Bryston issue?

amdan · « **on:** 22 Jan 2007, 06:59 am »

For a long while I have been grappling with imaging and brightness issues with my system. I had thought it was a problem with power but have recently discovered that it is a component issue. My setup is as follows:

Cary 303/300 CDP
Supratek Sauvignon tube pre-amp
Bryston 14B ST
B&W 802N
Pure Note Enhanced Paragon Cabling throughout

I had to send the pre-amp back to the manufacturer for repair and so took out the Bryston and put in a Primare A30.1 integrated amplifier.

Voila - the imaging improved dramatically and the brightness is gone! I also gained a lot of bass. However, I lost some detail and dynamics.

This seems to indicate that either the pre-amp or power amp or both caused issues. I then connected the pre-outs from the Primare A30.1 to the Bryston. Imaging degraded considerably and some harshness returned. The bass is much poorer.

There is either a problem with the Bryston or there is a serious synergy problem. I have seens forum posts where it is claimed that a Bryston - B&W combination doesn't work. Can anybody shed some light on this?

Does anybody out there use a Bryston with B&W speakers? Any ideas on how I should resolve this?

James Tanner · « **Reply #1 on:** 22 Jan 2007, 12:57 pm »

Quote from: amdan on 22 Jan 2007, 06:59 am

For a long while I have been grappling with imaging and brightness issues with my system. I had thought it was a problem with power but have recently discovered that it is a component issue. My setup is as follows:

Cary 303/300 CDP
Supratek Sauvignon tube pre-amp
Bryston 14B ST
B&W 802N
Pure Note Enhanced Paragon Cabling throughout

I had to send the pre-amp back to the manufacturer for repair and so took out the Bryston and put in a Primare A30.1 integrated amplifier.

Voila - the imaging improved dramatically and the brightness is gone! I also gained a lot of bass. However, I lost some detail and dynamics.

This seems to indicate that either the pre-amp or power amp or both caused issues. I then connected the pre-outs from the Primare A30.1 to the Bryston. Imaging degraded considerably and some harshness returned. The bass is much poorer.

There is either a problem with the Bryston or there is a serious synergy problem. I have seens forum posts where it is claimed that a Bryston - B&W combination doesn't work. Can anybody shed some light on this?

Does anybody out there use a Bryston with B&W speakers? Any ideas on how I should resolve this?

Just a quick point - what moron would say Bryston does not work with B&W loudspeakers? I find these kinds of unsubstantiated comments ridiculous. There are hundreds of customers and studios worldwide using Bryston and B&W.

james

budt · « **Reply #2 on:** 22 Jan 2007, 05:19 pm »

I run b+w 801 series 3 and also had the nautilus 802.I used/use a bryston pre bp26 , bryston 4b sst amp and a Simaudio moon eclipse cd player. The combo works very very well with the 801s. Frankly I got rid of the Nautilus 802 as they were extremely resolving.They sound fantastic with the bryston if the recording was great but man that combo will show any and all flaws in recordings. Many of my recordings are not that great but I love the music on them.The older B+W's gave me more listening pleasure and that is why I kept the old and got rid of the new.

Levi · « **Reply #3 on:** 22 Jan 2007, 06:26 pm »

I agree with James.

It sounds like synergy. That 14BSST is a pretty nice amp.

Mag · « **Reply #4 on:** 22 Jan 2007, 11:02 pm »

As I said before when I first used my 3B SST, the highs were foreign to me. Why because I never had or heard this quality of amp before.( I know your talking about an ST) From many years of listening you're used to hearing mid-grade amp/receivers. But this is how music is really suppose to sound, on the bright side and lively.
I suggest listening to your Bryston and B&W speakers for at least a month so that you can adjust to the new sound. Once you're used to it then you won't even notice the brightness, it'll sound normal to you.
This applies of coarse only if you don't have acoustic issues that are your real problem.

amdan · « **Reply #5 on:** 23 Jan 2007, 01:07 am »

James - moron is probably the right word. I very much doubt there is anything wrong with a Bryston-B&W combination. However, I am trying to keep an open mind.

Mag - I have this combination for 5 months.

I am going to borrow a friend's 4B SST to replace my 14 B ST. Then I will know if it is simply a fault in my unit.

Levi · « **Reply #6 on:** 23 Jan 2007, 01:28 am »

Hmmm...I would also try to replace B&W speakers and see if that makes a difference. Finding synergy could be a lifetime pursuit. I wish you luck.

elcaptain88 · « **Reply #7 on:** 23 Jan 2007, 01:33 am »

I suppose I'm a moron then

- because I never got on with the sound of B&W's or Bryston's 'ST' range of amplifiers. I would - as you guessed it - categorize the combination as a bit harsh and unnatural on many recordings. I think it has more to do with the B&W's (I demoed N804's & 803's extensively) than the Bryston amps - but the old ST's always seemed a little rough up top for my tastes. The newer SST's improve in that area.

Levi · « **Reply #8 on:** 23 Jan 2007, 01:38 am »

You are not a moron and I wish you stop using that word.

Let us know what you find out between the ST and SST I think you are in right direction.

muski · « **Reply #9 on:** 23 Jan 2007, 07:18 am »

James --

I am shocked at your utter lack of civility. Does the President of Bryston know that you call customers 'morons' on your forum? If you worked for my company you would be fired instantly for such behavior. I didn't think amdan's post was moronic. Yes, it was somewhat esoteric -- he was referring to the rather subjective issue of system synergy. This is an audiophile forum, and at some point the whole thing gets rather subjective and people express unsubstantiated opinions. If this bothers you so much that you lose your cool on a public forum, then I suggest you're working in the wrong industry.

My appetite for purchasing more Bryston gear has been significantly diminished.

Seems even the moderator needs moderating...

slbender · « **Reply #10 on:** 23 Jan 2007, 07:58 am »

Hi Amdan -

Well everybody who has answered in this thread, is unfortunately, quite, totally, WRONG.

The B&W's are nice speakers, but may be difficult to drive, each speaker has its little quirks, as it is a complex set of inductors, capacitors, resistors, and voice coils (and the room - never forget the room). What you have seems, to me, to be a bunch of very high priced, not faulty, but perhaps incompatible due to non-complementary imperfections - combination of audio components.

Now the system you have owned for fivemonths and have questions about includes a Supratek Sauvignon tube preamp and a Bryston transistor power amp. That, simply stated, is not always a good combination. So there is a problem. What is the The Cause and The Result ? Tube Preamps usually are designed to work best feeding into a 250K ohm to 1Meg ohm load. Transistor Amps can have way too low an input impedance: 20K, 30K, 50K ohms are common values... which, when driven by a Tube Preamp, perceptually will cause: a decrease in the Bass, and possibly audible distortion in the treble. This is because the preamp REALLY doesn't like the load it is being forced to drive.

Secondly, this may be especially problematic and exacerbated, if using high quality Inter-Connect Cables which may have also added way too much capacitance onto the tube circuitry, so this combination could also show brightness, harshness, or smear in the treble. Yes, your Bryston 14B ST is a monster of an amp, and powerful due to bridged operation, with its 0.1% metal-film resistors, polystyrene capacitors, and hand-selected/matched transistors to reduce noise and distortion... But. So what?

BECAUSE... Power isn't always The Solution.

In other words, Amdan, the signal is getting mangled at the output of your Supratek Sauvignon tube preamp, due to the grossly mismatched Input Impedance: 50k ohms unbalanced, 20k ohms balanced; that your Bryston power amp's input circuitry presents to it. That being both the electrical cause and effect, and also what you report that you hear, neither the Brystons' 900 Watts per channel into 4 ohms, nor all the 0.1% metal-film resistors, polystyrene capacitors, or hand selected transistors in the world can fix it. A "properly matched" $500. amp would sound much better, given your combination of components, and wires, than your $5995. Bryston does. Lugging over the Bryston 4B SST is really just more of the same (but less power) so that won't help either...

And lastly, everyone's hearing is every bit as different as the speakers you own. System Synergy is tough to find, and insults do not help one to find it. I'd say try a few amplifiers, see what you like.

P.S. - The Bender Amps that I design, both the ULT Transistor ones, and the new Pseudo SET Tube types, have 100K ohm and 1 Meg ohm input impedance's respectively, and they work fine with all known Tube Preamps ( as well as Transistor Preamps, and Passive Preamps ).

BTW. - Currently, I have two of my early built "Prototype" ULT Level 2, and Level 3 Stereo Power Amplifiers on eBay priced at just $350. each; and also two of my current Bender ULT Rebuild Kits priced at a reduced $150. for the Level 2, and $350. for the Level 3A, with less than 2 days to go...

Steven L. Bender, Designer of Vintage Audio Equipment

Quote from: amdan on 23 Jan 2007, 01:07 am

James - moron is probably the right word. I very much doubt there is anything wrong with a Bryston-B&W combination. However, I am trying to keep an open mind.

Mag - I have this combination for 5 months.

I am going to borrow a friend's 4B SST to replace my 14 B ST. Then I will know if it is simply a fault in my unit.

Slingshotx · « **Reply #11 on:** 23 Jan 2007, 09:49 am »

In danger of also being completely wrong; however is slbender's post relevant if the original poster states his system exhibits the same issues and problems without the Supratek involved in the system at all?

I'm guessing that if your friends 14b sst also sounds the same you may want to look at trying other different components, I'd also suggest that you try the Primare for a few days, I recently went through a similar process when my power amp died (not Bryston) and used an old Arcam integrated, at first it seemed smoother, however after a day or 2 of listening I changed my mind and decided the top end may have been smoother however at the expense of Bass tightness and detail at the top.

Slingshot

James Tanner · « **Reply #12 on:** 23 Jan 2007, 12:18 pm »

Quote from: muski on 23 Jan 2007, 07:18 am

James --

I am shocked at your utter lack of civility. Does the President of Bryston know that you call customers 'morons' on your forum? If you worked for my company you would be fired instantly for such behavior. I didn't think amdan's post was moronic. Yes, it was somewhat esoteric -- he was referring to the rather subjective issue of system synergy. This is an audiophile forum, and at some point the whole thing gets rather subjective and people express unsubstantiated opinions. If this bothers you so much that you lose your cool on a public forum, then I suggest you're working in the wrong industry.

My appetite for purchasing more Bryston gear has been significantly diminished.

Seems even the moderator needs moderating...

Hi All,

Well moron is a little strong and I was not calling amdans a moron I was referring to his comments about other forums commenting on how B&W does not work with Bryston. I have heard Bryston many times with B&W and in fact the first time I audition a 14B it was at a reviewers home on a large pair of B&W's - it sounded excellent.

People out there who throw out generalized uninformed opinions without thought or consideration really irritate me. I find this business full of half truths and I try to provide scientific knowledgeable information for our customers.

I guess I was in a bad mood that day and your right moron is inappropriate and insulting - my apologies.

james

PS - I can not be fired.

mfsoa · « **Reply #13 on:** 23 Jan 2007, 01:08 pm »

Slbender,
Nice to see an add for your product on another manufacturers forum!

If only AC had someplace else to place Industry Ads...

jethro · « **Reply #14 on:** 23 Jan 2007, 01:44 pm »

In case anybody feels Slbender's post has bent the new rules:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=36051.0

I don't see any problem with Slbender's post. This is actually a Bryston/PMC Owner's Circle
and not a Manufacturer Circle. Not everybody is using Bryston gear to drive their PMC
speakers. As suggested by mfsoa, you might get better coverage posting to Industry Ads
as well if you haven't done so already.

Update:

It's my turn to apologize. Ads for specific items (i.e. with prices) should in fact go in Industry Ads
if you are involved with Audio for financial gain. Product descriptions (with MSRP) in response to member's
queries are fine and welcome in the PMC/Bryston Circle. Non-industry members can place the main
description of a Bryston/PMC item for sale in the market place with a short thread in the Bryston/PMC circle
pointing to the ad. I originally missed the parts of slbender's post referring to specific items.
Sorry for confusing everybody, especially mfsoa.

mfsoa · « **Reply #15 on:** 23 Jan 2007, 01:51 pm »

Oops - Sorry if I failed to make the distinction between the Owners Circle and the Mfgs circle.

Maybe I was guilty of trying to self-police a bit in light of the recent rule "sorting-out".

Levi · « **Reply #16 on:** 23 Jan 2007, 03:06 pm »

What rules...we are laxed.

James, you cannot be fired and cannot be replaced! Bua ha ha ha

Sasha · « **Reply #17 on:** 23 Jan 2007, 08:30 pm »

Based on my extensive experience including the ownership of some models from the manufactures in question (B&W, Bryston), my preference, and what I consider to be the best approximation of un-amplified acoustic instruments’ sound (what I measure components against), I would say that Bryston and B&W are definitely not a match.
In fact, there is no single B&W speaker I would buy out of all I auditioned, including 802D, what was the top model I had opportunity to hear and consider to purchase.
I consider B&W midrange performance very poor, and the rest an average.
So B&W I owned was sold.
On the opposite side, I consider PMC to be quite a good bang for the back in respective price brackets. Although I had no chance to audition IB2 (nowhere to be found), I made a leap of faith and bought it, considering positive experience with lower models.
As far as the Bryston goes, although I bought one, I do not find it completely satisfying in MF/HF (including imaging, soundstage, and presence of harshness), unless some good quality tube pre-amp is used to somewhat alleviate such “issues”. But tubes can and often do introduce “problems” in other areas.
And power does matter as far as LF performance goes.
What I will try to do in the end, when all the equipment arrives, is to drive MF/HF drivers with amp whose performance in this area I like very much, while LF will be driven by Bryston.
So if I was in Amdan’s shoes, I would get rid of B&W, keep Bryston, get PMC, and play with different pre-amps (or even bi-amp), till the “right” sound is found

And this is all based on my preference and my experience, no need to get excited

slbender · « **Reply #18 on:** 23 Jan 2007, 09:05 pm »

If what ? I don't recall reading any statements made about the system issues - without the Supratek preamp in use... Are you making this up or being hypothetical ?

Steven

Quote from: Slingshotx on 23 Jan 2007, 09:49 am

In danger of also being completely wrong; however is slbender's post relevant if the original poster states his system exhibits the same issues and problems without the Supratek involved in the system at all?

Slingshot

WEEZ · « **Reply #19 on:** 23 Jan 2007, 09:16 pm »

Read the original post again.

The 'issues' seemed to be there with the Primare as a pre-amp also. The Supratek pre-amps are stated to be fine with solid state amplifiers. A high input z in the amplifier is nice, but the Bryston 50k z should be fine.

Sounds like there is a problem with the Bryston.

WEEZ