50% discount Active XO/EQ system for OB or boxed speakers and subs

JohninCR · « **on:** 16 Feb 2007, 09:10 pm »

Jan at www.Thuneau.com authorized a 50% discount for AC members if I can put together a group of at least 12 together. I've been using the system since they went live about 6 months ago, and it works great and is simple to use for a silly low price. Whether you need to integrate a sub, you want to go full blown active multiway with EQ and phase correction, you just need to EQ your OB system, or you want to be like the pros easily design and hear the results of an XO before buying the passive components, these programs are the way to go. To me, a top quality active XO DSP program for as little as $29.50 is a no-brainer.

Anyone who is interested, send me a PM.

dwk · « **Reply #1 on:** 16 Feb 2007, 10:58 pm »

Cool. I was in on the Beta program for this, and continue to use it. I think it's amazing at full price; at 50% off it's just silly. Anyone with a decent quality multi-channel soundcard should be all over this.

konut · « **Reply #2 on:** 16 Feb 2007, 11:28 pm »

I'm curious about this. Went to the site and there was very little info about hardware reqs. For instance recommended sound cards, both internal and/or firewire, USB, speed of proccessor, RAM requirements, etc.

bikes and beats · « **Reply #3 on:** 17 Feb 2007, 12:06 am »

How would this work? Is there a microphone included? How does one implement the revised crossover and EQ once optimum balance is ascertained by the software? Do you need one of those DEQX things? I'm confused! Can you tell I've never tried anything like this before? And, I'm a MAC guy so I'm not used to having to think!
-MikeO

JohninCR · « **Reply #4 on:** 17 Feb 2007, 12:18 am »

Quote from: konut on 16 Feb 2007, 11:28 pm

I'm curious about this. Went to the site and there was very little info about hardware reqs. For instance recommended sound cards, both internal and/or firewire, USB, speed of proccessor, RAM requirements, etc.

You need to be running XP and have an ASIO compatible card. I think you need at least a P3. I run a 3ghz P4 with an M-audio Firewire 410 (about $250), but I wanted maximum outs from the get go. I've run 4ways with it without knowing anything about XO's.

JohninCR · « **Reply #5 on:** 17 Feb 2007, 12:29 am »

Quote from: bikes and beats on 17 Feb 2007, 12:06 am

How would this work? Is there a microphone included? How does one implement the revised crossover and EQ once optimum balance is ascertained by the software? Do you need one of those DEQX things? I'm confused! Can you tell I've never tried anything like this before? And, I'm a MAC guy so I'm not used to having to think!
-MikeO

Mike,

This is software that essentially makes multiple copies of your digital signal. You filter each copy however you want using your PC to XO and or EQ, whether it's a sub, woofers, mids, tweeters, or for an entire speaker. The program displays graphically what you are doing to the signal and hear the changes as you make them just by clicking your mouse. Then those filtered signals are set to specific outputs on your multi-out soundcard. eg I start playlists on my computer or send a signal to the input on my soundcard. The filtered signals go to the DACs on my soundcard, which connect to my amps, then my drivers. This gives me a clean digital signal for each set of drivers, with a DAC, an IC, an amp channel, speaker wire, and driver. Nothing else is in the pathway.

You'll have to wait though, because it's not MAC compatible yet. You have to run XP.

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #6 on:** 17 Feb 2007, 12:45 pm »

Ok, this sounds very interesting. However, I (like many others) have a few questions.

The song could be generated from the hard drive, or an external CD player inputting into the PC then tweak it on screen. The signal then outputs HOW from the soundcard to a receiver? I see many ways of doing this. A fellow could have several discrete channels inputting into the 'direct input' with each having their own cable/wire, or an optical output.
Here's the back of my receiver. Upper left corner is the 8 channel direct input:
http://harmankardon.com/back.aspx?prod=AVR%20645&cat=REC&sType=S&Region=USA&Country=US&Language=ENG&ImgName=AVR645B.jpg

What would fellow look for in a sound card, simply an input for the mic, another input (RCA/optical??) for other sources? Does anyone have soundcard options? (I'm running a several month old Dell XPS400). Price ranges??

I've thought about putting the PC in the rack with the rest of my toys and getting a wireless mouse and keyboard, then running a cable back to the desk for the monitor. That way, I could take the wireless stuff over to my HT seating instead of the PC chair. But then what do I do with the printer/scanner?

The idea of a HTPC intrigues me, this would be one more step in that direction.

Being such a radical departure from the norm, I'm hesitant due to lack of knowledge.
I have a lot more questions, I just don't know what they are yet.

How long is Jan going to have this price?

John, in your email you mentioned the base version, which version are you using?
Bob

JohninCR · « **Reply #7 on:** 17 Feb 2007, 05:44 pm »

Bob,

Good questions. There are guys running full speed ahead with the software and using it to control 7 multi-way speakers and a sub. The discreet channel separation is done in their computer, which is common. Then they run multiple instances of the program at the same time, and control multiple soundcards. I'm not ready for that level of complexity, quite yet, though with those direct inputs on your HT receiver, yours may be simple. Though I have the full compliment of programs, I primarily use the Light version. I've played with the full version and phase correction. It's something I definitely will use, but I realize that I need proper measurements before tackling complex XO's and their phase correction. Since Thuneau is coming out with a measurement program with direct tie-in, I'm waiting instead of going through the steep learning curve of Speaker Workshop, to generate the FRD's (Frequency Response Distribution) to input into the software.

Let's talk about music and your setup specifically. You have 15" coaxes on OB that have XO's you like. You have your Augie bass augmentation drivers also in an open alignment. Both driver types might benefit from EQ. You probably want to sheild your coax from low bass content. You definitely need a seamless cross from your Augies to your coaxes, and might also want to add a rumble filter to limit excursion. This would be quite simple, plus if you have some room modal peaks, you could notch those out too. Your Augies are further from you than the coaxes, no problem, that time difference is fixable. Plus you can change anything on the fly without even turning the volume down (if you're careful, especially with tweeter only outputs).

To accomplish this, you need a soundcard with at least 4 analog outputs, though you might be able to trick one with just a stereo analog out and digital out. You may even be able to use the soundcard you already have just to control the Augies, and get a feel for how powerful this software really is. When you do get ready to purchase a soundcard, stick with something known to work. Then it's pretty close to plug and play. My Firewire 410 card, was a bit pricey at around $250, but it gives me up to 10 outputs along mic input with preamp, so I won't need anything more later. If I go with multiway speakers all around the HT, then I'll just add cheaper multi-out soundcards for controlling the surrounds and rear speakers.

This is just turning your computer into a powerful and transparent active XO/EQ system with virtually unlimited flexibility and expandability. Using it as your source too is another topic that I strongly believe in, which adds another dimension to music convenience.

mcgsxr · « **Reply #8 on:** 18 Feb 2007, 08:26 pm »

Another question - I understand that this s/w actually DOES the work of the Xover, does it also/can it also be used to model an Xover?

IE - could I plug in the various specs of the main and sub drivers, and model the expected FR with this s/w?

Thanks,

JohninCR · « **Reply #9 on:** 18 Feb 2007, 09:34 pm »

Quote from: mcgsxr on 18 Feb 2007, 08:26 pm

Another question - I understand that this s/w actually DOES the work of the Xover, does it also/can it also be used to model an Xover?
IE - could I plug in the various specs of the main and sub drivers, and model the expected FR with this s/w?
Thanks,

Mark,

The light version is so cheap that yes you might want to use it only for that. The default graphic is a flat response for each driver. The input isn't driver parameters, it's FRDs (Frequency Response Distributions), essentially the numbers for frequency and db that when plotted graphically form the FR's that we see for drivers. Ideally you'd want measurements, but they're often available from manufacturers. I've yet to do a measurement or import an FRD, but I find the flat graphs quite helpful as a starting point.

Since I use OB speakers, I know I have a downward sloping response that I need to compensate. Then, since the system takes phase shift into account you can see the effects of different XO slopes and Qs of the filters, which is especially important in the overlapping region of the drivers responses. Playing around with it has been a real eye opener for me, because I could see the significant difference between Butterworth and LinkwitzReily filters affect response. It's also readily apparent why subs are often difficult to implement, since the phase shift can easily cause a big null in response.

Maybe there's some free software or box modelling program that does the same thing though. Other than limited use of 1st order filters, I always treated XO's like the plague and never learned anything about them. Now I don't have to, but still have a much better understanding.

kfr01 · « **Reply #10 on:** 18 Feb 2007, 09:54 pm »

He needs more information on his website. Real examples. System diagrams, etc.

Getting practical information second-hand is strange.

konut · « **Reply #11 on:** 18 Feb 2007, 10:26 pm »

I agree. It's pretty sparse. If he wants to expand his market beyond pro-audio he needs more comprehesive examples as well as recommended equipment, screen shots, typical set ups, etc. As I've only got a 1.73 Ghz Centrino laptop with 512 RAM, I can't use it at this time. I'm holding out till Apple upgrades the MacMini to Core2Duo and Leopard. Is there a time limit on this offer?

JohninCR · « **Reply #12 on:** 18 Feb 2007, 10:36 pm »

That kind of stuff is why I volunteered to help Jan out. He got some great software, but he's a tech guy, not a marketer. I was waiting for about 2 years for some easy to use computer XO software to come out. I'm not a computer jockey, otherwise I would have used some of the free stuff available. I just happened across it in a post on another forum right after it came out of beta testing, so I pounced on it. At the time I was waiting for the Behringer units to become available again, but I'm extremely pleased I went this route.

JohninCR · « **Reply #13 on:** 18 Feb 2007, 10:53 pm »

Quote from: konut on 18 Feb 2007, 10:26 pm

I agree. It's pretty sparse. If he wants to expand his market beyond pro-audio he needs more comprehesive examples as well as recommended equipment, screen shots, typical set ups, etc. As I've only got a 1.73 Ghz Centrino laptop with 512 RAM, I can't use it at this time. I'm holding out till Apple upgrades the MacMini to Core2Duo and Leopard. Is there a time limit on this offer?

You need to run XP, so it may not work for you. Right now the software is kind of like you need to know that you want it. Later when the things you guys mentioned are in place, I'm sure the price will go up. It's just too powerful to be priced so low, especially when you consider using the Abritrator portion of the software which corrects the phase shift of the XO's resulting in a transient perfect speaker. Jan's busy working on the measurement software to tie into the bundle. That's what I want, so let him fix the website later.

He asked to structure it like a group buy. If we get him a good group, I can probably talk him into a standing discount for ACers. I'll post a deadline, if there is one, once we have enough interested parties.

kfr01 · « **Reply #14 on:** 18 Feb 2007, 11:09 pm »

This stuff is actually pretty exciting. We're talking Tact / DEQX functionality, greatly discounted.

Check out the user guide for the primary product:

http://www.thuneau.com/allocator_user_guide.pdf

A few things I'm not clear on:
Do we need separate measurement software?
If not, is measurement conducted in real time?
I.e., can we see the frequency response results of Allocator changes as we mess around?

Edit: Upon further reading, it looks like measurement is something separate, but, from JohninCR's posts, I see it is something the creator is working on.

Edit: Also, is volume control easy from within the software, or is it still advisable to have some sort of 6 channel analog preamp?

Me personally, I will wait until measurement capability is built into the product... but this is definitely something I will try out when that happens.

Thanks!

konut · « **Reply #15 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 12:07 am »

Quote from: JohninCR on 18 Feb 2007, 10:53 pm

[ You need to run XP, so it may not work for you. Right now the software is kind of like you need to know that you want it. Later when the things you guys mentioned are in place, I'm sure the price will go up. It's just too powerful to be priced so low, especially when you consider using the Abritrator portion of the software which corrects the phase shift of the XO's resulting in a transient perfect speaker. Jan's busy working on the measurement software to tie into the bundle. That's what I want, so let him fix the website later.

He asked to structure it like a group buy. If we get him a good group, I can probably talk him into a standing discount for ACers. I'll post a deadline, if there is one, once we have enough interested parties.

The Intel Macs can also run XP.

The Core2Duos are faster than the current crop. There are other softwares out there that do what this does but are more money. I'm definetly interested but I'd want to know, ahead of time, if this bundle would work on the Intel Macs without using Rosetta and if future upgrades would be included as well. There are hardware solutions that do the same thing, as you well know, without the use of a computer but need tweeking to use in a home environment. While this offers more flexibility the hardware required is a bit daunting to those not used to this kind of thing. The resistance that you face is with audiophiles who just don't want to deal with a computer or CDs, period. Look at the 'All CDs players sound the same' and 'Why use a server' threads to see what I mean. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your efforts on our behalf, it's just that you're well ahead of the curve on this type of thing. Don't get too frustrated with the Luddites.

JohninCR · « **Reply #16 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 02:51 am »

Konut,

I'm with you. To get serious attention, it probably needs the whole package (laptop, soundcard, remote) all set up and ready to plug into the amps. Then insert CD and it automatically rips (better would be preloading the buyers collection). Last but not least a $2-3K price tag. I've thought about doing something like that ever since I started using it, but I have too much work already to be starting some kind of audio related business.

My thought here was really more for the OB guys, who really do need it, and a more into at least experimenting with DIY. The alternative is inferior hardware solutions. Start with a little EQ, and a 1st order cross for a bass augmentation driver to get their toes wet, and learn from there. Changing a soundcard for is an easy enough task for anyone who owns a phillips screwdriver.

kfr01,

Regarding measurements, I've never done one in my life and have been using Allocator for 6 months, mostly just 2-ways, but also a few 3-ways and a 4-way, all tuned by ear. I'm sure they're not perfectly flat, but they sound great to me. Yes you can see graphically and hear the changes you make as you do it. Yes there's a master control volume. I have 2 setting for my amps, normal and loud, then control volume at the computer. It's my understanding that as long as you don't go more than 20db or so of attenuation, that the any loss of resolution is inaudible.

Jan told me the add-on measuring program will take a couple of months, so maybe sometime in April. I'd expect a significant price change though, so if minimal cost is a factor, now's the time. The system is fully functional, but wanting to wait until everything is tied up in a nice little bow is completely understandable. I may try another measuring in the meantime, once I wrap up a few construction projects. I remember seeing a $30 measuring program that appeared to be easy to use. All I really need are FRDs on all my drivers in a couple of different alignments to do everything I want. I'm more anxious to measure the results of my tuning by ear than anything else.

Mark in NL · « **Reply #17 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 09:16 pm »

Ha! My first post here

I am playing wit OB speakers and have a hard time to get the filtering and eq-ing right. The baffle-driver combination always throw the FR off in a way I can't predict.
I use Goodmans 15" woofs in a U-frame (read:box with hacked backside) and a small collection of widerange drivers, mostly 50'-60's Philips. And some Fostex Fe103S & FE207E units as well. It's quite a hassle to change the setup from one driver to another.
So the active XO/EQ might be just the ticket for me...No more fiddling with (expensive) filterhardware and analog EQ..
I'm mentally ready for this next step. I have a spare pc (Intel 1GHz PIII) that can hopefully do the job.
The onboard sound is just ok for 'sound', no more. So I need a better soundcard as well. http://www.thuneau.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=104
(Club3D Theatron)
This would be in my budget, it goes for about US$50 here in NL. Any comments on that?

Anyways, the important message is:

@ JohninCR: -Please count me in for the group buy-

Cheers and happy listening,
Mark

JohninCR · « **Reply #18 on:** 19 Feb 2007, 11:07 pm »

Mark,

Radian bragged about that soundcard after modding, but I'm not certain he got it
working with Allocator. It sounded like he never tried the digital loop. eg on mine,
my computer sends everything to the soundcard digital out. I loop that back to
the digital in on the soundcard where Allocator picks up the signal. My card has
optical and coax digital inputs, so I still have a digital input to the system if I need it.

You'll love Allocator for playing around with OB's especially since it sounds like you change
drivers frequently. No more inductors or caps, and changes in seconds while you listen.
It will definitely be a new toy for you.

John

kfr01 · « **Reply #19 on:** 20 Feb 2007, 04:13 am »

Quote from: JohninCR on 19 Feb 2007, 02:51 am

The system is fully functional, but wanting to wait until everything is tied up in a nice little bow is completely understandable.

I would like everything tied up in a nice little bow, thank you.