[mfsoa]

IF cable break in happens, what has been your experience as far as tonal shift?

I just made an RCA to XLR cable (kinda inexpensive Dayton locking RCA > Canare L-2T2S > Vampire XLR, using Kester 44, shield connected to XLR body, pin 1 jumpered to pin 3) and man, does it sound dark right off the bat. This is in comparison to Tara RSC Ref Gen II (I think) RCA using Neutric RCA > XLR adapter. I always thought the Tara to be a bit lean if anything even before putting in the new cable.

I have no problem admitting if I don't like this cable, or it doesn't synergize with my system, I might not have done a perfect job on it, or it just bites the big one. I was hoping to put more meat on my system's bones, not a blanket!

Anyway, I thought typical break-in (if it happens!!) was to go from zingy to mellower.

Any experiences?

If you do not think cables break in, you may be absolutely right and I have no problem whatsoever with your opinion.

One more thing - I can break these in (If break-in happ... oh forget it) with my CIA D200's switched to standby with tuner playing, right?

Thanks

-Mike

[rollo]

mfsoa,
           Cable break-in like equip break-in is very similar and follows a typical pattern.
      To date I have broken in numerous cables and equip.In the beginning if the midrange sounds good out of the box your usually in for something good.I have found no other telltales.
      Break-in goes like this;sounds good for about 8-10 HRs,then terrible,begins to open slightly[soundstage],the upper midrange begins to come about,then the top end,then back to midrange,then to bass,then low bass ,then the soundstage reaches its max.during each phase it sounds compressed,like its pushing to come through and when it does when you might be listening it is quite amazing.
     Some cables like your experience sound good overall but very compressed.This compression will go away in about 100HRs.The key to break-in is to let it burn straight through.Silver for some reason takes longer say 200HRs in my experience.
     Be patient I have been fooled many times by giving up to soon.Stick it out then you will really know without any doubt.
      Forgot to mention that the soundstage will keep opening while everything else is breaking in.As far as tonality is concerned it definitely will change,I can't begin to tell you how much stuff sounded bright or compressed in the beginning.
      My rule of thumb is 200 HRs for cables,500 HRs for transformer based components and 500HRs plus for digital.Sorry you asked?This is the worst part of our hobby.
      To make things REAL EASY buy a FryBaby break-in device from Haggerman.It works very very well.

[Scotty]

Ten years ago when I was still making IC'c and Speaker cables out of CAT5
cable I always noticed an excessive brightness to the upper midrange that got better after a few weeks of use and the bass and treble extension would also improve some over the same time period. When I switched to Reality Cables they sounded tonally correct from start,but just a little bit hashy.With continued usage that disappeared and the frequency extremes as well as the dynamics improved
considerably over about a months time. I was an early adopter and current users
probably don't go through this sort of breakin period given that he now uses a burn in process via a dedicated machine.
Your experience with cable breakin will vary with cable construction and materials
as well as whether there has been any burn in by the manufacturer before your purchase of the cables.
Scotty

[Ethan Winer]

IF cable break in happens, what has been your experience as far as tonal shift?

If cable break-in really happened, and the frequency response really did change over time, then that change could be easily measured and there'd be no more discussion about it.

--Ethan

[gooberdude]

IF cable break in happens, what has been your experience as far as tonal shift?

If cable break-in really happened, and the frequency response really did change over time, then that change could be easily measured and there'd be no more discussion about it.

--Ethan

Has this been done?     i know very little about the science of audio, but based on my experiences with cable burn-in it seems like it could be measured.    if it can be so easily heard, why can't it be measured??

i've found that every component or cable burns in a bit differently.   last night i received a new length of Flavor 2 power cord, it has loads of bass right out of the box.   Often, the deep bass is the last atribute to show up...

[Pez]

In my experience cables "signature" sound can be detected right off the bat, but the actual sound doesn't come out for a long LONG time.  I can say the worst cables I have ever broken in were Bolder type 1s.  Not that they were bad cables, at the time they were one of the best. But out of the box they sounded horrible! After they broke in they were very laid back and relaxed.  At least that is what I remember.  Bolders newer stuff in my experience has a much easier break-in probably due to the fact Wayne uses a cooker now.  Any way I have also had cables that ummm, for lack of a better term, never break in. 

The biggest thing you can tell is a focusing and deepening of the soundstage.  Cables fresh out of the box for me always sound very 2 dimensional.  They take the better part of 3-5 monther to really focus if they ever do at all.

[rollo]

IF cable break in happens, what has been your experience as far as tonal shift?

If cable break-in really happened, and the frequency response really did change over time, then that change could be easily measured and there's be no more discussion about it.

--Ethan
[  /quote]


Ethan,
           It amazes me that you continue to say cables do not break in.I guess when science CAN measure this effect heard  by the majority and it CAN be proved,will you change your opinion?
          Until you can measure this and prove the manufacturers and our ears wrong,its just your opinion.Next your going to tell us that all cables sound the same.
         I know you have ears.Use them man.I really do not care,what measurements show or if they show anything at all.I will trust what MY ears tell me.
         Prove it to me if you can.I am not saying this to fight with you or start a major debate.We say yes you say no,measure away and post your results.
         Any cable manufacturers out there listening to this? Chime in if you dare.Can we take two identical cables,break one in on a break in device for 200 HRs and then measure any difference between the two?
        rollo

[Pez]

IF cable break in happens, what has been your experience as far as tonal shift?

To answer the original question I have heard a sort of clarifying of treble for cymbals and reduction of sybilance in the "S" sound and "SH" sound in vocals.  A reduction of bloom in bass. And a shifting of midrange vocals from a quieter sort of underwhelmed presentation to a more forward sound. I don't know how to explain it, but that's generally my experience.

[rollo]

eathan,
        Now I get it.Just visited your web site.Its all about acoustic comb filtering.
         Supprise for $6000 to $7000 your products will change everything.I would think in a room after treatment it would be easier yet to HEAR the differences
         rollo

[Pez]

Frequency response and db level are to the audio chain as processor speed is to a computer.  It tells you a little, but anyone that uses it as their bible are using a pretty narrow representation of what is actually going on.  Just like most things in life objective data only goes so far. In audio it most definitely does not go far enough. 

If cable break-in really happened, and the frequency response really did change over time, then that change could be easily measured and there'd be no more discussion about it.

Ethan I ask you this, can you tell me if a set of speakers have a good soundstage using measurements? Can you detect if a set of speakers or an amplifier has good imaging characteristics? Hell can you even tell me what a speaker will sound like based solely on measurements with any sort of accuracy? Why then do you think you can surmise something as complex as break-in doesn't occur or have an effect? You say "you can't measure it, you can't hear it" I say "You can't measure it, you aren't measuring the right thing."

I for one firmly believe that our understanding of how things work is much more cursory than we like to admit.

[acresm22]

Okay, forget about measurements. Instead, take a broken-in pair of cable X and a NIB pair of cable X and alternate them in a test system. Believers should be able to pick the broken-in pair 10 out of 10 times. But this has to be a blind test...you can't know which one you're listening to.
Oh wait, I forgot...double-blind testing is forbidden in high-end audio ; - )

[Steve Eddy]

Has this been done?     i know very little about the science of audio, but based on my experiences with cable burn-in it seems like it could be measured.

Several years ago I sent two sets of cables to Bruno Putzeys to measure using his Audio Precision System Two. Both sets were some Radio Shack "Gold Series" cables. One set was brand new, still in the box. The other set had been in use for about five years in a little receiver based system of my sister's.

Measuring distortion down to -145dB below the fundamental, not only was there no difference between the two cables, there simply wasn't any distortion beyond the residual distortion of the AP rig.

Take it for what it's worth.

if it can be so easily heard, why can't it be measured??

To my knowledge, it has yet to be proved that it can actually be heard or for that matter that there's anything to hear in the first place.

So I guess one can turn the question around and ask, if it can be so easily heard, why hasn't it been proved yet?

se

[Marbles]

Steve, thanks for that info..so far I think that's the only example here (AC) of a qualified (whatever that may mean) professional trying to measure what we are looking for.

[Dan Banquer]

Well, considering I have never heard cable break in, I think it would be fair to ask "what's there to measure?"
           d.b.

[Pez]

If you really want some measurements call Ray Kimber up. I guarantee he has something that is measurable that might help quantify some of this argument.

[Occam]

IF cable break in happens, what has been your experience as far as tonal shift?

If cable break-in really happened, and the frequency response really did change over time, then that change could be easily measured and there'd be no more discussion about it.

--Ethan

I believe we have a problem of 2 different perspectives, separated by a common language.

I and many others often 'voice' their systems, not by any topological changes, but simply by substituting  nominally equivalent components. I'll swap cables, opamps, capacitors, etc.... until the overally subjective perception is more to my liking. And I might well describe those changes as 'deeper bass', 'more extended highs', 'stronger midrange', etc.... and I'm well aware that upon measurement of frequency spectra, I'll find absolutely no difference between the original and my preferred configuration. The problem is that those changes are perceived as spectral changes, although to the extent to which I'm able to measure by accessable instrumentation, I can discern no changes whatsoever. But sadly, I am constrained by my perception to describe it as I hear it, while knowing that description is inaccurate, or at least does not correlate with expected measurements. [nor am I willing to engage in that conversation of 'well thats just a tweako bandaid', because when I substitute a specific $6 opamp for a $3 opamp, and my perception of the net result is what was subjectively unlistenable transformed to groovy and mo' betta, thats good enough...]

Heck, I build power conditioners / noise filters for mains power. But seldom do people react with 'I hearing a lower noise floor', rather I typically hear that the bass is more extended and tighter, the treble more (or less) extended, etc....

Sadly, while I know that whatever changes may be wrought by break-in, cable swaps, passive and/or active component changes may not change a spectral analysis, it is unfortunately perceived as such.
Go figure.
FWIW

[Dan Banquer]

If you really want some measurements call Ray Kimber up. I guarantee he has something that is measurable that might help quantify some of this argument.

So tell me Pez; if call Belden, what do you think they might tell me?
Occam;
    Great post; I hope people take the the time to thoroughly read it.
                 d.b.

[brj]

Measuring distortion down to -145dB below the fundamental, not only was there no difference between the two cables, there simply wasn't any distortion beyond the residual distortion of the AP rig.

Interesting.

I'd be curious to see that level of precision applied to measurements of RLC and conductance.  Typically, the explanations for breakin that I've found most plausible have to do with dielectric changes and changes in conductivity across boundaries (wire to solder, wire to connector, etc.) due to oxidation or whatever.  The other variable that could change over time would be EMI and RFI, but you'd have to measure that in your own environment (even down to different times of day).

[acresm22]

I know no one likes to talk about it, but "aural perception" is a fickle thing. I'd like to know how many experience what I do on a regular basis...I spend an evening in the listening room just loving what I'm hearing, but then I'll go in there the next night and things just aren't gelling. Or I'll fiddle with speaker placement and think I've hit the spot, but then two nights later I'm sliding the speakers back to their original spot because something's out of whack.

Now I could blame that on dirty power or gremlins or something, but I tend to think its all in the mind. And this could tie into the other thread on AC about how to bring more people into this hobby. Many have suggested that what is needed is to get people to listen to music more attentively and not just as background. But heck, some of the most enjoyable music listening experiences I have are when I'm working in the kitchen humming along with Mark Knopfler on the boom box while the kids are playing in the family room. Then, later that night, I'll take that same CD down to the sanctuary and slip into the listening chair with the lits all nicely dimmed for a critical listen...and then suddenly the fun is gone.

[rollo]

IF cable break in happens, what has been your experience as far as tonal shift?

If cable break-in really happened, and the frequency response really did change over time, then that change could be easily measured and there'd be no more discussion about it.

--Ethan

I believe we have a problem of 2 different perspectives, separated by a common language.

I and many others often 'voice' their systems, not by any topological changes, but simply by substituting  nominally equivalent components. I'll swap cables, opamps, capacitors, etc.... until the overally subjective perception is more to my liking. And I might well describe those changes as 'deeper bass', 'more extended highs', 'stronger midrange', etc.... and I'm well aware that upon measurement of frequency spectra, I'll find absolutely no difference between the original and my preferred configuration. The problem is that those changes are perceived as spectral changes, although to the extent to which I'm able to measure by accessable instrumentation, I can discern no changes whatsoever. But sadly, I am constrained by my perception to describe it as I hear it, while knowing that description is inaccurate, or at least does not correlate with expected measurements. [nor am I willing to engage in that conversation of 'well thats just a tweako bandaid', because when I substitute a specific $6 opamp for a $3 opamp, and my perception of the net result is what was subjectively unlistenable transformed to groovy and mo' betta, thats good enough...]

Heck, I build power conditioners / noise filters for mains power. But seldom do people react with 'I hearing a lower noise floor', rather I typically hear that the bass is more extended and tighter, the treble more (or less) extended, etc....

Sadly, while I know that whatever changes may be wrought by break-in, cable swaps, passive and/or active component changes may not change a spectral analysis, it is unfortunately perceived as such.
Go figure.
FWIW

 


Occam,
             You nailed it man.Very well written.No agenda how refreshing.
        IMO if cables were all priced at $5 each.This thread would not exist.it appears its all about the pricing.I believe that even with exotic materials and labor no cable should cost more than $200.
        They are getting these numbers because consumers buy them.If anyone objects stay away,don't buy.If money is not the issue buy away.I am sure the high end cable manfs. are not stupid,they have a plan on marketing.A good one at that.
       Just one more thing.Why is it that when something is expensive the ones who can't afford it put it down or the ones who can afford it are to cheap to spend the money?
       I guess,it boils down to personal choice.My choice,spend wisely and stay away from mega buck cables.IMO any cable over $500 is a rip off no matter how good it sounds.So I buy used when I can.
rollo