What are your esteemed opinions of TT's @ $1000.00?

TheChairGuy · « **on:** 7 Apr 2006, 08:41 pm »

I've found that after tweeking both my A-T440ml and Ortofon X5-MC with the van Alstine Longhorn mod, and setting up my $50.00 JVC (direct drive) ebay find juuust right, I'm wondering how far up the scale I need to go improve things.

Is there no better table than KAB's greatly modified SL1200 out there for $1000.00?...complete with arm (that I hear even AJ van den Hul uses it as he needs to swap out cartridges all the time). I've now read that Kevin Barrrett/KAB is beginning to re-wire the SL-1200's tonearm with 'better' wire (OFC, LC-OFC, don't know) and terminating them in rca jacks.

btw - the remarkable Klaus Bunge (of Odyssey) has a few MC's with re-tips done by van den Hul in stock. I just scored a hi-output Sumiko Blue Point retipped with a (brand new) van den Hul stylus for a bit more than $300.00. He's got Koetsu's and Lyra's to sell still for more money...but they need step up/MC gains. Between the intial outlay, the step up and my rather modest table....a Koetsu or Lyra seemed pretty silly. Besides, the Longhorn mod is a rather remarkable upgrade for near nil - and needs a slid body to work on (not nude body, as I think the Lyra's are).

So, now I'll have a $100 A-T moving magnet, a $200 Ortofon moving coil and a $300 Sumiko cum van den Hul moving coil to compare...all with the Longhorn mod. Should be fun

I can't find any out there better on paper than the KAB-modded Technics.....I think the outboard power supply and damped tonearm at that price, with a now re-wired tonearm, might make it the de facto king at $1000.00.

Do you need to go to a $2500.00+ VPI set-up before you beat it?

Any other ideas before I take the plunge?

zybar · « **Reply #1 on:** 7 Apr 2006, 08:50 pm »

I don't know any of the gear you listed, but I LOVED my old Linn LP 12 with Valhalla board + Benz glider. This combination was musical and just made you want to listen. Not the last word in detail and slam, but who cares!

You can pick this combo up for around $1k used on Audiogon.

I probably never should have sold it, but I was just too lazy to spin the black circle.

George

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #2 on:** 7 Apr 2006, 08:58 pm »

Quote from: zybar

I don't know any of the gear you listed, but I LOVED my old Linn LP 12 with Valhalla board + Benz glider. This combination was musical and just made you want to listen. Not the last word in detail and slam, but who cares!

You can pick this combo up for around $1k used on Audiogon.

I probably never should have sold it, but I was just too lazy to spin the black circle.

George

Pretty hard to beat a Linn for musicality. Plus, you can upgrade it to an uber table if you so desire. I own a Roksan Xerxes X, which is similar to the sound of the Linn, but with less midbass bump and a less organic quality.

OTL · « **Reply #3 on:** 7 Apr 2006, 09:02 pm »

Although I haven't walked in your shoes exactly, I'm in a very similar boat.

My VPI HW Jr w/Audioquest PT-6/Grado is on the block. Somebody will get a great table and arm for a good price, but I can't continue to hold on to it without factory support. And with new VMPS RM30's are on the way I'm looking for a bit more resolution. My last 10+ years with the VPI Jr have been glorious, but it's time to move a touch up scale.

I've been shopping in the $1.5K to $2.5k area and have not come to any conclusions as yet. Your conclusions and questions mirror my own.

So, what's the "cream of the crop" out there in the $2k neighborhood?

AmericanWired · « **Reply #4 on:** 7 Apr 2006, 09:22 pm »

The Well Tempered with a good cartridge has to be the most underrated table around. The Classic (in good shape) is 80% of the sound of the Reference at 1/2 the price.

The Kuzma Stabi S can take two arms (Kuzma makes nice arms) and works well with a lot of cartridges.

The Denon DL-103, Lyra Clavis, Benz L2, Grado Sonata, etc...all sound really good on this table.

Just my $0.02

American Wired

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #5 on:** 7 Apr 2006, 09:28 pm »

Quote from: zybar

I don't know any of the gear you listed, but I LOVED my old Linn LP 12 with Valhalla board + Benz glider. This combination was musical and just made you want to listen. Not the last word in detail and slam, but who cares!

You can pick this combo up for around $1k used on Audiogon.

I probably never should have sold it, but I was just too lazy to spin the black circle.

George

George,

What is 'Valhalla board' mean...I've heard it used in regards to Linn, but haven't figured it out

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #6 on:** 7 Apr 2006, 09:32 pm »

Quote from: AmericanWired

The Well Tempered with a good cartridge has to be the most underrated table around. The Classic (in good shape) is 80% of the sound of the Reference at 1/2 the price.

The Kuzma Stabi S can take two arms (Kuzma makes nice arms) and works well with a lot of cartridges.

The Denon DL-103, Lyra Clavis, Benz L2, Grado Sonata, etc...all sound really good on this table.

Just my $0.02

American Wired

The Well Tempered, and the various Townshend Rock incarnations, have always been of interest.

I owned a Rock for a very brief period of time, mates to a modded/damped Grado back in 1987...it was the best TT I've had (only had three, so I'm on shaky ground there

)

Had to sell it as I was a dumb kid more interested in beer then

OTL · « **Reply #7 on:** 7 Apr 2006, 09:35 pm »

Quote from: TheChairGuy

The Well Tempered, and the various Townshend Rock incarnations, have always been of interest.

I owned a Rock for a very brief period of time, mates to a modded/damped Grado back in 1987...it was the best TT I've had (only had three, so I'm on shaky ground there )

Had to sell it as I was a dumb kid more interested in beer then

What's dumb about being intersted in beer? In and of itself, it's a noble and rewarding pursuit.

OTL · « **Reply #8 on:** 7 Apr 2006, 09:36 pm »

Beer is one of the most cost effective tweaks I've ever experienced!

skrivis · « **Reply #9 on:** 7 Apr 2006, 09:41 pm »

Quote from: TheChairGuy

The Well Tempered, and the various Townshend Rock incarnations, have always been of interest.

I owned a Rock for a very brief period of time, mates to a modded/damped Grado back in 1987...it was the best TT I've had (only had three, so I'm on shaky ground there )

Had to sell it as I was a dumb kid more interested in beer then

What about one of the Music Hall 'tables? The MMF-7 is just over $1K at AudioAdvisor and is quite nice. It's belt-drive, so you don't get the typical problems of a direct-drive 'table.

philipp · « **Reply #10 on:** 7 Apr 2006, 09:44 pm »

Last summer, I got a basic Well Tempered Record Player with a Goldring Eroica MC used for $800. It sounds so good, it makes me weep -- "night and day" better than the Rega Planar 2 I had previously and noticeably better than the Cambridge Audio Azur 640C I got last year.

All of these sources are plugged into an old Arcam Delta 60 integrated, so I can only imagine how much better that Well Tempered can sound with better electronics and some creative resonance dampening.

dcbingaman · « **Reply #11 on:** 7 Apr 2006, 10:30 pm »

Chair Guy: I've got my VPI Mk. 3 / Hot-Wired Rega up for sale for $ 800.00 + shipping, (to SF from STL - probably about $ 50.00). I traded my Linn LP-12 in on the VPI because I wanted better bass and set-up stability. (The Linn required a lot of maintenance to stay great-sounding.) Harry Weisfeld is a genius and has put together the best of tables out there. I just bought a new VPI Scout and JMW-9 Sig. arm. A (small) step-up from the Mk. 3. If you watch this forum or Audiogon, you can find a lot of nice tables and arms for less than $ 1000.00

nature boy · « **Reply #12 on:** 7 Apr 2006, 10:51 pm »

A slightly used VPI Scout or Notthingham Interspace would be my recommendations. I went with the Nottingham.

NB

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #13 on:** 8 Apr 2006, 02:19 am »

A damped tonearm, I think, is nearly a must. The experiment with my homemade silicone filled trough pretty much settled that one.....everything from bass, to less noise, to acoustic isolation improved after it was rigged up.

Perhaps it made a substantial benefit as it did as it was applied to the tonearm that came with the cheapie JVC....but it was a revelatory, goose bump kinda' positive change. As well, the super Townshend Rock I had many years ago was silicone damped (unusually, right at the headshell).

I have also read that outside of good physical isolation (various means from good stand to feet to boards, etc) an outboard, regulated power supply is most beneficial, as well.

The only deck I know of, new or used, that has both is the Technics SL-1200, modded by KAB. Also, as long as I've been casually glancing at A'gon Vinyl section, I've seen but one for sale. Happy owners don't sell their gear except in normal upgrade and cash short instances, typically

I'm not married to the idea of purchasing one, the so-called theoretical superiority of belt drivers holds sway with me, but the direct driver I have here is better then my previous Thorens TD-316 (would probably sell for $750 today new). I never could get that puppy to really sing

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #14 on:** 8 Apr 2006, 02:47 am »

Quote

The only deck I know of, new or used, that has both is the Technics SL-1200, modded by KAB. Also, as long as I've been casually glancing at A'gon Vinyl section, I've seen but one for sale. Happy owners don't sell their gear except in normal upgrade and cash short instances, typically

Do you know of anyone that's actually owned or tried this aside from Psychicanimal or Al Sekela, who are the only ones that seem to talk about it? I honestly doubt there are that many of these out there to be a glut of them on the used market.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #15 on:** 8 Apr 2006, 02:56 am »

John,

Chris[/list:u]

BikeWNC · « **Reply #16 on:** 8 Apr 2006, 03:26 am »

I was given a SL 1200 mkll some time ago. I have since added the KAB tonearm damper, ps and mapleshade brass footers to the unit. Each addition brought improvements. I replaced the mat with a Herbies and wrapped the tonearm with teflon tape. I placed the tt on a maple platform in a sandbox. I have a new ZU RCA cable that I hope to solder in this next week. Perhaps in the future I will change the arm for a Rega type and see how that goes.

I can't tell you how this tt compares to any other. At this point in time I am satisfied with the sound I get from it, though I need to try some other pickups. Its pretty tweakable but at the same time easy to setup and adjust. Hope that helps.

Andy

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #17 on:** 8 Apr 2006, 03:12 pm »

Quote from: BikeWNC

I was given a SL 1200 mkll some time ago. I have since added the KAB tonearm damper, ps and mapleshade brass footers to the unit. Each addition brought improvements. I replaced the mat with a Herbies and wrapped the tonearm with teflon tape. I placed the tt on a maple platform in a sandbox. I have a new ZU RCA cable that I hope to solder in this next week. Perhaps in the future I will change the arm for a Rega type and see how that goes.

I can't tell you how this tt compares to any other. At this point in time I am satisfied with the sound I get from it, though I need to try some other pickups. Its pretty tweakable but at the same time easy to setup and adjust. Hope that helps.

Andy,

Thx for chiming in. You pretty much have the whole upgrade path covered now....does it do justice to the music?

One of the last upgrade path is the wiring....I have heard it's dreadful in the 1200's. The newest 1200, the M5G, has upgraded OFC wiring and terminated in higher quality rca's. That might well be the missing ticket on fully enjoying the Technics at $1000.00 or so.

As mentioned, Keven Barrett/KAB is now beginning to re-wire them....Keven is generally not an uber-tweeker - he does so when it's beneficial.

What cartridge are you pairing with it currently?

BikeWNC · « **Reply #18 on:** 8 Apr 2006, 04:02 pm »

I realize the cable from the tonearm to the junction of the RCA cable is probably a weak point, but I think I'll wait as I might replace the arm someday. I'll check out what Kevin is offering.

Right now I am using a KAB Groovemaster II cartridge. To my ears, it is lacking somewhat in the higher frequencies. Great midrange though. I have also used a Grado Gold but could never get the setup right as it had some annoying sibilance. I've thought about a MC like the Denon 103 or Dynavector 20. I'll probably wait on that too until I decide on the arm wire or replace issue.

I think this tt does very well with music. I'm certainly no expert and have very limited knowledge of competing tt in this price range. But, I enjoy listening to vinyl just as much if not more than my tubed Denon digital player. There is a wholeness to analog that is so soothing.

Andy

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #19 on:** 9 Apr 2006, 01:35 am »

Andy,

The Stanton's, on which the Groovemaster is based, has an inductance in the 800 mH range....you think you're missing some hi-frequency because you are.

The larger the inductance, or larger the capacitance, the lower the resonant frequency will be. Indeed, it can easily show up in the audio band, even under common conditions. The following calculator can be used to determine the resonance of your system (taken from Mr. Hagerman's site).

Plug in your inductance of 800 (it'll be in your manual....it may even be a little higher) and capacitance of 100 into this calculator:
http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html
You'll find you have a resonant frequency of 17,800 hertz. Well short of the 'air' us vinylphiles enjoy over CD.

Using the (likely) standard 47K load resistance of your MM phono section, you're banwidth is actually peaking at 9400 hertz

You think your missing air because you really are missing it with the Groovemaster.

Only be terminating it into an optimal 89.4K ohm input, will you be getting more extended bandwidth of 17,800 hertz.

I'd love to know what you think of your Technics if you terminate it into a near optimal 89.4K ohm load, or move to a lower inductance Grado or Moving Coil terminated into the right loading.

(big thanks to Frank van Alstine and Mr. Hagerman for teaching me these important lessons - they are critical to getting the full vinyl experience)