What are your esteemed opinions of TT's @ $1000.00?

BikeWNC · « **Reply #20 on:** 9 Apr 2006, 02:11 am »

Thanks for that math. I know my hearing isn't what is once was but I can definitely get past 9400 hz. My preamp can switch loading values on MC and is fixed at 47K on MM. I may try another cartridge. I'll need to do some reading up on that. Lots of opinions out there I'm sure.

Andy

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #21 on:** 9 Apr 2006, 02:24 am »

Quote from: BikeWNC

Thanks for that math. I know my hearing isn't what is once was but I can definitely get past 9400 hz. My preamp can switch loading values on MC and is fixed at 47K on MM. I may try another cartridge. I'll need to do some reading up on that. Lots of opinions out there I'm sure.

Andy

Andy,

I'm not anywhere near a know-it-all, nor any tech sort, but those numbers are set in stone......it's not opinion. Your cartridge inductance and cable capacitance conspire to set your resonance frequency.

The 47k ohm load is an arbitrary 'standard' load that was agreed upon decades ago. The problem is that neither inductance of cable capacitance has been standardized.....realistically, that couldn't be achieved.

I did a little more checking...if it's based on the 881s your inductance is 510 mH and if it's the 681 it's 930 mH. Plug those numbers into Hagerman's calculator to get your bandwidth at 47K.

If it's based on the 681, it's a lot worse than 9400 hertz

Believe me, if I understand it - nearly anyone can

John / TCG

Sarchi · « **Reply #22 on:** 11 Apr 2006, 02:45 am »

Hunt around, for $1k you can probably find an amazing used 'table at an audio dealer. I picked up an Oracle Mk.II, with a Fidelity Research FR-64S arm and an original Koetsu Black, for about $850 US. Those tonearms are collectible esp in Asia. I saw an HW19 with one some time later and I wish I'd grabbed it too!

I enjoyed the hell out of that Oracle and when it came time to upgrade, I separated the table/arm/cart and got back almost triple what I paid. Probably not the norm, but it happens...there are dealers out there sitting on good stuff.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #23 on:** 15 Apr 2006, 01:44 am »

Given the huge differences cartridges are making in my set-up, I'm pursuing that upgrade path before ditching my $50 JVC Direct Drive, ebay special.

I have a hi output Sumiko with a new van den hul stylus coming in thru Santa Klaus of Odyssey...and I just bought a Musical Surroundings Phenomena and Battery set up off of a fella' on Audiogon. It'll allow me to dial in the cartridge loading more succinctly (important on MM's and MC's).

Hopefully, the added stage won't add more garbage to the chain....I have no qualms about my (tubed) Dynaco PAS-4 phono section....only that it is fixed at 47K input. The changes to the overall sound, some good some bad points, have been substantial swapping out the Audio-Technica AT440ml (which was ragged until I added tonearm fluid damping) and the Ortofon X5-MC (which was lightweight and bright until all the arm geometry was dialed in right). The Phenomena will also allow me to try a low output MC if I'd like to.....there's a couple of Denons and AT's (available in Japan only) that I might like to try.

I think I still need more time to discover vinyl before I leap into a new table. I may decide to bypass the $1000.00 price point entirely and go right into something really special (and sinfully expensive)

lcrim · « **Reply #24 on:** 16 Apr 2006, 04:37 pm »

Chair Guy et al:
As you might remember I own a KAB modded Technics 1200 MKII, in fact its Kevin's former test mule and has all the improvements. As I recently improved my digital source by going to PC based audio, I have been wondering about cost concious ways of improving analog playback to even things up in that same system. While I agree that the tonearm wiring is a weak link, I do think that Kevin is close to offering a solution. I did try alternative loadings with my "Groovemaster" cart which also has a non-standard stylus assembly and kept coming back to 47K ohms as it sounded more balanced. I may try an Ortofon MC as that line retains a measure of compliance that is unfotunately not a feature of most MC's particularly the Denon that you mentioned. The surface quality of vinyl being such a huge factor in playback, I just don't feel that the low compliance of MC's coupled with the higher tracking forces necessary is a good idea. Logically, its got to be harder on the groove than a lighter tracking high compliance MM.
I have a Jolida JD-9 phono section and while it was an upgrade, I am also considering an Eastern Electric Minimax phono stage because of the terrific reviews it has received and I already own the Minimax power amp and preamp and they are high quality at a reasonable cost. Bill O'Connell is a great guy to deal with at Morningstar Audio who is the importer.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #25 on:** 17 Apr 2006, 05:04 am »

Hey Larry,

I do indeed remember...was hoping you'd chime in on the topic.

What upgrades do you have, and which Technics (MkII or V...not the new M5G with upgraded wiring from the factory)?

Damping Trough?
Outboard Power Supply?
Strobe Disabler?

Anything else?

I think Kevin s on to a good thing with that integrated stylus body (vertical and horizontal stability, perfect alingment each time, and eliminating one connection overall)......but you ain't gonna wring superb music out of a 510mh (881s) or 900mH (681) inductance cartridge. Good maybe, but never great.

Now if Kevin can get Ortofon to make a low ouput MC in that Concord body...now you're talking

John TCG

lcrim · « **Reply #26 on:** 17 Apr 2006, 11:34 am »

CG:
Mine is a 1200 MKII w/ the hydraulic damping, external power supply, strobe disabler and record locking ring. I also have another system w/ a Dual CS5000 which is an older belt drive TT that was set up w/ a cartridge which has the same internal windings and cantilever as in my "Groovemaster." We did some informal tests for tracking and to find the actual resonant frequency. The hydraulic damping, I am fairly certain, helps enormously to futher lower that resonant frequency and improve trackability over all versus the "same" cartridge w/o the damping. Interestingly Kevin still recommends the outboard power supply as the very first mod, if you want to stage improvements as funds permit. The "Longhorn" modified Grado formerly sold by Frank Van Alstine was a very clever adaptation to improve the trackability and lower the resonant frequency of a line of cartridges that were notoriously poor tracking cartridges- search the Asylum vinyl board for "Grado Groove Dance." Having said that, I should also point out that the Grado line is also legendary for reproduction of the human voice. Go figure.
The Well Tempered tone arm does not use any bearings at all as these have their own resonant frequency. Rather, and (quoting from the Well Tempered web site) it employs " the tonearm tube on a disc suspended in viscous silicone fluid by two pieces of monofilament. The resulting damping of this unique configuration controls the excursion of the stylus within the record groove.Because of the way the two monofilaments are connected from the damping paddle to the arm base, the anti-skating increases proportionately as the arm moves toward the center of the record." The idea is to remove bearing chatter and thereby improve tracking and tracking is critical to reproduction and maintaining the surface on sometimes irreplaceable vinyl. If you are looking to spend large dollars, the Well Tempered arm at least should be on your short list.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #27 on:** 17 Apr 2006, 03:42 pm »

Larry,

Thx for the input.

I can vouch for the effectiveness of that tonearm silicone bath...the difference was hair-raising on my JVC (homemade aluminum foil trough with 10,000cst silicone). The Audio-Technica AT440ml was virtually unlistenable for any long periods without it....the Ortofon X5-MC benefitted in smaller measure.

The Longhorn mod truly works as a few of us have found. It adds 'weight' (bass, more solid images, etc) to the presentation...and seems to improve tracking a fair amount.

I'll have to look further at the Well Tempered Arm....perhaps a rather ideal marriage might have the Technics SL1200 (with outboard power supply and strobe disabler) and a Well Tempered arm?? Interesting possibilities....

John TCG

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #28 on:** 29 Apr 2006, 02:18 am »

Well, I made the great leap forward today in vinyl replay....I bought dcbingman's VPI HW-19 III.

I did a lot of reading, and tho I thought the KAB SL-1200 was a good value at $1000.00...no one I know of or heard has postively glowed and beamed over it. VPI owners, almost to a man, whether they still own one or did - just seemed to have loved 'em immensely.

The kicker was the considerably sub-$1000 price, the clean look of dcbingaman's particular unit and the upgrade path and traditional VPI service. The excellent Rega 250 tonearm, with all the right mods, factored in greatly, too.

Mated to a $300.00 van den hul re-tipped Blue Point (bought from Klaus at Odyssey), I think I'll have pretty special music flowing for about $1000.00

Thanks for all your (highly considered) inputs on the subject, everyone

soundguy3 · « **Reply #29 on:** 14 May 2006, 10:41 pm »

I can def recommend the MMF-7....sounds great in my system.

SG3

Rocket · « **Reply #30 on:** 15 May 2006, 03:05 am »

Hi The Chairguy,

I don't nothing anything about van den hul (except they make cables) retipped stylus'. I notice that underwoodwally @ audiogon is selling an adcom cartridge which has a van den hul retipped stylus. Its only $149us and i thought i might give it a go.

I guess what i'm asking is does a van den hul retip make much of any improvement?

Regards

Rod

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #31 on:** 15 May 2006, 04:29 am »

Quote from: Rocket

Hi The Chairguy,

I don't nothing anything about van den hul (except they make cables) retipped stylus'. I notice that underwoodwally @ audiogon is selling an adcom cartridge which has a van den hul retipped stylus. Its only $149us and i thought i might give it a go.

I guess what i'm asking is does a van den hul retip make much of any improvement?

Regards

Rod

I can't actually tell you. I never heard a stock Sumiko Blue Point...I bought it already (newly) re-tipped. The one I have is a sturdy little boron job. I think I like it, but I've not fully dialed in the VPI totally yet (the motor still shakes the plinth, and enters into my music unremittingly, too damn much)

VDH tips come in aluminum or boron, depending on who crafts them. You might want to ask Walter/Underwoodwally - if he knows.

For that kinda' money you might want to look at a Denon DL-160 hi output Moving Coil....I've not heard anything but raves about all the Denon's for their respective prices. They are elliptical, not any hyper-elliptical/extreme, stylus shapes tho. US$179 or less if you shop a bit (I think they are cheaper from the UK)

I also own a Ortofon X5-MC (a very similar to VDH stylus) and it's a bit bass/dynamic shy...but it has lovely imaging. Price on that is a bit over US$200 if you look hard.

Rocket · « **Reply #32 on:** 15 May 2006, 09:11 am »

Hi TheChairGuy,

I bought a classic cornet from Hagerman Technology but i use a denon dl103 (which is probably only just run in) low output mc. I have to wait until i can either afford a new cartridge or a step up transformer.

I have spent a lot on toys and need to pay them off.

Regards

Rod

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #33 on:** 15 May 2006, 02:39 pm »

Heck Rocket...

Just get a $100.00 (or, much less sometimes) step up on ebay or something.....I'd think the Denon is a good as any cartridge you'd get for the money....and as it's already mounted in your arm you wouldn't have to do all the fiddly stuff again with your TT.

Audiocubes sells a Denon step up tansformer for US$109.00...brand new....and it's pretty much tailored to your cartridge output of 0.3mv using a bog 'standard' 40db Moving Magnet input on your Classic Cornet preamp.

http://www.audiocubes2.com/brand/Denon.html?osCsid=90aa3b21da4fe643c62aab21b0e5c675

djbnh · « **Reply #34 on:** 15 May 2006, 03:16 pm »

One might consider a used Rega P25, which would leave you $ towards a cartridge. I love the P25 in my system, and the unit responds very well to various tweaks.

Berndt · « **Reply #35 on:** 11 Jun 2006, 05:54 pm »

Quote from: OTL

Beer is one of the most cost effective tweaks I've ever experienced!

I love the humor here...
This is not a joke, right?