[TheeeChosenOne]

LOL.  That is funny.

I wonder if I can get my cables signed by Elmo (Grover's best friend) since he has more star power at the moment.  I can then Ebay them for 10 times their value!  

==============================
Currently I'm contacting Grover to see if he can add Bybees and Eichmanns for me.  He'll probably do it as he seems to be an expert audio tweaker who loves a challenge.

[TheeeChosenOne]

How are your cables different from the one that TheeeChosenOne mentions and post a link to that also uses an air dielectric also.
Steve Hoffman says, "Grover Interconnects are air core insulated with bare silver wire, nothing touching, with vintage RCA terminators.

Pricing:
1/2 meter pair: $60.00
1 meter pair: $75.00
2 meter pair: $100.00"

That pricing does not look bad to me.

I also think the pricing from Cryotweaks that is also mentioned here is not bad for interconnect with Bybees and shielded with ESR.

Danny,
This promo priced $269/1m Bogdan Silver Spirit also uses an Air Dielectric with Silver Eichmann Bullets....universally raved as a "giant killer" as well.  Price goes up in August to $350 after July 25.  His cheaper cables also have the air dielectric design.

Other Bogdan Cables
http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/search2.pl?seller&Bogdanaudio&1&1&1&

[audioengr]

I have some questions for audioengr from Empirical Audio.

I have looked at the make up your interconnects and the pitch sounds good.

I agree that the best dielectric would have to be none at all and think the non-insolated bare wire concept has merits.

I also would be concerned about oxidation, especially with Copper. Your web site says you use "corrosion inhibitors inside". What exactly are you using for that?

Chemical corrosion inhibitors that are inserted inside the air-tight sealed cable.

Also, to be honest, and all quality issues aside, I think most of these guys here feel like $539.98 for a one meter pair and $609.98for a shielded one meter pair is a bit pricey.

How are your cables different from the one that TheeeChosenOne mentions?

There are several important differences that make them a better value:
1) The dielectric between the wires in my cables is not a layer of suspended Teflon, it is mostly air.  These other designs have one or two layers of Teflon between the two wires, such as the Bogdan.  This increases the dielectric absorption.

2)Durability - none of these cables publish a "pull strength".  Mine can typically withstand 50+ pound of pull without any damage.  If you gave all of these the pull, crush and bend test, mine would be the only one still working after this IME.

3) Metallurgy - I doubt if these other companies have the metallurgy that we do on our wire.  This is a trade secret and virtually eliminates the typical silver sibilance.

4) Noise rejection - my cables have a geometry that rejects noise.  I often use them at trade shows in 15 foot unshielded lengths with great results, such as CES 2002 and HE2003.  I routinely sell 4m and 5m lengths of interconnects.  Designs such as the Bogdan will not have this kind of noise rejection and will be limited to shorter lengths, particularly in RF rich or magnetic-field rich environments.

You get what you pay for.  If you don't need the ultimate in performance or don't care if they break when your dog trips over them, then go ahead and buy the cheap ones.

I also think the pricing from Cryotweaks that is also mentioned here is not bad for interconnect with Bybees and shielded with ESR.

Being a Bybee distributor myself I know what effect they can have.

I happen not to believe in Bybee filters, particularly the way that they are typically used in power supplies, digital signal paths and on cables.  In fact, when I do my mods I typically remove them if they are present in a customers component.  I have not found them to be beneficial except to systems where there is a lot of audible sibilance.  I prefer to go to the root-cause of the sibilance and eliminate it rather than filtering it out.  These bybees just eliminate some of the music when used in this way.

Bang for buck though I will likely still make my own.

I used some 8mm locking RCA's from Apature and Teflon jacketed Silver coated Copper multi stranded wire (18 gauge) to make me a 10 foot pair using a three wire braid and I think I have about $28.00 in the materials for the pair.

I can use the solid Copper Teflon insolated RCA's from SCI with the same wire and built that same 10 foot pair for about $58.00.

It sure sounds good too. It is not quite as good to me as the Geortz but it is a lot cheaper.

As long as it makes you happy.  I have a lot of customers that need much better than this.  They have extremely resolving systems.  Some of them have sources with my mods in them, which makes it doubly important to use very good cables.  The source is extremely clean and sibilant-free, so they dont want cables adding any sibilance.[/quote]

[witchdoctor]

Good points by audioengr. I own the Bogdans and love them for my front speakers. Ben doesn't make long runs needed for my 4 rear speakers.

[witchdoctor]

PS- I use powered speakers thus need long interconnects since I don't need speaker cables. Long speaker cable runs I don't know if he makes.

[Danny Richie]

I like your informative responses. I think it really adds to the discussion.

Also, I apologize in advance if my follow up sounds like it puts me in a advocate roll, but I think I, and maybe several others need a little more convincing before dropping over a grand on two pairs of interconnect.

[/quote]1) The dielectric between the wires in my cables is not a layer of suspended Teflon, it is mostly air. These other designs have one or two layers of Teflon between the two wires, such as the Bogdan. This increases the dielectric absorption.

I am not seeing that on the Bogdan pictured above. It looks like air only.

Are you saying that this makes it more expensive also or just better, because your response to me was in justifying the additional expense of your higher priced cables. it seams to me that leaving out what is unnecessary would make it cheaper.

2)Durability - none of these cables publish a "pull strength". Mine can typically withstand 50+ pound of pull without any damage. If you gave all of these the pull, crush and bend test, mine would be the only one still working after this IME.

I have never had any durability problems with any that I have made or used.

I have had a flexibility problem with some. The Bogdan pictured here is a good example of cables that might present that problem.

I guess durability is something one could be proud of, but  forgive me if I don't give a lot of value to being able to lift a small amp with the interconnects.

3) Metallurgy - I doubt if these other companies have the metallurgy that we do on our wire. This is a trade secret and virtually eliminates the typical silver sibilance.

Ah 99.99% pure Silver from one company may not be as good as the Silver used by another?

Are they cryo treated or something?

I have heard clear differences in power cords that had been treated this way. Is this something that you are referring to?

Since you and I both know that you do not make the wire itself and few companies here in the US actually do, then are you saying you have something special done to the wire after you receive it or something? How is the wire that you receive better?

I have never had a sibilance problem with wire. How can this effect be caused by the wire?

4) Noise rejection - my cables have a geometry that rejects noise.

You mean it is shielded in such a way as to minimize RFI noise or are you saying that you actively filter the noise found in the signal itself? Like the use of a Bybee filter.

Braiding is of coarse also known to cancel out noise. Is your noise rejection more on these lines?

You get what you pay for.

In this market too often you don't get nearly what you pay for. There are companies that are extremely proud of their work. 1 dollars worth of material for every 10 dollars worth of pride doesn't get very far with me.

Sometimes a cable can clearly be better, but each person must ask themselves "is it 10 times as good", because it is 10 times as much, and often even 20 times as much.

I happen not to believe in Bybee filters, particularly the way that they are typically used in power supplies, digital signal paths and on cables. In fact, when I do my mods I typically remove them if they are present in a customers component. I have not found them to be beneficial except to systems where there is a lot of audible sibilance. I prefer to go to the root-cause of the sibilance and eliminate it rather than filtering it out. These bybees just eliminate some of the music when used in this way.

I respectfully disagree with you here.

While you may have control of the noise level your electronics may generate you have no control over the noise level found in your electricity or in the amount of RFI present in a given area.

I am a lucky guy. I live in an area with fairly clean power and little RFI noise.

But if I take a short trip (two hour drive) to Dallas, TX, all is a different story.

The Bybees have there place, and I have not found them to in any way eliminate any part of the music.

As long as it makes you happy. I have a lot of customers that need much better than this. They have extremely resolving systems. Some of them have sources with my mods in them, which makes it doubly important to use very good cables. The source is extremely clean and sibilant-free, so they dont want cables adding any sibilance.[/quote]

I think it is more realistic if I demo a prospective customer a pair of our A/V-1 speakers that I do so with gear they can afford.

I was sold speakers through hi end stores. I once had a store trying out some speaker that I brought in. All sounded great and they loved the speakers, but I thought the $9,000. pair of MIT speaker cables on our $2,000. pair of speakers was a bit unrealistic.

Other speakers we build are among the best sounded and most resolving speakers in the world right now.

Many of the electronics I use are also among the very best made, cost being no object.

If your cables make a noticeable difference I'll know it. If the difference is worth the expense I'll buy it.

Many others here will also. The trick is proving the additional cost is worth the difference. Many others will also question if the price is determined by the performance and what the market will bare or if it is based on the cost to produce. I tend to look at things that way myself.

I am not willing to pay a lot for the pride of others, but do respect the cost involved in producing a product. I may simply look at things that way because I am a manufacturer more often than a consumer.

Care to send out a handful of these for comparison to some of these guys?

Thanks,

[witchdoctor]

How will hearing results from somebody elses system who compared cables help anyone but the listener? Everyone know all this stuff is system dependendent. I think sending stuff out and reading posts is informative but will not provide any more proof of which product is superior than reading the already many posted reviews.
 If on the other hand you are asking him to send you cables for comparison break out your plastic and take a chance. What is there to risk?
If you break down and buy please post as I am sure we will be interested in your experience. What else can audioengr do?
BTW I have never heard  his product, but I do enjoy his posts.

[TheeeChosenOne]

I sent email to many cable makers on my list concerning Eichman and Bybee implementation.

Thus far,
Cryotweaks says they can put an Eichmann Bullet plug on their Bybeed ICs for $30 for the Copper  ($319 total) and $89 for the Silver Bullets ($378).

Ben at Bogdan will also combine Bybee/Eichmann to his ICs as well.  He'll look into it the next 2 weeks.

RS Audio says their cable are "as is".  No tweaks available.    

All in all, I think Bogdan, Cryotweaks and Grover offer the most tweakability for the dollar.  Plus since they are so highly reviewed, it seems as a safe choice that you're getting something very, very, very good.
---------------------------------------------------

Audioengnr,
Thanks for your advice.  You are widely regarded as one of the first tier cable designers out there.   I think nobody questions your expertise or products that are very much first-rate.  Your price-points, however, as Danny pointed out, are outside the realm that I & perhaps others are looking at (i.e. can legitimize spending).

My goal with this thread was to find "sleeper" or little known "starlet" cables that will be major "stars" in the future WITH prices which most audiophiles won't cringe at too severely.  I think the list I assembed is a good one as I have found no reviewers that have found any weaknesses.  Indeed, some on the list have been favorably compared to $8k Nordost Valhallas.

Cabling involves so many theories and unknown crap-shoot variables as system matching to make experimentation the only way to reach a more definitive subjective conclusion.  

You make a case for your theories, but respectfully, so do the other cable makers.  The only way to reach any sort of candidates for trial is to read numerous reviews by others and hope for the best that they did a fair shoot-out.  By taking a cumulative average, one can whittle down to a few designers that consistently design amazing products at different price points.  

I think the list I made has some of these "giant killer" cables (based on other's averaged opinions).  Now it's up to trying them out to see whether one's system gels with them.   I think the odds look pretty darn good.   Especially at these prices!

[audioengr]

I am not seeing that on the Bogdan pictured above. It looks like air only.

The bogdan has each conductor in its own tube.  This placed two layers of teflon tubing between the two conductors.

Are you saying that this makes it more expensive also or just better, because your response to me was in justifying the additional expense of your higher priced cables. it seams to me that leaving out what is unnecessary would make it cheaper.

No, this makes them more difficult to build.  And one must be more clever than just pulling wires through tubing.  This is why my deisgns are patented.

Ah 99.99% pure Silver from one company may not be as good as the Silver used by another?

Exactly.  There is a lot more to metallurgy than just purity.

Are they cryo treated or something?

Something... it's a trade secret.

Since you and I both know that you do not make the wire itself and few companies here in the US actually do, then are you saying you have something special done to the wire after you receive it or something? How is the wire that you receive better?

I have the wire custom-made to my specifications and then I do special processing and take special steps in the assembly as well after I recieve it.

I have never had a sibilance problem with wire. How can this effect be caused by the wire?

I have never heard any other systems other than those with my wire in them that did not have SOME sibilance.  You probably have it, but until it is gone, you will not realize it.  Most of my customers are shocked at how much grunge they used to listen to before they put my cables in.  Just read some of the reviews and my customer feedbacks.
 

You mean it is shielded in such a way as to minimize RFI noise or are you saying that you actively filter the noise found in the signal itself? Like the use of a Bybee filter.

No, the geometry of the cable cancels noise.

Braiding is of coarse also known to cancel out noise. Is your noise rejection more on these lines?

Something like this, except that braiding does not cancel noise very well.  This is a common misconception.
 

In this market too often you don't get nearly what you pay for. There are companies that are extremely proud of their work. 1 dollars worth of material for every 10 dollars worth of pride doesn't get very far with me.

Sometimes a cable can clearly be better, but each person must ask themselves "is it 10 times as good", because it is 10 times as much, and often even 20 times as much.

There are a lot of unsophisticated, uneducated cable vendors out there.  It's unfortunate and makes my job a lot harder.

While you may have control of the noise level your electronics may generate you have no control over the noise level found in your electricity or in the amount of RFI present in a given area.

Actually, you do. With proper grounding and avoidance of ground-loops, the only systems that really have noise problems are those in strong RF fields, such as at the top of hills with transmitting antennas nearby.  In these rare cases, the only thing that works is shielded cables.  I have used unshielded cables at numerous trade shows, in long lengths and never had any noise whatsoever.

The Bybees have there place, and I have not found them to in any way eliminate any part of the music.

You don't know what you are missing until it reappears.
 

If your cables make a noticeable difference I'll know it. If the difference is worth the expense I'll buy it.

Many others here will also. The trick is proving the additional cost is worth the difference. Many others will also question if the price is determined by the performance and what the market will bare or if it is based on the cost to produce. I tend to look at things that way myself.

My customers feel that they are a good value and I charge a price that is based solely on the materials cost and the labor to produce them.  I sell direct, so there is insufficient margin to sell through dealers.

I am not willing to pay a lot for the pride of others, but do respect the cost involved in producing a product. I may simply look at things that way because I am a manufacturer more often than a consumer.

Care to send out a handful of these for comparison to some of these guys?

I've done this in the past to members of this forum.  My cables were found to be the best at the time of that shootout.  My newer designs are even better, but i barely have the time to send samples to reviewers.  We are a small company, so I do a lot of the work myself.

[lonewolfny42]

Chosen One, I've got a sleeper for you,sounds pretty good too! MAD, Modern Audio Designs Pearl 1.Got them on Ebay, look like a Nordost type cable,locking plugs, and no I don't sell'em or work for the company. Here a link -   http://www.modernaudiodesign.com/pearl.shtml

[audioengr]

Thus far,
Cryotweaks says they can put an Eichmann Bullet plug on their Bybeed ICs for $30 for the Copper ($319 total) and $89 for the Silver Bullets ($378).

$89!!! - I charge only $40 to change from copper to silver Bullet Plugs.

[satfrat]

Chosen One, I've got a sleeper for you,sounds pretty good too! MAD, Modern Audio Designs Pearl 1.Got them on Ebay, look like a Nordost type cable,locking plugs, and no I don't sell'em or work for the company. Here a link -   http://www.modernaudiodesign.com/pearl.shtml

           Lonewolfny42, this is the company that makes the interconnect for Cryotweeks, who simply provides the Bybee. Regards, Robin

[lonewolfny42]

Stupid me,I didn't know , but their Pearl 1 sounds good in my system- running tests all day today comparing IC's.

[satfrat]

Stupid me,I didn't know , but their Pearl 1 sounds good in my system- running tests all day today comparing IC's.

           Actually, M.A.D`s Focus is better than the Pearl 1. And if the Pearl 1 made that much of an impact on ya, the Focus w/Bybee should blow your socks off! Regards, Robin

[Danny Richie]

Well Mr. audioengr, I enjoyed your answers.

The bogdan has each conductor in its own tube. This placed two layers of teflon tubing between the two conductors.

That is true, and there is no noise cancelling going on there by the geometry that's for sure.

But, if they were both in the same tube keeping them separated and in a geometry that will cancel noise sounds pretty tricky.

No, this makes them more difficult to build. And one must be more clever than just pulling wires through tubing. This is why my deisgns are patented.

Yea, it does sound tricky now. Sounds like you may indeed have something.

I have never heard any other systems other than those with my wire in them that did not have SOME sibilance.

And it is attributed to the wire?

I have heard some full range drivers that were full of it and a similar full range driver with the same cone, size, etc., but with different parameters have little at all.

I have heard it present in recordings and in the next track on the same CD it was recorded in a way that little is there.

Most of my customers are shocked at how much grunge they used to listen to before they put my cables in. Just read some of the reviews and my customer feedbacks.

I look forward to hearing your interconnects some time in the future.

Your power cords to for that matter.

My customers feel that they are a good value and I charge a price that is based solely on the materials cost and the labor to produce them. I sell direct, so there is insufficient margin to sell through dealers.

That is what I like to hear, and respect.

Yea, sending out samples is great for business. It says, I am confident in my products try it and see for yourself.

I have been sending out speakers this year for free in home auditions and it has been great for business. I have had as many as 9 pair on the demo tour.

They are a lot more expensive to send out than cables too. One pair weighs in at 105 lbs with the shipping crate and those are stand mounted speakers.

Getting them out there in the hands of as many reviewers as possible is good too. If it is good as it appears to be you'll get nothing but positive praises.

We are a small company, so I do a lot of the work myself.

I sympathize with you. It is hard for me to find time to update the web site all the time.

Good luck all your products.

I'll keep you in mind for next years WCES. Some of the clients that I design for will have systems there. One will have some incredible new line sources. There different models in fact.

Maybe you would be interested in providing cables for his exhibit?

[lonewolfny42]

Danny"I have been sending out speakers this year for free in home auditions and it has been great for business. I have had as many as 9 pair on the demo tour. " And I'd like to say thank you for doing it.I think more companys should-without that demo I could not of heard your speakers !!

[Danny Richie]

Hey audioengr,

One more thing.

There is a show coming up in a few months in your neck of the woods that it looks like I will wind up attending, maybe even exhibiting.

http://www.vsac2003.com/

Are you going?

lonewolfny42,

Thanks, and I hope you enjoyed your audition of the Criterion's.

[audioengr]

Danny wrote:

Hey audioengr,

One more thing.

There is a show coming up in a few months in your neck of the woods that it looks like I will wind up attending, maybe even exhibiting.

http://www.vsac2003.com/

Are you going?

lonewolfny42,

Thanks, and I hope you enjoyed your audition of the Criterion's.

As a matter of fact I will be going to VSAC2003.  I already have one distributor using a full set of my cables at this show, OS Services.  I do not plan to exhibit myself there - yet, but I will definitely have some cables with me for trials.  I will be buying an enclosed trailer soon, so I might consider it, however, I mostly attend the big shows, including CES and HE.

I don't recall auditioning any Criterions....

What is WCES??

[Danny Richie]

Well If I can make it to the VSAC2003 I might want to give your cables a listen.

WCES is the Winter Consumer Electronics Show. Held in Vegas. You have been there and just didn't realized it was the "winter" show.

The Criterion's were demo-ed by lonewolfny42. He responded something to that effect right after your last post. That comment was directed to him.

[TheeeChosenOne]

Thus far,
Cryotweaks says they can put an Eichmann Bullet plug on their Bybeed ICs for $30 for the Copper ($319 total) and $89 for the Silver Bullets ($378).

$89!!! - I charge only $40 to change from copper to silver Bullet Plugs.

Well (scratching head), with all due respect,  that is still $378 for a highly reviewed Silver IC with Bybee and[/b] Silver Eichmann bullets vs. $539.98 for a non-Bybeed Holophonic IC you're selling.  Toss in the Bybees in your IC and the savings are portentially that much greater... At least a $250 savings right? (BTW, I know you said you don't use/believe in Bybees).  

Now imagine cabling a system with several of these ICs, then the savings are reflected pretty significantly....