. I have rolled many & output stages of digital gear is actually where most everything goes wrong..get rid of that crap & it can actually be listenable.. It isn't vinyl by no means, but it can get very listenable.........without glare & edge. I have spent the last year with a by-passed output DAC-AH ran into Auricaps & out.. If it blows ...I will just by a new board for 80.00 or so & got a brand new killer DAC for many mour hrs...Heck I still use a modded Tosh 3950 is a bedroom system.. it isn't near as good as the AH, but does just fine...NO edge or glare...also by-passed..I will do a lundahl trannie couple one of these days..but in no hurry....the AH does me well...I have a friend that when DAC crazy last year..spent way over 10k on them,,,He use 's the exact DAC-AH in same mode as me.....Conclusion again from them is WAY to much crap in the analog out stage...if your amp or pre will alllow....ditch it all, & cap couple or trannie out..

[kevb]

TCG,

Well, I just might have to try the Dakiom on the Sammy then....   Seriously, I'm always game for low cost improvements!!  Find the basic Samsung sound a little on the thin side, with some splashiness in the highs - but much better than I had imagined it could sound on redbook.

Re: the CD120 Linear - it does what no digital has done for me...and that is get the highs essentially correct.    That is why I am so smitten by it, and have little desire to change.  I have gone through at least 20 digital front ends in the last 6 years, and have sold them all out of dissatisfaction.  The telling thing for me is that I have had this player here for several months, and I still want to listen to CD's every day...and the rest of the time I'm thinking of what music to I'm in the mood to listen to when I get home.  That wasn't the case before, as I got sucked into the 'Audiophile vortex' of only listening to the best discs over and over because of how they sounded in my system.  Now (finally) I'm not doing that....I've escaped Audiophile's evil clutches and can pick any disc out of my collection and know I will get a first rate performance - regardless of whether or not the actual sound of the disc is any good.  Most of the 'audiophile approved' discs have long been relegated to the non-play list.


Great topic!!  I'll order up a set of Dakioms and report back after using them on the Sammy....