Digital Amp Comparison 2007

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shep

Re: Digital Amp Comparison 2007
« Reply #140 on: 18 Mar 2007, 08:28 pm »
Will Trends still rule??? :duh:

Tweaker

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Re: Digital Amp Comparison 2007
« Reply #141 on: 18 Mar 2007, 09:06 pm »
It will be interesting to hear what is said about the Patek gainclone, especially after reading Srajan Ebaen's slightly enthusiastic review at 6moons:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/audiosector/patek.html
The Onkyo, in my mind, is already a winner for offering an audiophile quality two channel integrated with a phono stage, no less, at an very affordable price.
All in all a great line up of amps! Looking forward to the results and ensuing discussions.

arthurs

Re: Digital Amp Comparison 2007
« Reply #142 on: 18 Mar 2007, 10:52 pm »
A question you can answer, I think.....was the final total for amps and integrateds 11 pieces tested ? (ask per Stereo Mojo )
Thanks........... :thumb:


It was actually a total of 14 Chris....8 integrateds and 6 power amps...

Integrateds:
Sonneteer Bronte
Trends TA-10
Sonic Impact Super-T
Onkyo A-9995
Panasonic Digital Receiver (don't have the model at my fingertips)
Nuforce IA-7
Flying Mole CAS-10
Little Dot T-100

Power Amps:
Lyngdorf
Nomad
Cary
Dodd
Patek
Flying Mole

lonewolfny42

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Re: Digital Amp Comparison 2007
« Reply #143 on: 18 Mar 2007, 10:54 pm »
Thanks Art !! :thumb:

arthurs

Re: Digital Amp Comparison 2007
« Reply #144 on: 18 Mar 2007, 11:02 pm »
You got it buddy!  :D

As for all other inquiries, I know it's tough, but please be patient, there is copius amounts of commentary to compile from both days and it's just going to take some time.  My other life and job need some attention as well, but I'll push as hard as I can to get this stuff together and ready for publication. 

I promise you this however, you've never seen this level of detail or feedback in a shootout before!


JDarby - Stereomojo.com

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Re: Digital Amp Comparison 2007
« Reply #145 on: 19 Mar 2007, 08:04 pm »
Hey guys,

Thank you ALL once again for your time and the great work. For all of you who want preliminary info, they haven't even told ME anything yet! And I am not going to rush them or pressure them.

Everybody, bear in mind that this is not intended to be a purely scientific endeavor. We all know very well that there are flaws in a single-blind test, just as there are flaws in ANY test or review. I know Danny and the guys did their very best to conduct an honest and unbiased test. That is good enough for me. My hope is that once the results are published, the discussion will center on the results and not the methods. Again, we stipulate the test was not perfect. No buying decisions should ever be based on one test anyway. What Stereomojo attempts to do is provide a source for as much fair and unbiased information as possible - and have a bit of fun doing it.

Let's all have fun digesting and discussing the results, but please, keep in mind that no one was paid for their time or expertise. They did this out of their passion for music, audio and helping others in their quest for good sound at a reasonable price. Play nice!

Thanks!

JDarby - Stereomojo.com

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Mr. Hilgerman,
« Reply #146 on: 19 Mar 2007, 08:43 pm »
While you are correct that Class D amplifiers are switching devices, you are incorrect in stating that they are "completely analog from input to output". There is a digital element. Class-D amplifiers convert an input signal to a power 1-bit digital output signal, that is the output signal is either a 1 (say +70V) or a 0 (say -70V). The rate at which the output switches is much higher than audio frequencies (say 500kHz). This rate is controlled by a reference clock signal. The ratio between the average time spent at +70V and -70V varies in proportion to the input signal. That is if the input signal is say more than 0V, then the output correspondingly spends more time on average at +70V than -70V and so on. This ratio is also controlled by the clock signal. The 500kHz switching signal is removed by analogue filters so that only the average signal passes to the loudspeaker, and as stated, this is controlled to be in proportion to the corresponding input signal.

We will clarify this when the results are published and explain what Class D is all about.

PaulHilgeman

Re: Mr. Hilgerman,
« Reply #147 on: 19 Mar 2007, 09:34 pm »
While you are correct that Class D amplifiers are switching devices, you are incorrect in stating that they are "completely analog from input to output". There is a digital element. Class-D amplifiers convert an input signal to a power 1-bit digital output signal, that is the output signal is either a 1 (say +70V) or a 0 (say -70V). The rate at which the output switches is much higher than audio frequencies (say 500kHz). This rate is controlled by a reference clock signal. The ratio between the average time spent at +70V and -70V varies in proportion to the input signal. That is if the input signal is say more than 0V, then the output correspondingly spends more time on average at +70V than -70V and so on. This ratio is also controlled by the clock signal. The 500kHz switching signal is removed by analogue filters so that only the average signal passes to the loudspeaker, and as stated, this is controlled to be in proportion to the corresponding input signal.

We will clarify this when the results are published and explain what Class D is all about.

Hey All, again, thanks for doing this, and for all of your hard work.

James - Keep in mind that due to the nature of the comparators in all of these devices that the timing ratios of the on/off state of each transistor is infinite. 

It could be considered digital in that there are only two states that the output can exist at, and digital typically means that a signal could be replicated by 'ones' and 'zeros'; however.... these ones and zeros have to have an associated sampling frequency in order to be meaningful.  However, because of the nature of an analog input and a triangle wave comparator as used in most of these devices, the duration that the output will be either a one or a zero is neither linked to some higher sampling frequency, nor are the possibilities of how long the output can remain in that state less than infinite.  The one thing that is certain, is that the output will switch states at a frequency greater than double that of the frequency of the triangular wave used in the comparator, but we know nothing more than that, and that alone does not make the system digital.

Now, you might thing that this sounds like PWM (Pulse Width Modulation), and it is, because the width of the pulse in infinitely variable.  What you are referring to is PCM, where there is a time duration associated with the width of the pules, i.e. there is a relationship to some sampling frequency... this is like sony DSD etc, the time spent in one state will ALWAYS be related to the sampling rate in one way or another. 

Here is a good article on Class D amplifiers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switching_amplifier

And notice how this article on PWM:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse-width_modulation

differs from this one on PCM:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse-code_modulation

Because these amplifiers are comparing a triangular wave (purely analog of course) to an analog input, and switching the output once per intersection, there is no possible way to quantify how long the output will remain in one state before it will switch to the other state, other than we know it will be in less than one half of one cycle of the triangular wave.

At least this is the way all of the amplifiers I build work, and I am about 95% sure that the ICE and Tripath chips work the same way.

Correct:

Quote
...the output signal is either a 1 (say +70V) or a 0 (say -70V). The rate at which the output switches is much higher than audio frequencies (say 500kHz). This rate is controlled by a reference clock signal. The ratio between the average time spent at +70V and -70V varies in proportion to the input signal. That is if the input signal is say more than 0V, then the output correspondingly spends more time on average at +70V than -70V and so on

Incorrect:

Quote
This ratio is also controlled by the clock signal

It is controlled by the intersection of the clock signal and the input signal, and the only way for this to work at all is if the clock signal is a triangle wave (common), or a sawtooth wave (uncommon).  Clock sometimes implies square wave, so I just wanted to make that clear.

Hope this helps,
Paul Hilgeman

Milehighguy

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Re: Digital Amp Comparison 2007
« Reply #148 on: 27 Mar 2007, 07:09 pm »
BARGAIN HUNTER'S ALERT!
The Little Dot T-100 tripath integrated amp that is in the shootout (supplied by Danny) is on sale in "limited quantities" until March 31 (4 days from now). It's marked down from $499 to $399 at www.musical.ca

It comes with a 30 day trial period, so there is little risk in trying it out.  aa

DARTH AUDIO

Re: Digital Amp Comparison 2007
« Reply #149 on: 27 Mar 2007, 10:10 pm »
James, can we get an idea how the Halcro MC-20 Class D amp (just reviewed @ Stereomojo) compares to the rest of the amps that were in the shootout? I'm going to try one this weekend. Just wondering.

Thanks,

Gary

DZetye

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Re: Digital Amp Comparison 2007
« Reply #150 on: 31 Mar 2007, 03:29 pm »
So are the results on schedule to be posted today?

bummrush

Re: Digital Amp Comparison 2007
« Reply #151 on: 31 Mar 2007, 04:57 pm »
Serve up those results,no need to be waiting til midnight for the goodies to come out.

robert1325

Re: Digital Amp Comparison 2007
« Reply #152 on: 31 Mar 2007, 05:01 pm »
Yeah cummon !!!

JDarby - Stereomojo.com

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Re: Digital Amp Comparison 2007
« Reply #153 on: 31 Mar 2007, 05:24 pm »
Not this weekend. I just got the results for the INTEGRATED amps a few days ago and have to organize them, add pictures, graphics and other things. I also need to add my personal comments on each round. Then I need to send all that back to Danny & Art to check for accuracy. While we want to get the results out ASAP, we want to do it right, so please be patient. I will give you a clue - the Panasonic receiver did not win...javascript:void(0);

James Darby
Publisher _ Stereomojo

brj

Re: Digital Amp Comparison 2007
« Reply #154 on: 31 Mar 2007, 05:39 pm »
To be fair, the Panasonic only starts to punch above its price point when used via the digital input, thus enabling a complete "digital" signal path.  The reasons for not running it in that manner for this comparison were entirely valid, but that shouldn't stop others from evaluating it if they are able to use it in its more optimal configuration (and even more so if they are willing to pursue mods).

Art did an absolutely fantastic job with the shootout, but knowing how you intend to use a component should always be considered when reading reviews of any kind.

Audioexcels

Re: Digital Amp Comparison 2007
« Reply #155 on: 31 Mar 2007, 05:48 pm »
Sorry for us impatient or patient ones, but you shouldn't say "results coming sometime later in March" and in the least, this should be corrected on your website to, "results coming sometime this spring or summer"...or just leave the date part out of things and if people want to know when the results will be coming, tell them what stage you are at...for example, you could even state on the website your progress, but still leave out your "anticipated" or any type of established dates of publication.  I think this would help those that are looking everyday (like me) for the results to be "actually" looking for more information regarding publication of results or to plainly not have established dates of publication so no one is anticipating anything.  We all know how difficult this is to do, but at least consider what you write before you go without publicating your writing.

maxwalrath

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Re: Digital Amp Comparison 2007
« Reply #156 on: 31 Mar 2007, 06:25 pm »
It's such a big shootout I think it'd be fine to publish the articles seperately (1 issue amps, 1 issue integrated)

arthurs

Re: Digital Amp Comparison 2007
« Reply #157 on: 31 Mar 2007, 06:27 pm »
The delay is on me, a couple of unexpected life events put me behind schedule a few days and I just finished writing everything up this past week, also keep in mind there were 8 rounds of shootout over two Saturdays and around 100 reviewer sheets to compile and condense. so it was a bit of a job in the last couple weeks even if nothing interfered.  James has all the info now so we shouldn't be too long before we're in print.  Thanks in advance for a bit of patience and understanding.

maxwalrath

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Re: Digital Amp Comparison 2007
« Reply #158 on: 31 Mar 2007, 06:31 pm »
keep in mind there were 8 rounds of shootout over two Saturdays and around 100 reviewer sheets to compile and condense

 :o  dang.

marvda1

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Re: Digital Amp Comparison 2007
« Reply #159 on: 31 Mar 2007, 06:33 pm »
audioexcels, if he didn't give a time frame you would post everyday asking when.