[finsup]

I'm not sure how to approach this as I have a number of questions.  I could start several threads but I think I will try and keep my questions within this one thread, at least at first.  If it becomes unworkable, well, we'll see how it goes.

I have speakers for two systems:  PBN Montana XPs which will be my primary system and Klipsh Fortes which, for now, will be in my secondary system.  My emphasis is on the Montanas since I may replace the Klipsch in favor of something a little smaller.  I am sure I won't be swapping in components.  Rather, I want to audition as carefully and choose the best components that will be the best fit -- and let it go at that.  Really.   

The room:  Like many, the room I'll be using the Montanas in serves double duty as a living room and home theater/listening room.  The only acceptable room treatments are those already found in it -- the furniture.

Music:  Think Renee Olstead, Alison Krauss, Loreena McKennit, Alan Jackson, soundtracks (such as What Women Want and Shall We Dance?).

The questions.

1.  Selecting system components and system matching, how much consideration should one give to choosing an amp and pre-amp that have both balanced and unbalanced connections?  I have read that balanced can sound better but I am sure that one cannot assume that a balanced system will necessarily sound better.

Still, I am starting with an almost clean sheet of paper, and while I will try and audition several types of equipment where I can to see what sounds best to me given my speaker choice and room acoustics, I'd like to know if YOU could start completely over again, would you give any weight at all to whether or not the amp/pre-amp had any balanced connections?  I will want to at least try tubes somewhere in the system, if that makes a difference.

Thanks,
--Michael

[G Georgopoulos]

Hi
I am going to give you a general advice on this
first you have to know how much money you have to spend
second you have to know what system is it that you want to setup
here are some suggestions

options
-new
-used

equipment
-discrete
-integrated

components
-1
-cdplayer
-receiver
-loudspeakers

-2
-cdplayer
-amplifier
-loudspeakers

-3
-cdplayer/dvdplayer
-preamplifier
-amplifier
-(fm/digital tuner)
-loudspeakers

the best source is cd/dvd also keeping the system minimum
is best, the quality of the system will depend on the quality
of its components

the best way to assess a component is through listening specs
will tell you very little

prices, you might find something you like costly,that happens
you just reconsider your options and your budget to come
to a desicion you can live with

hope that helps

if this is your first system dont worry too much about getting the
best,you have to start from somewhere then develop it to
something better by buying more components

cheers
http://georgopoulos.awardspace.com

[JohnR]

To answer the question... no, I wouldn't bother about balanced connections.

[JLM]

Welcome Michael,

Balanced connections are used in professional settings where miles of cable are running parallel and the signals bleed into the adjoining cables.

We need to know your constaints (room size, wife acceptace factors, budget, can you DIY, etc.)

[finsup]

We need to know your constaints (room size, wife acceptace factors, budget, can you DIY, etc.)

The room is like a letter "F" stood on its head.  The long axis is about 30'x18'x8' or about 4300 CF.  There is a side hallway and the end of the room adjoins the kitchen.  The listening area is about 8 fee from the speakers and because of the furniture, the speakers are less that at the optimum distance from each other.  In this case, they are about 5 feet apart from the inside edges.  Regretably, there is a TV between the two.

A brick fire place occupies the left side of the room in the listening area.  The right wall has a mirror about 18 feet long and 5 feet high running the length of it.  Furniture is a mixture of leather and wood.  The floor is hardwood with an area rug placed in front of the speakers.

These are not ideal conditions by any means but it is what it is.  I intimated the spouse acceptance factor by suggesting above that room treatments are limited solely to the furniture on hand.  My budget to complete the primary system (source, amps, and maybe a processor) is up to $6.5K. 

To answer the question... no, I wouldn't bother about balanced connections.

Why?  Let's say for a moment that I initially begin to select components based on how well it sounds without regard to whether they have balanced connections or not.  At some point, though, I might add a component that has both.  Now I am faced with a system that has incompatible (?) equipment.

I admit to having limited understanding here so bear with me.  I don't want to oversimplify but don't most signals from the source to the speaker get converted  back and forth between an unbalanced signal to balanced back to unbalanced?  If one has truly balanced components, it seems to me that you eliminate a lot of circuitry, and thus potential for noise?
--Michael

[jeffreybehr]

" At some point, though, I might add a component that has both (balanced and RCA inputs).  Now I am faced with a system that has incompatible (?) equipment."

No, you're not.  Now you have ONE compenent that can use either cabling system.  Altho balanced cabling has advantages in professional use, as JohnR wrote, I too would NOT bother with balanced components and cabling.  I believe there's good reason that MOST home-audio equipment does not have balanced connections--they do no GOOD and hence are a waste of money.

Here's another piece of advice, worth probably exactly what you paid for it--quit worrying the details and pay attention to the big things.

I feel loudspeakers are the most-important component in your system, so pick them first.  That choice will create power requirements, etc.  So start at the end and work back.

[finsup]

Here's another piece of advice, worth probably exactly what you paid for it--quit worrying the details and pay attention to the big things.

I feel loudspeakers are the most-important component in your system, so pick them first.  That choice will create power requirements, etc.  So start at the end and work back.

Well, that is good advice, thank you.  I did start with the speakers, PBN Montana XPs.  And, come to think of it -- they are "big things".  And now that I have the speakers, isn't "worrying about the details" what drives this and other forums?

Really, I am not trying to start an argument.  I was just curious and I wanted to map out the next steps by asking that question.  So, I'll take your advice and, if applicable, listen to the new equipment in both balanced and unbalanced modes.

These answers do make things easier.  I see Response Audio has an interesting deal on a pair of Mahi-Mahis monoblocks and a Shrimp pre-amp.  The Manleys are unbalanced.  And there is a Super Vac Avatar for sale on Audiogon.

That takes care of my first question and could be a perfect segue into another question, integrated or separates?  I have some other questions;  I'm not sure if that is one of them but I am here in Colorado on holiday and I've written out my questions back home in San Diego.
--Michael

[Christof]

Keep a close eye on the weakest link, which for me has always been speakers.  I can switch 10 amps in and out of my system or 10 preamps or change my CDP but nothing makes a difference like speakers.  Everyone here has different views but IMO it's important to focus on finding speakers I like and then fine tune my system with wires, amp swps, etc.... 

I personally hear no difference b/t balanced and unbalanced in my system.

[Bill Baker]

I did start with the speakers, PBN Montana XPs

 Hello Michael, The XP (or XPS?) are very intriguing speakers. While they do have a decent efficiency, I would recommend more considering a higher power tube amp to drive them. You could easily get away with 20 watts or so but to bring out their full dynamic potential, consider more power.

 I have a customer that has an older pair of Montana speakers (don't recall the model) that was very happy with a 30 watt tube amp on them for about a year until he decided to audition a more powerfull 100 watt unit. The 30 watter was sold on AudioGon and I never did get the 100 watter back.

 This will be another one of those personal decisions based on your listening preferences and habits.

[Rob Babcock]

If you end up with some components with just RCA and some balanced you can easily & cheaply buy adapters or cables with XLR on one end and RCA on the other.  I do this with one peice, in fact.  Don't worry about it.

[JohnR]

To answer the question... no, I wouldn't bother about balanced connections.

Why?  Let's say for a moment that I initially begin to select components based on how well it sounds without regard to whether they have balanced connections or not.  At some point, though, I might add a component that has both.  Now I am faced with a system that has incompatible (?) equipment.

Hi, I'll elaborate. There's a philosophy about balanced components (strictly speaking, I think they should be called differential, but anyway...), which goes like this. Suppose your DAC (the actual chip) has differential outputs i.e. two outputs which are the exact opposite of each other in phase. Suppose also that you also use a push-pull tube or transistor power amplifier, in which the output stage is driven by two signals that are the exact opposite of each other in phase. There's an inherent appeal to using differential circuitry in the whole amplification chain, since that avoids any "conversion" from single-ended to differential.

This is even more appealing if you use vinyl as a source, since the cartridge output is inherently a differential signal. (The book Valve Amplifiers by Morgan Jones is a good example of this philosophy.)

The drawbacks are that 1) this costs more, including not just the electronics but also things like cables and the volume attenuator, and 2) mixing and matching becomes more difficult, since most equipment out there is not "balanced." And, I don't think there's ever been any conclusive evidence that a fully-differential chain of electronics inherently sounds better.

The mixing and matching part is where the pitfalls are. This is where you will ruin any gains from your expensive balanced equipment. Particularly on the output side: a component that is inherently single-ended can get a balanced output by... adding more circuitry to generate the out-of-phase signal. On the input side, just because a component has a "balanced" input doesn't mean that the internal circuitry is differential. You will see manufacturers claiming "true balanced" because of this little trick that some manufacturers play because of the cachet of being "balanced."

So, overall, "balanced" implies higher cost and greater complexity, with no sure return. If you found a truely-differential chain of amplification that floated your boat and figured you would stick to that for a good while, then I'd say go for it. But if you're going to buy piecemeal or mix and match later on, then I'd say choose based on the sound and value, and forget about balanced.

My 2c, and it's worth what you paid for it

JohnR

[JohnR]

That takes care of my first question and could be a perfect segue into another question, integrated or separates?

Most people here will probably recommend separates and your budget will easily accomodate it. The extra flexibility is worth the cost IMO.

[Kishore]

The questions.

1.  Selecting system components and system matching, how much consideration should one give to choosing an amp and pre-amp that have both balanced and unbalanced connections?  I have read that balanced can sound better but I am sure that one cannot assume that a balanced system will necessarily sound better.

Still, I am starting with an almost clean sheet of paper, and while I will try and audition several types of equipment where I can to see what sounds best to me given my speaker choice and room acoustics, I'd like to know if YOU could start completely over again, would you give any weight at all to whether or not the amp/pre-amp had any balanced connections?  I will want to at least try tubes somewhere in the system, if that makes a difference.

Thanks,
--Michael

Don't get hung up on balanced connections/cables unless you have a lengthy cable requirement (over several ft), OR equipment you use 'prefers' use of XLR outputs (i.e. they have better implementation internally for XLR/balanced usually as John alluded this is not the case).  Typically for home use where equipment is located near by (within 5-6 ft), I don't think you need to worry.

So my advice- is not to use XLR/balanced connectivity as a pre-requisite for choosing equipment.

Concerning new equipment- most of the manufacturer circles here on AC offer great value for money. Ultimately it is your ears and your listening preferences. Enjoy the hunt and pick your poison

If you start with a $$ range, you can narrow it to a handful of choices. Also do you have room treatments aa- the room is da biggest contributor to your listening experience and a small tweak could be as good as buying a $5K new box.

Cheers,
Kishore

[Thebiker]

Welcome to AC
Nice choice of speakers.  I have heard the Montana XP at a local shop with Quicksilver monoblocks.  Great sound, dynamics and soundstage.  The preamp was also Quicksilver.  These amps are made with loving care, all point to point wiring and beautifully finished.  The Quicksilvers would also be well within your budget with $ left over for a good cdp/dac.

The Mahi monoblocks and Shrimp would also be a nice choice, especially if the price is right.  I do like Manley gear and have had great service from my Stingray.

Good luck and happy shopping

[dave_c]

I think JohnR made a great point.  Using balanced connections will not necessarily gain you anything.  However, if you do end up with components which have completely balanced dual differential circuits (not just connections) it makes sense to use the balanced connections in that case.  I would also venture to say that if the majority of the components you have selected are fully balanced try to get them all balanced.  For instance if you have a balanced CD player (Ayre CX-7e) and Amp (Pass X-150) why not get a balanced Pre (BAT VK-51se) to round it out?   Again, don't get balanced for the sake of it, but don't shun it if you have it.

Just remember, balanced connections do not mean balanced circuitry.

BTW - Most tube gear is Single ended anyway.  I think BAT being the most obvious balanced tube gear.

[TONEPUB]

The one place that I have noticed a major difference with a balanced connection
is the phono input.  If you can find a phono stage that meets your budget, but
also offers a balanced input, you can definitely eliminate a little noise here, as
your phono cartridge is a true balanced device.

[finsup]

Well, after a really long hiatus in attempting to build my system and asking for your help, I am finally back to trying to do this right.  First of all, thanks to those of you who responded.  I am taking your advice and trying to concentrate on the big things and not worry the small details for now.  So -- hasta la vista balanced connections...

I mentioned before that I had Klipsch Forte speakers.  I bought those back in '87 when I was living in Germany along with a Pioneer amp/pre-amp and laser disc player. Pretty simple set-up.  Didn't know anything (and really still don't) about audio.  I just hooked it together and played movies and CDs.  Most of you are probably cringing right now but I had not heard any other system and so for the next 18 years, that is pretty much how it has been.

Now the Pioneer amp has RCA inputs on the back.  I picked up a pre-pro (Acurus ACT 3) not too long ago where I ran the Right/Left front outputs to the Pioneer.  I am going to swap out the Pioneer with another amp that has a line level input.  Hmmm, no Right/Left inputs.  I've looked on the back of the Acurus and I can't see anything that corresponds to a line level output.  I am missing something pretty basic.  How do I figure this out?

Thank you.

[MaxCast]

Those RCA's are line level.  You should be able to hook the new amp just like the Pioneer.
What kind of new amp do you have?

[lonewolfny42]

I think its all straightened out now....got a PM from finsup.

His new amp....Butler 5150....

finsup....If you run into anymore problems....just post.

[finsup]

Those RCA's are line level.  You should be able to hook the new amp just like the Pioneer.
What kind of new amp do you have?

Sometimes the obvious is just too painful for me.    Thanks for setting me straight.  I guess I was just confused because the old Pioneer amp had a CD Line Direct Input and I was thinking (not too clearly) that these were also direct inputs for sources.

OK -- before I answer your question about the new amp (and maybe I'll try my hand at writing a review but my room really is terrible when it comes to acoustics so it would be really unfair to the amp for me to write anything about it since I'll be hearing my room more than the amp), if one is going to introduce more than one new component, how do you all do it?  One at a time just so you can hear what the new component is doing?  How long before introducing the second new component?
--Michael

OK -- Lonewolf let the cat out of the bag -- it is a Butler 5150.  But for now, I am listening to it in Stereo.