[JANDG]

I have been experimenting w/ differant ribbons w/ B200's on 24x36" baffles.. I have a final baffle desighned & is much diiferant than this, but another subject.. Question is: How can a .22uf Auricap in series w/ Aurum Cantus G2 be so good.. I have tried all kinds of XO points & even some steep stuff down to 3000hz with the ribbons & B200. Most seem to run some thing from 10k up, but I am at supposed way above human hearing,, .22uf doesn't mess with my stage or imaging & adds lotsa of air & space to the music, but doesn't give the Ribbon up on location, also no filters on B200 & no padding on the ribbon..just a .022uf Vitamin Q on the input of my tube amps..& OB bass aumentation via BASH plate & vifa M26wr-09-08's @ 150hz, on same baffle..I accidentally did a series hook up with the .22uf Auricap & hit play. The hz getting thru the B200 & ribbon were extremely high , but easily heard....The online calculators show my 1st order XO at way above 20k hz. The dispersion must be a match at this XO,, imaging a outstading.. better than the B200 alone.. anything below a supposed 10k 1st xo & things get wierd..sounstage losses it magic & so forth.. My G2 ribbons are mounted directly above the B200, falnges almost touching, about 1/16" between the 2. If you have a ribbon pair of 96db Eff.. try the .22uf. I don't think many give this thought, because the calculators show this as so far out there that proabaly no-one try it. I have doen this test many, many times in the last months & allways the same.. .22uf is the # in my set up.. adds & does 'nt seem to have a negative of any type..I have tried most every cap value from 6k up..with these 2 drivers..Aagain I use NO filters on the B200 itself & is alllowed to roll naturally ...I have tried most all the posted filters with them & none make me happy..wall treatment does it for me alone so far. The reason I posted this is because I have many months with testing ribbons on top of this B200 & find this simple .22uf cap to be worth mentioning, whether the 170.00 a pop per ribbon is worth it to you is omething else. But if you got them alleardy .please try..

[Brad]

Good idea worth trying!
Welcome to Audiocircle.

When I had B200's, I didn't notice anything missing on the high end and attributed it to my hearing (I'm 40)
I can see the tweeter adding to the 'air' at that frequency.

[JANDG]

Yep, Ill be 40 in a few months..I don't believe in test tones as a top out on what one can percieve. I did by accident find a XO combo that might intrest B200 owners. I changed the .22uf cap to 2uf for 10k 1st on the g2 ribbons, then kept the .022uf Vitamin Q PLLXO in front of the 300B PP amp, kept the 150hz active 4th from BASH plates on the Vifa M26wr-09-08's on same baffle. BUT, what i did that made a surprising a huge differance that some would love I am sure is,,  I put a .22mH foil air coil on the B200,, supposed 4250hz 1st,, but I am sure that is not accurate..It takes the tilted responce away & does not suck much EFF.. out of the driver.. no ressistors in place anywhere in the XO's NO padding on ribbon etc....Stage, imagaing , & fullranger qualities still retained..& No tilted responce as one can hear..doesn't suck the life out of driver as all the filters I have tried with the B200....I actually like this better than how I was running it before...much better balance & can still run flea power tube amps as I like to do , however I am running a 22w 300B PP amp @ the moment..again this is better than all fix it filters I have tried that are published on the net by far....If you got a ribbon set of 96 db eff.. try this combo....

[JohninCR]

With the B200's I didn't really notice a lack of highs, sure cymbals weren't crystal clear, but no fullranger is.  When I played them side by side with another speaker that had a pretty good tweeter, then it was pretty obvious that the top end is quite subdued.  Whether it's necessary is debatable, especially since we've all listened to alot of speakers in cars, TV's, etc that roll off pretty steeply above 10k.  One's hearing would have to cut off pretty early for 10khz vs 20khz extension not to be an audible difference.  Again, it may not be needed by many, since it's a matter of taste, but audible for most and on most music.

With my active system for the B200, I generally just take off -2.5db centered at 1khz and a wide effect .5 Q to take the edge off.  Then I add a little shelving boost above 10khz, and filter out the lows to keep excursion minimal.  With bass augmentation it sounds wonderful to me.  It will be interesting to see how flat the response is once I measure them.  I need to get some ribbons and try JandG's method.

[JANDG]

I admire good wood work & desighn . How would you do the ribbon test witht those beutifull hardwood baffles you have..? Do you have a mule test baffle that is similar..? The Aurum Cantus G2 is good & much betters the Fountek cd3's I have.. If you have access to G2 for 170.00 & under a pop. I would try those.. I haven't tried the g2si, so I don't know how it compares. I think I have read that it compares nice to the g2, for alot cheaper, but I do not know for sure.. I do know that B200's.&  ribbons LOVE each other...if you get a chance JohninCR, try setting test baffles up to match 2uf 1st order 10k on ribbon, w/4250hz  1st roll on the B200, & active cut of 80hz or so on B200.  No padding on ribbon...

[JohninCR]

JandG,

You're right I wouldn't cut into good wood until I ran it on my test baffles.  Regarding the XO stuff, I just connect speaker wires directly to amps and drivers.  Then I can XO and EQ to match any passive combo in seconds and make changes with complete flexibility without even pausing the music or changing the volume.  Plus I never have to purchase any XO components, or worry about their quality, burn-in, etc.

[konut]

I had a discussion with Danny Richie of GR Research about the drawbacks of just cutting in a ribbon with a cap here. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=31585.0 The inductor minimises the drawbacks. The other thing that needs to be noted is the benifit of a better polar response when using a proper XO. The B200s beaming at higher frequencies limits their sweet spot. Another discussion you might want to note is the advantage of a bipolar tweeter as discussed here.  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=36426.0  JohninCR I think you will get the best results by removing those pesky passive components and doing XOs in software not to mention better driver and amp isolation and control. I love the fact that JANDG starts to cut the B200 above 4250hz, avoiding the fundimentals of 99% of all insturments,  and preserves that marvelous midrange that we admire about the Visaton. Great work JANDG!

[JohninCR]

Konut,

You're absolutely correct about going active, and that's exactly what I use with the DSP program from Thuneau .  What amazes me is the low amount of interest shown for the 50% discount for AC members that I negotiated with Jan.  Maybe it's because they told me the notice belonged in industry ads, but it's something any OBer needs, and a powerful tool like that for only $30 or $75 for the full version which includes phase correction.  It's like stealing.  Here's the post:  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=37252.0

[JANDG]

Konut,
Looks as you  allready had the very same idea as I am using now, just done higher up with me, but the same theory.. Danny likes the flatliners..I have well known flatliners in my closet & many other places in my home collecting dust....also Danny doesn't add in the fact that if the amp is HP @ 80hz or so, it cleans up & I can't detect distortion with the ribbon,  G2 in my case, even @ very loud to me SPL's..I am familiar with ribbons that are not behaving & are distorting...not a pretty sound at all..*s*.. I have been listening at fairlly high levels since 5:00am this mourning & it is almost 6:00pm ,,absolutely no fatigue & I want more.. It is going to be a long night. I know that measurements are a great help in desighn . but the ear really is the final test. JohninCR has it going on & I expect he will come up with some seriously intresting stuff for OB fanatics to drool & read about..Fun stuff..

[mcgsxr]

John, that s/w does indeed look powerful, but I don't have the h/w for it, nor do I have my PC in the same room as my system.  That is why I find the Squeezebox so useful, it leverages my router, so the PC stays up in the office, and the music comes out with the system.

I do like the functionality of the s/w though, so if I were to invest in another PC, strictly for music, that would be good.

[JohninCR]

John, that s/w does indeed look powerful, but I don't have the h/w for it, nor do I have my PC in the same room as my system.  That is why I find the Squeezebox so useful, it leverages my router, so the PC stays up in the office, and the music comes out with the system.

I do like the functionality of the s/w though, so if I were to invest in another PC, strictly for music, that would be good.

Mark, I've got it easy.  My office is my listening room and HT.  What you really need is an offboard soundcard with wireless or network capacity.  Mine uses a firewire to the PC, so you could definitely go hardwired but I don't think wireless firewire exists yet.

[JANDG]

Much stouter, & changed to 18" @ top portion, imaging is better @ 18" , the doubling up of 3/4 for 1 1/2" on the bottom portion & dropping the bass driver to the floor w/ the B200 & ribbon moved alot farther away from bass drivers has helped al

ot..

[JohninCR]

I wish I lived close enough to come by for a listen.  I don't own any ribbons, but good ones aren't cheap.

[konut]

JANDG- Wish I could stop by for a listen as well. 

John- You might want to take a look at this test of planar and ribbon tweets http://www.zaphaudio.com/nondomes/
The B&G Neo 3 compares very well to some high priced models. Danny Richie of GR Reaserch uses them quite a lot and likes them a great deal for their flexibility. Its the one I've always wanted to use.

[JoshK]

Konut hit the nail on the head when he was talking about the polar response.  When you try to xo these wideband drivers, it is imperative that you measure the power/polar response in order to determine how and where you cross.  On axis FR is not the guide, especially when using such a large mid driver.

[JohninCR]

Konut,
I've looked at Zaph's site many times, and his info is the biggest reason I haven't bought a tweeter.


Josh,
That may prove to be a big advantage with my dipole midrange waveguides, the main driver's directivity is close to constant.

[JANDG]

I do know of some running Manger & such that swear on the LCY, but they are super tweeter use..John,, with that speaker management system you have ribbons would be fun to play with..2500 is no problemw/ steep filters for high volume listening, If in Washington state sometime, all are welcome for a listen. I am gong to try a rear fire ribbon with my Founteks cd3's. Probablly won't like it .but what the heck,,,I can get fairly high volume with a single 2uf cap on the G2..  but the tube amp does have a HP on the input, only 1st order .01uf for 150hz, but seems to help the B200 & ribbons out, especially the ribbons. I don't think I could get away with a single 2uf cap for 10k without some attempt @ cutting the bass @ 150hz..I am all new to DIY speakers & am learning from all of you...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!