What's your favorite turntable under $1000....

vinyl anachronist · « **Reply #40 on:** 23 Mar 2007, 01:52 am »

Quote from: WEEZ on 23 Mar 2007, 12:43 am

vinyl anachronist,

I agree, but the point of the article..and this thread..is 'under $1000'. I fully suspect that anyone looking to get into vinyl at this price would do well to consider KAB.

HOWEVER, , "creature on steroids" does strike me as 'over the top' just a bit. And I've read all the Asylum raves....I guess it's whatever floats your boat. The Asylum raved about modded Toshiba DVD players too, as the holy grail for CD playback..if that says anything. (they ARE nice video players..)

WEEZ

Well, my point was even I might prefer the KAB 1200 to Music Halls. MH isn't the only game in town when it comes to sub-$1000 turntables. If he had compared the KAB 1200 to a Rega P3 or a SOTA Comet or a Clearaudio Emotion or a Nottingham Horizon...

Just for fun, I went on the KAB website the other day, and started ordering a 1210 with all of the goodies, and the total came to almost $2000. Now, let's take THAT table, and have him do a comparison with other $2000 tables such as a Michell Tecnodec or a Rega P5 with PSU or a VPI Scout or a Funk Firm Vector.

I think he would have come to different conclusions.

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #41 on:** 23 Mar 2007, 02:22 am »

Quote from: Psychicanimal on 23 Mar 2007, 12:08 am

Quote from: mcrespo71 on 22 Mar 2007, 07:56 pm
I would be interested in reading more direct comparisons between this KAB deck and others. The statement by psychicanimal the "creature on steroids" is as good as 5K belt drives- was this comparison actually done? If so, what tables? Same system? Same arm? Similar cartridge? etc.

Some people have done it in the Asylum, Alex Yakovlev has a very extensive thread in the Audiogon archives.

Shootouts are not needed. The attributes of a modded 1200 or a TT with similar speed/rotational stability are not easy to forget. Remember, only 50% of the music is in the vinyl record: the time domain component rests on the TT's speed/rotational stability. Now, if someone is really into what I despectively call 'analog sound' they'll never like something that's closer to the recording. If you give it some serious thought you'll understand. Once a person gets to learn what stylus drag does, things change for the better. It's hard...like convincing someone who's used to cheap Lambrusco wine w/ screw caps to appreciate Chilean Cabernet Sauvignon.

Fania has fast percussion Latin music reissues on virgin vinyl: play them on a modded 1200. Then take the record wherever you want.

***

I have a Roksan Xerxes XX with the TMS 2 Uber Power Supply that is dead on in terms of speed stability- with the arm down accounting for stylus drag and using a proper strobe. However, it really doesn't sound very similar to my friends Kuzma that also measures perfect in terms of speed stability, so there are obviously more parameters to the sound of a TT than speed stability. I guess the one thing I can say is they both sound very good- the Roksan having better timing and the Kuzma having more scale and weight.

TONEPUB · « **Reply #42 on:** 23 Mar 2007, 02:53 am »

I couldn't agree more!!

There are so many factors that have an effect the sound of a table, if you can
find something you love, stop shopping and just enjoy the music! (or go record
shopping. of course...)

Having been in this industry for a very long time though, there are certain people
that really like the quest and the constant tweeking. Sometimes that is more
the fun for them than listening to music!

Nothing wrong with that approach either, keeps the mfrs in business!

It's funny, all the years of chasing analog and Im starting to really enjoy
digital too!

But, I'm getting off topic! Sorry....

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #43 on:** 23 Mar 2007, 03:00 am »

Quote from: vinyl anachronist on 22 Mar 2007, 10:30 pm

Then again, who'd a thunk we would still be arguing about which turntable sounds the best in 2007? The bottom line is, I don't care what you're listening to records on, as long as you're listening. It's all good.

Amen

I'm about your age and I tried to ditch the TT for the simplicity of CD. I dreaded music throughout that period.

Has anyone considered that, as both the greatest strength and potential weakness of any direct drive (Technics or not) is the drive system itself, there is some sort of 'blurring' that belt drive fans hear with direct drives. The best direct drive systems have rumble figures of -80db, equal to all but the priciest belt drive decks with fancy machined bearings, but that there might well be some yet unmeasured rumble-like circumstance at play.

The addition of a properly designed subsonic filter (once pretty standard, now all but forgotten) might well re-align the deck so both formats are on equal footing. Even when you find them, a good many subsonic filters begin roll off at 30Hz...possibly too high. Probably a slow roll-off from 20Hz culminating in very steep filtering as you approach single digits seems appropriate.

I suggest this as my JVC direct drive table has an admirable -78db rumble figure, yet when I activated the subsonic filter of my newly acquired APT-Holman preamp, the noise floor dropped substantially. I have very good good isolation, my table weighs about 34 lbs with 9 lbs of Plast-i-Clay added, and my arm is internally damped in the vertical and horizontal planes (so, arm resonance mismatches are eliminated). Yet, activating that subsonic filter removed a layer of grunge I did not know existed in my system

So consider if direct drives somehow don't float your boat, you may be only a well designed subsonic filter away from having that perfect speed/drag countering and eery/inky black blackground that the best belt drives offer. All for a price a lot less than those pricey belt drives may run you.

For a more contemporary choice, CIAudio's PP-1 seems flexible, powerful and offers a subsonic filter beginning it's rolloff at 20Hz. Dusty wouldn't know me from ahole in the wall - so there's no affiliation whatsoever.

I'm not 100% sure of this point, but I believe it is possible and that I experienced this very phenomenon today with my APT-Holman preamp.

vinyl anachronist · « **Reply #44 on:** 23 Mar 2007, 03:28 am »

This sounds very reasonable considering that I always hear sort of a glaze over the sound of mass-market direct-drive turntables, an overall deadening of the sound. The two adjectives I always use are "flat" and "lifeless."

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #45 on:** 23 Mar 2007, 11:16 am »

Quote from: vinyl anachronist on 23 Mar 2007, 01:52 am

Just for fun, I went on the KAB website the other day, and started ordering a 1210 with all of the goodies, and the total came to almost $2000. Now, let's take THAT table, and have him do a comparison with other $2000 tables such as a Michell Tecnodec or a Rega P5 with PSU or a VPI Scout or a Funk Firm Vector.

I think he would have come to different conclusions.

If only you knew who uses modded 1200's in the industry...

I'll just mention Jena Labs.

Quote from: mcrespo71 on 23 Mar 2007, 02:22 am

I have a Roksan Xerxes XX with the TMS 2 Uber Power Supply that is dead on in terms of speed stability- with the arm down accounting for stylus drag and using a proper strobe. However, it really doesn't sound very similar to my friends Kuzma that also measures perfect in terms of speed stability, so there are obviously more parameters to the sound of a TT than speed stability. I guess the one thing I can say is they both sound very good- the Roksan having better timing and the Kuzma having more scale and weight.

Again, speed stability as it refers to dynamic stylus drag can NOT be ascertained by watching a strobe.

Crespo, stop theorizing and get some real test records:

http://cgi.ebay.com/EDDIE-PALMIERI-Recorded-Live-At-Sing-Sing-VINYL-LP_W0QQitemZ220092605944QQcategoryZ306QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/EDDIE-PALMIERI-The-Sun-of-Latin-Music-COCO-109_W0QQitemZ220083856141QQcategoryZ306QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/RAY-BARRETTO-Hard-Hands-FANIA-LP_W0QQitemZ220086020624QQcategoryZ306QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/THE-LEBRON-BROTHERS-ORCHESTRA-Psychedelic-Goes-Latin_W0QQitemZ220054021904QQcategoryZ306QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/ORCHESTRA-HARLOW-Heavy-Smokin-FANIA-331_W0QQitemZ220017046818QQcategoryZ306QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/RICARDO-REY-Jala-Jala-Boogaloo-Vol-2-ALEGRE-8630_W0QQitemZ4753099302QQcategoryZ306QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/WILLIE-COLON-Cosa-Nuestra-FANIA-384_W0QQitemZ220088339349QQcategoryZ306QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem

An audio system is not just about how it sounds.

An audio system is also about how it sings and how it makes you dance...and these virgin vinyl reissues are the shit.

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 23 Mar 2007, 03:00 am

Has anyone considered that, as both the greatest strength and potential weakness of any direct drive (Technics or not) is the drive system itself, there is some sort of 'blurring' that belt drive fans hear with direct drives. The best direct drive systems have rumble figures of -80db, equal to all but the priciest belt drive decks with fancy machined bearings, but that there might well be some yet unmeasured rumble-like circumstance at play.

The addition of a properly designed subsonic filter (once pretty standard, now all but forgotten) might well re-align the deck so both formats are on equal footing. Even when you find them, a good many subsonic filters begin roll off at 30Hz...possibly too high. Probably a slow roll-off from 20Hz culminating in very steep filtering as you approach single digits seems appropriate.

I suggest this as my JVC direct drive table has an admirable -78db rumble figure, yet when I activated the subsonic filter of my newly acquired APT-Holman preamp, the noise floor dropped substantially. I have very good good isolation, my table weighs about 34 lbs with 9 lbs of Plast-i-Clay added, and my arm is internally damped in the vertical and horizontal planes (so, arm resonance mismatches are eliminated). Yet, activating that subsonic filter removed a layer of grunge I did not know existed in my system

So consider if direct drives somehow don't float your boat, you may be only a well designed subsonic filter away from having that perfect speed/drag countering and eery/inky black blackground that the best belt drives offer. All for a price a lot less than those pricey belt drives may run you.

For a more contemporary choice, CIAudio's PP-1 seems flexible, powerful and offers a subsonic filter beginning it's rolloff at 20Hz. Dusty wouldn't know me from ahole in the wall - so there's no affiliation whatsoever.

I'm not 100% sure of this point, but I believe it is possible and that I experienced this very phenomenon today with my APT-Holman preamp.

Well, I use a Dennensen air suspension platform, a non-resonant, Caribbean Moca wood board,a set of Goldmund cones a granite slab and an 18" square rubber/cork/rubber mat. I've worked things out. Subsonic sounds good. Again, the Chair guy making sense. Now, if he only knew how a modded belt drive transport sounds...

***

Toka · « **Reply #46 on:** 23 Mar 2007, 04:39 pm »

I'm not at all suprised that an un-modded Mk2 didn't impress...but then again, its about as far removed from a full-on KAB modded unit as something from another maker entirely. The tonearm wiring alone (in the Mk2) is crippling.

I like that TNT review a lot, if for no other reason than it actually provides some factual info (ie, measurements) behind the review...not completely useless like far too many 'reviews' are these days. If it came out and said the MH 'tables were better, so be it (something tells me that it wouldn't have made too much of a difference if a P3 was used, by the way...the MMF9 is no slouch).

The way comments like 'mass market' are thrown around are puzzling, too...almost implying that the build process between a '1200 and a Rega is somehow different (neither are built to order, both are handmade in bulk to be shipped to stores). This ain't the $99 special at Circuit City, people.

I also enjoyed reading this piece (http://www.kabusa.com/1200com1.htm), which was originally posted on Audiogon...I can relate to it quite a bit, as far as being frustrated and annoyed with the 'audiophile' industry. I also like how the writer didn't mention the 'other' tables, though it was quite easy to figure them out.

Just to clarify, I don't have a horse in the race, as it were...currently own and use a BD table. But after a loooong time of messing around and never being quite happy, when I do have the cash to get my next/last table, I'll be giving Kevin a call.

TONEPUB · « **Reply #47 on:** 23 Mar 2007, 05:02 pm »

with all this talk of direct drive, the one Im actually on the lookout for
is an SP10 mk II. My newest writer (but a very old and dear friend)
still has his and it is quite good!

There is definitely more than one way to skin the analog cat...

Just the variety of the responses here show that many of you
all have a different approach that is working well.

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #48 on:** 23 Mar 2007, 05:28 pm »

Quote

Again, speed stability as it refers to dynamic stylus drag can NOT be ascertained by watching a strobe.

Crespo, stop theorizing and get some real test records:

So what are you recommending to really test speed stability- listen to these records?

vinyl anachronist · « **Reply #49 on:** 23 Mar 2007, 07:04 pm »

Quote from: TONEPUB on 23 Mar 2007, 05:02 pm

with all this talk of direct drive, the one Im actually on the lookout for
is an SP10 mk II. My newest writer (but a very old and dear friend)
still has his and it is quite good!

There is definitely more than one way to skin the analog cat...

Just the variety of the responses here show that many of you
all have a different approach that is working well.

I know a guy who is going to lend me his SP-25 while he goes to Iraq (!). I'm looking forward to spending time with it. I'd love to hear an SP-10, also. That's what Ron Cornelius of McIntosh uses.

vinyl anachronist · « **Reply #50 on:** 23 Mar 2007, 08:03 pm »

Quote from: Toka on 23 Mar 2007, 04:39 pm

The way comments like 'mass market' are thrown around are puzzling, too...almost implying that the build process between a '1200 and a Rega is somehow different (neither are built to order, both are handmade in bulk to be shipped to stores). This ain't the $99 special at Circuit City, people.

"Mass-market" doesn't have as much to do with the build process as the way it is sold. Regas are sold through Rega dealers, who are usually specialized retail stores. Technics is a division of Panasonic, and SL-1200s can be bought through many different types of retail outlets.

Toka · « **Reply #51 on:** 23 Mar 2007, 09:12 pm »

Point taken. Though, I still fail to see what, if any, difference would be appreciable in the final product quality between the two based on where it is available. Would affect the price, though.

vinyl anachronist · « **Reply #52 on:** 23 Mar 2007, 09:41 pm »

Quote from: Toka on 23 Mar 2007, 09:12 pm

Point taken. Though, I still fail to see what, if any, difference would be appreciable in the final product quality between the two based on where it is available. Would affect the price, though.

Maybe we're talking about the term "mass-produced" here, which would definitely have an effect. I don't know how SL1200s are manufactured, but I'd be surprised if it's the same way Regas are manufactured, i.e. by people sitting at tables putting them together by hand. There are supposedly three million SL1200s in the world, remember.

Toka · « **Reply #53 on:** 23 Mar 2007, 10:30 pm »

Quote from: vinyl anachronist on 23 Mar 2007, 09:41 pm

Maybe we're talking about the term "mass-produced" here, which would definitely have an effect. I don't know how SL1200s are manufactured, but I'd be surprised if it's the same way Regas are manufactured, i.e. by people sitting at tables putting them together by hand. There are supposedly three million SL1200s in the world, remember.

Clicky here:

http://panasonic.co.jp/ism/sl1200/index.html

Its a bit hard to navigate (Japanese), and I had to run it twice for some reason (may be my browser), but you can get a glimpse of the factory where the '1200 is made...compared to the pics on the Rega website, I see people lined up at tables, hand-assembling each unit, as well as each unit getting time at a test bench when complete. Exactly the same. If anything, the Panasonic room looks cleaner (note the gloves) and more 'professional'.

I don't know how many '1200's are out there, but 3 million wouldn't surprise me...but remember, they've been made steadily for roughly 30 years.

Rocket · « **Reply #54 on:** 24 Mar 2007, 12:40 am »

Hi Guys,

Has anyone ever heard a Bix Turntable from diysupply in Hong Kong? Apparently it has been revised and improves on the original turntable. Currently i am using a Bluenote Piccolo turntable and it was quite a good buy for its price in comparison to other turntables in Australia. I've also had a rega 2/3 and a Acoustic Research eb101 (i wish i never sold that turntable).

There are lots of good quality turntables to be bought these days at good prices.

Regards

Rod

Toka · « **Reply #55 on:** 24 Mar 2007, 12:53 am »

Rod,

I hadn't heard of that...thanks for the tip! Looks like a great option (especially given the original impetus of the thread).

Also of interest is that they appear to still have the popular Shure V15VxMR cartridge available...

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #56 on:** 24 Mar 2007, 01:55 am »

Quote from: mcrespo71 on 23 Mar 2007, 05:28 pm

Quote
Again, speed stability as it refers to dynamic stylus drag can NOT be ascertained by watching a strobe.

Crespo, stop theorizing and get some real test records:

So what are you recommending to really test speed stability- listen to these records?

Quote from: vinyl anachronist on 23 Mar 2007, 09:41 pm

Maybe we're talking about the term "mass-produced" here, which would definitely have an effect. I don't know how SL1200s are manufactured, but I'd be surprised if it's the same way Regas are manufactured, i.e. by people sitting at tables putting them together by hand. There are supposedly three million SL1200s in the world, remember.

Remember, not everything done 'by hand' is better...

Lets see how many are sharp enough to get the meaning of the statement above!!!

***

TONEPUB · « **Reply #57 on:** 24 Mar 2007, 06:17 am »

You know, this thread is starting to get a little grumpy.

The one thing I have to say for the SL1200 lovers is that it
certainly is a loyal group...

My job is to investigate and ask questions. I'm not that
fanatical about a particular thing. I've bought the best
gear I can afford and it helps me do my job.

But this kind of interchange helps us to keep a finger on
the pulse of what's happening out there....

vinyl anachronist · « **Reply #58 on:** 24 Mar 2007, 05:17 pm »

I'm actually growing more and more fascinated by the day, mostly because there doesn't even seem to be a consensus among SL1200 owners about how to make them great. Some swear by the KAB mods, some put on expensive carts, some swap out the arms. At least there seems to be some consensus that a stock SL1200 isn't really where it's at, and that was my contention from the beginning.

It's clear that the SL1200 does respond to tweaking. Now that I've recently heard a stock SL1200, for the first time in many years, I'd love to be able to get one and try everything there is to see its potential.

Toka · « **Reply #59 on:** 24 Mar 2007, 05:43 pm »

These types of threads always get snippy, sad to say. Nothing in audio is worth getting worked up about.

VA, I think you may be looking for a consensus where one does not exist...any fans of any piece of gear will always have different 'truths' they adhere to. I mean, do all Linn owners have the same tweaks/cart? I suppose an apt analogy would be with the car/tuner scene, where people buy a car that is a solid platform and then gut/tweak it to make it a racecar. Or not, I dunno...I mean, for every person I who swapped out the arm and liked it better, there was probably someone who ended up putting the stock arm back in. As I said before the biggest problem with the arm are the internals, not the arm itself. Heck, put a $20 Stanton conical on a VPI HRX and hook it up to a mixing board feeding MTX speakers with crate handles and it'll sound like...a '1200 with the same attributes.

I hope you get a chance to try/hear one with the KAB mods, I think you will be impressed.