[TONEPUB]

Hey guys enlighten me, what's this about no KAB posting?  Does this mean that if you
buy a KAB product that you can't talk about it anywhere?  Or am I confused...

I am still terribly intrigued by all of this.  While I appreciate the comment that Technics
makes 10 thousand arms a year, that doesn't really mean anything to me, because
Honda makes millions of Civics a year and Ferrari only makes about 2000 cars a year.

The technical expertise of Ferrari far surpasses Honda, however Honda makes an excellent
car that is very well built and trouble free.  SO I don't think that quantity is necessarily
a substitute for quality.

Don't get me wrong.  The first turntable I ever bought was an SL1200 with a Stanton 681EEE.

When I got the 1200 out of the box for our upcoming review, I even remembered the smell!!

I love my SME and Avid tables, but if the Technics SL1200 with some mods and a better tonearm
offers up a lot of good sound for the money, believe me, I want to tell the world about it!

I just want people to enjoy their music.  I'm not bought into anything.  Granted I have gear that
I really enjoy, but we want you to find gear you really enjoy, no matter what it is!

It's been a lot of fun listening to these tables!

Story coming soon.....

[mcrespo71]

My personal favorite TT for under $1000 is the Rega P3.  I've never heard a Technics in my system, though I have heard them at NYC clubs, but I can't blame the overpowering sound on the TT!

[Lkdog]

I have the KAB Technics modded player with the dampened tonearm.
Sounds wonderful and I won't qualify it with a "for the money" statement.

[Psychicanimal]

Hey guys enlighten me, what's this about no KAB posting?  Does this mean that if you
buy a KAB product that you can't talk about it anywhere?  Or am I confused...

I am still terribly intrigued by all of this.  While I appreciate the comment that Technics
makes 10 thousand arms a year, that doesn't really mean anything to me, because
Honda makes millions of Civics a year and Ferrari only makes about 2000 cars a year.

The technical expertise of Ferrari far surpasses Honda, however Honda makes an excellent
car that is very well built and trouble free.  SO I don't think that quantity is necessarily
a substitute for quality.

Don't get me wrong.  The first turntable I ever bought was an SL1200 with a Stanton 681EEE.

When I got the 1200 out of the box for our upcoming review, I even remembered the smell!!

I love my SME and Avid tables, but if the Technics SL1200 with some mods and a better tonearm
offers up a lot of good sound for the money, believe me, I want to tell the world about it!

I just want people to enjoy their music.  I'm not bought into anything.  Granted I have gear that
I really enjoy, but we want you to find gear you really enjoy, no matter what it is!

It's been a lot of fun listening to these tables!

Story coming soon.....

No posting means Kevin/KAB will not post in the forums--that's the policy.

I would not know about technical expertise of Honda vs Ferrari, if that relates to released products but I'd guess Honda has more money and R&D funding than Ferrari.  Bet their QC is a lot better, too.  Point is, Panasonic can sell an outstanding arm cheaper than SME or Avid could. It's called economies of scale, in the lingo.  Bearing specs say a lot in this case, as is scaling down from a flagship tonearm design and keeping its main attributes.  The damper does indeed compensate for the cost cutting measures employed by Panasonic.

I'll give you a couple of my tricks:

1) Make sure the oil well is filled all the way to the top at all times--don't believe that 2000 hrs oiling regime crap. Listen before & after...
2) Use Marigo Dots on the tonearm gimbals.

You need to read the fluid damper's review:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?raccs&1033259530&read&3&4&

Why don't you go through the mods one by one and then write a progressive review?  That would make it truly unique, as nobody's done that before.  Start with changing RCAs, using a cable cooker on the cheapo wiring, then the KAB power supply, then a Revelation Audio Labs DC umbilical, then a heavy gauge cryo'ed power cord for the power supply.  Next would be the fluid damper, tonearm rewire and high end phono cables.  Last but not least would be the strobe disabler.  There you go, a review on the 1200's upgrade path--what a journey!

...I won't qualify it with a "for the money" statement.

Very well put.


***

[doug s.]

...I've had many people tell me that the secret in bringing the 1200 up to the performance standards of decent belt-drive 'tables is using something like a Rega RB300 or an old SME....

i am not even sure what this means.  what is a *decent* belt drive deck & how much does it cost?  i think my oracle delphi is a decent deck, but it has been upgraded to mkv specs, has an origin-live dc motor kit powered by a hewlett packard lab power supply, is fitted w/an origin-live silver taper tonearm...  as i shop used & carefully, it's cost to me was not anywhere near its retail cost, but it certainly cost me a mite more than $1k...     re: the technics deck, even a stock sl1200 will outperform any presently manufactured belt-driven turntable at twice its price, imo.

re: the rega arms, as origin-live (rega arm modders) states that a modded rb250 will outperform even a modded rb900, i would think that is the way to go if you are wanting to swap a stock technics arm w/o dumping a lot of money into it.  o-l also makes an armboard for the technics for just such a retrofit.  as i said in another life on this thread, i would still choose a modded vintage empire if it were *my* $1k.  but, you cannot top a kabusa sl1200 for $1k when buying new, imo...

ymmv,

doug s.

[TONEPUB]

I'm certainly open to going along the upgrade path on this as time goes by.  We did a similar thing with a Rega P25 and it was very enlightening.   My only problem with the 1200 is that KAB has no intention of working with us, which means I have to do a thousand dollars worth of modifications to a table Im not interested in owning and pay for it out of my own pocket.

From a business standpoint it just doesn't make sense.  That doesn't mean I won't do it, but usually when a mfr wants their product to get some buzz, they send you the goodies to write about.  I'm still intrigued because I want to expose our readers to what is out there. 

The other problem I have with even dipping my foot in this pond is the fact that I am going to hack off a bunch of people either way.  The people that have a technics are going to be mad if I think the Rega sounds better and vice versa.  Somehow based on my experience, I get the feeling the direct drive is going to have a different character, which will lend itself more to a different kind of system.

Please keep in mind I am very intrigued by this, because Im always excited when there is major performance to be had for a modest investment in this wacky world of hifi that we all love.

We'll keep working on it!

[TheChairGuy]

Hey Jeff,

We had a post similar to this in the Vinyl Circle awhile back: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=27169.0 . Perhaps it may lend some guidance to your search.

Aside from the topic at hand...I just have to say you've been a blast of fresh air here at AudioCircle  When the topic of starting a Publishers area was brought up to Council members, I wasn't that keen on it as I didn't know how it would benefit membership.  But, as JohnR has mentioned in passing quite a few times, the success of any circle is pretty much dependent on a passionate moderator for it.  And you got that - in spades 

Hey, on subject of Honda vs. Ferrari, let's not forget Honda makes (or made) the Acura NSX.  Reported to be the easiest driving supercar ever (and I would think the most reliable) it sold for 50% of a Ferrari price.  Like the Technics 1200, the NSX may not have the panache in supercar circles, but it's a great one all the same - for 50% less.

That's the power of economies of scale in real world action as it relates to cars, but transfers well in this turntable discussion.

Thx, John / TCG

[TONEPUB]

Thanks for the compliments!

As someone who has spent a lot of time in the exotic car world, I have to tell you
that the NSX is not even close to a Ferrari, however it is a perfect example of this discussion!

The guys that own the NSX all feel that it is the best car made and the guys
that own Ferraris turn their nose up at it, because it has no competition heritage
and is (semi) mass produced.  Just like with expensive turntables, the answer is
somewhere in between...

But having spent a fair amount of time driving both cars, the NSX is a decent car,
it just doesn't have the level of finesse that the Ferrari offers up and all those
years of F1 victories makes a difference.

However, the person that has not logged a lot of hours driving Porsche, BMW M cars
Ferrari and the other exotic marques would get behind the wheel of an NSX and
think "this is a pretty damn good car"   The NSX certainly spends a lot less time
(and a lot less cost) in the shop!

I know a lot of guys that own quite a few Ferraris and many of them have an NSX
as a daily driver, because the midengine feel is very similar to the Ferrari.

So as my good freind Steve Hoffman likes to say:  What have we learned here?

There is room for everyone and if you are happy with your purchase decisions,
that's all that matters.

Me, all I want is a 2001 BMW M Roadster.  Is it a better car than a Boxster S
heck no!  But can I slide it down my street sideways? You bet!

It's all about what you dig!

[doug s.]

I'm certainly open to going along the upgrade path on this as time goes by.  We did a similar thing with a Rega P25 and it was very enlightening.   My only problem with the 1200 is that KAB has no intention of working with us, which means I have to do a thousand dollars worth of modifications to a table Im not interested in owning and pay for it out of my own pocket.

From a business standpoint it just doesn't make sense.  That doesn't mean I won't do it, but usually when a mfr wants their product to get some buzz, they send you the goodies to write about.  I'm still intrigued because I want to expose our readers to what is out there. 

The other problem I have with even dipping my foot in this pond is the fact that I am going to hack off a bunch of people either way.  The people that have a technics are going to be mad if I think the Rega sounds better and vice versa.  Somehow based on my experience, I get the feeling the direct drive is going to have a different character, which will lend itself more to a different kind of system.

Please keep in mind I am very intrigued by this, because Im always excited when there is major performance to be had for a modest investment in this wacky world of hifi that we all love.

We'll keep working on it!

why not yust buy a full-zoot kabusa turntable & report back?  you will always be able re-sell w/o taking much of a loss.  and then you can decide for yourself whether or not it's worth doing anything w/it, or whether it's worth doing something else w/technics decks. 

who cares what the technics or rega folks say about it?  so what?  another educated data point on the subject is a good thing, imo.

ymmv,

doug s.,
who has a de tomaso pantera cuz he likes ferrari's but doesn't have the budget...   

[TONEPUB]

Well, we'll see what happens.

But the Pantera is a VERY cool car...

[vinyl anachronist]

...I've had many people tell me that the secret in bringing the 1200 up to the performance standards of decent belt-drive 'tables is using something like a Rega RB300 or an old SME....

i am not even sure what this means.  what is a *decent* belt drive deck & how much does it cost?  i think my oracle delphi is a decent deck, but it has been upgraded to mkv specs, has an origin-live dc motor kit powered by a hewlett packard lab power supply, is fitted w/an origin-live silver taper tonearm...  as i shop used & carefully, it's cost to me was not anywhere near its retail cost, but it certainly cost me a mite more than $1k...     re: the technics deck, even a stock sl1200 will outperform any presently manufactured belt-driven turntable at twice its price, imo.

re: the rega arms, as origin-live (rega arm modders) states that a modded rb250 will outperform even a modded rb900, i would think that is the way to go if you are wanting to swap a stock technics arm w/o dumping a lot of money into it.  o-l also makes an armboard for the technics for just such a retrofit.  as i said in another life on this thread, i would still choose a modded vintage empire if it were *my* $1k.  but, you cannot top a kabusa sl1200 for $1k when buying new, imo...

ymmv,

doug s.

For the last year or so, I've thrown myself into a big controversy about the SL1200 and its merits.  I've dissed them for years, based upon the fact that in my early audiophile days I heard several SL1200s and they never appealed to me sound-wise.  I've written several articles on the subject over the last year, and for the first time in nine years writing about this stuff, I've pissed off a lot of people.  My basic argument has always been that a mass-produced direct-drive 'table simply does not sound as good as a decent belt-drive 'table.  I use the word "decent," because I'm not in love with the sound of the lesser Music Halls or Pro-Jects, either.  So using the word "decent" was always my roundabout way of saying "at least a Rega P2 or P3."

I offered a challenge for someone to bring their SL1200 over to my house and compare it to a Rega P2, which my wife uses in a second system.  No one took me up on this challenge, but lots of people complained, saying that I would be too biased to give the 1200 a fair shake.  I even offered to do the comparison in front of a lot of people, so that if everyone disagreed with me, it would become at the very least a matter of my preferences, and not any absolute last word sort of thing.

Well, after more than a year, I finally had someone bring one over.  It was a stock 1200, a mk.2, with a Stanton Groovemaster cartridge.  It was so spur-of-the-moment, so I wasn't able to get the P2 over to compare.  The owner, an acquaintance of mine named Frank, isn't a hard-core 1200 fan by any means, but it's what he uses, and he likes it.  I think he was more interested in hearing my rig, which is a Michell Orbe SE with an SME V arm and a Koetsu Rosewood Standard cartridge.

I honestly was hoping to be surprised by the 1200.  It would be far more interesting for me to write that I was wrong about the SL1200, that it really is good after all.  Honestly, that's the article I wanted to write, not one where I say "I was right all along...it sucks."  Suffice it to say that I'm not going to make my opinions about this SL1200 known...right away.  I want to hear three other SL1200s first, ones that I've been told sound as good as any other 'table in its price range.  I want to hear one modified by KAB.  I want to hear one with a different arm, since some have told me the 1200's weakness is the arm.  And I want to hear one with an excellent cartridge, because others have told me that there's nothing wrong with the arm.

After I hear these three versions, then I will be more than happy to report my findings, and close this chapter for good.

[mcrespo71]

I would be interested in reading more direct comparisons between this KAB deck and others.  The statement by psychicanimal the "creature on steroids" is as good as 5K belt drives- was this comparison actually done?  If so, what tables?  Same system? Same arm?  Similar cartridge? etc.

[TONEPUB]

Just so you know, I'm never a big fan of the whole "shootout" thing.

But I am interested in investigating this further.  Because of the nature
of the tables, it is probably next to impossible to put the same arm on
everything to keep it all equal enough.

More than likely, as with any two turntables, they often have more of
a different flavor.  There are so many things that go into the sound;
bearing and material choices, just to name a few.

And it is often as personal a choice as a set of speakers.  One person
likes Wilson, one likes Vandersteen one likes panels and one likes
Lowthers (or insert your favorite here).

At that point, who is right?  If I like red and you like green, which is
the BETTER color?

So, you see where Im going with this.  I think if the KAB SL1200 is
a good deal and sounds good, (which Im sure it does as so many
people own them) we'll be happy to write about it...

[vinyl anachronist]

My experience over the last year with the Technics thing definitely soured me on the whole shootout thing, too.  It's too tough to do right, and even if you do, you're probably not going to change anyone's mind.  It's the red-and-green thing, but it's more, too. It has to do with how your brain is wired, and how your ears are shaped, what your frame of mind is, etc.  You just can't say turntable X is better than turntable Y.  All you can say is that you really like one thing, and hopefully someone else will listen to you, and check it out for themselves.

I've had a lot of people buy expensive turntables, cartridges and tonearms based solely on my recommendations, which scares the crap out of me.  I just want to offer my opinion and steer people in the right direction. I have one guy in particular who has purchased close to ten thousand dollars of equipment over the last year based on my opinions.  He lives in the middle of nowhere, and I guess he figures better me than some salesman.  But I couldn't imagine buying audio equipment without hearing it first.  And I would bet dollars to donuts that these days the majority of people do buy stuff without hearing it first.

[TONEPUB]

[/quote]
After I hear these three versions, then I will be more than happy to report my findings, and close this chapter for good.
[/quote]

Man, Im all over that!  I can't believe how crazy this has become!!

[vinyl anachronist]

Then again, who'd a thunk we would still be arguing about which turntable sounds the best in 2007?  The bottom line is, I don't care what you're listening to records on, as long as you're listening.  It's all good.

[WEEZ]

Have a look at this:

www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/technics_sl1200_2_e.html

I'm not endorsing anything here...I've always used belt drives

WEEZ

[vinyl anachronist]

Have a look at this:

www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/technics_sl1200_2_e.html

I'm not endorsing anything here...I've always used belt drives

WEEZ

Yep, seen that review already.  I would have liked if the reviewer had compared the 1200 to something else other than Music Halls, however...

[Psychicanimal]

I would be interested in reading more direct comparisons between this KAB deck and others.  The statement by psychicanimal the "creature on steroids" is as good as 5K belt drives- was this comparison actually done?  If so, what tables?  Same system? Same arm?  Similar cartridge? etc.

Some people have done it in the Asylum, Alex Yakovlev has a very extensive thread in the Audiogon archives.

Shootouts are not needed.  The attributes of a modded 1200 or a TT with similar speed/rotational stability are not easy to forget.  Remember, only 50% of the music is in the vinyl record: the time domain component rests on the TT's speed/rotational stability.  Now, if someone is really into what I despectively call 'analog sound' they'll never like something that's closer to the recording.  If you give it some serious thought you'll understand.  Once a person gets to learn what stylus drag does, things change for the better.  It's hard...like convincing someone who's used to cheap Lambrusco wine w/ screw caps to appreciate Chilean Cabernet Sauvignon.   

Fania has fast percussion Latin music reissues on virgin vinyl: play them on a modded 1200.  Then take the record wherever you want.   


***

[WEEZ]

vinyl anachronist,

I agree, but the point of the article..and this thread..is 'under $1000'. I fully suspect that anyone looking to get into vinyl at this price would do well to consider KAB.

HOWEVER, , "creature on steroids" does strike me as 'over the top' just a bit. And I've read all the Asylum raves....I guess it's whatever floats your boat. The Asylum raved about modded Toshiba DVD players too, as the holy grail for CD playback..if that says anything. (they ARE nice video players..)

WEEZ