Treat entire corner, or Traps + Tri-Traps

DTB300 · « **on:** 16 Dec 2006, 05:39 pm »

In the topic on Diffusors there is a picture of Zybar's room:

What is the benefit, detriments, or change by using the Tri-Trap up in the corner, instead of covering the entire corner with the traps? I have been debating whether to cover entire corners in my room with traps or doing something like Zybar. But, not sure of the differences between using traps only or traps and tri-traps.

Dan

warnerwh · « **Reply #1 on:** 16 Dec 2006, 05:48 pm »

When it comes to bass traps the more coverage the better. That's what Ethan told me and I'm sure that's right.

Btw I like your rig. Very nicely done and it's nice to see someone who realizes how much better your system sounds with quality room treatment and traps.

tomjtx · « **Reply #2 on:** 16 Dec 2006, 05:59 pm »

IMHO and the experience in my room , the tri-corners are the most important treatment you can do, followed by the wall corners (as in the photo) and, finally, the corner where the ceiling meets the wall at the middle of each wall.

I have EighthNerve Adapt triangles in 4 tri-corners, response pillows in 2 alcove tri-corners, Response seams on the wall/ceiling corners.
I have ASC tube traps in all wall corners with roomtune free standers on top of the tube traps.
The system sounds pretty good now.
If I could only keep 1 type of treatment it would be the Adapt Triangles for the tri-corners.
If your on a tight budget try the 8th Nerve response products, highly effective and cheap. The Adapt line looks and sounds better and is still not too expensive. The 8th nerve stuff is smaller and has more WAF, esp. the Adapt line.

Both Real Traps and GIK make excellent product as well. Compare them to Adapt product for looks and quality. The Response line has a budget look and I will eventually go all Adapt or add some other brand. The Response line works very well aurally but looks pretty ugly.
The Adapts lok cool and look professional like GIK and RealTraps.

srlaudio · « **Reply #3 on:** 16 Dec 2006, 07:03 pm »

The importance of diffusion cannot be understated. The top audio control rooms in the world have adopted a "reversal" of the LEDE concept. The diffusion is placed on the front wall, and at early reflection points. Please direct some questions at us if you need more clarification....

Allen Rumbaugh

DTB300 · « **Reply #4 on:** 16 Dec 2006, 08:17 pm »

Quote from: warnerwh on 16 Dec 2006, 05:48 pm

Btw I like your rig. Very nicely done and it's nice to see someone who realizes how much better your system sounds with quality room treatment and traps.

Not my rig, it is Zybar...I am using the photo as a reference point to my question.

Dan

DTB300 · « **Reply #5 on:** 16 Dec 2006, 08:26 pm »

Quote from: tomjtx on 16 Dec 2006, 05:59 pm

IMHO and the experience in my room , the tri-corners are the most important treatment you can do, followed by the wall corners (as in the photo) and, finally, the corner where the ceiling meets the wall at the middle of each wall.

I have read about the Tri-Corner as one of the most important.

But the question is: If a Tri-Corner Trap (like in the photo above in Zybar's room) is better than a GIK 244, or a Real Traps Mondo Traps that go from the floor up or from the ceiling down covering the tri-corner?

Quote

Both Real Traps and GIK make excellent product as well. Compare them to Adapt product for looks and quality. The Response line has a budget look and I will eventually go all Adapt or add some other brand. The Response line works very well aurally but looks pretty ugly.
The Adapts lok cool and look professional like GIK and RealTraps.

mfsoa · « **Reply #6 on:** 16 Dec 2006, 10:43 pm »

My guess is that given the same material, the performance in the corner would be similar whether you use a triangle or go floor-to-ceiling with a rectangular panel. Overall bass trapping should be better with the latter.

But, if I may put words into 8th Nerve's mouth, they would caution that their product, being largely reflective in front, will not work in the same manner as a more absorptive panel in the same position. So I think that some mfgs would think that there are benefits to NOT going floor-to-ceiling with something too absorptive.

bpape · « **Reply #7 on:** 17 Dec 2006, 01:30 am »

Tri corners deal with all 3 axis of the room. If you do solid chunks floor to ceiling in the vertical corners, you get BOTH the floor and ceiling tri-corner as part of the deal.

The Tri-Corner absorbers are nice for those who can't deal with the entire corner.

Bryan

zybar · « **Reply #8 on:** 17 Dec 2006, 02:02 pm »

Dan,

Ethan is way more qualified to answer your question than I am, but here a few thoughts on why my room looks the way it does:

1. I started out with the Minitraps when that is all Ethan had. I bought as many as I could afford at the time, and bought more as funds allowed.

2. I originally had the little tri-corner products from Eighth Nerve and Echo Busters, but when Realtraps came out with their tri-corner, I tried it and thought it improved my sound more than the other products so they stayed.

George

DTB300 · « **Reply #9 on:** 17 Dec 2006, 02:35 pm »

Quote from: zybar on 17 Dec 2006, 02:02 pm

Ethan is way more qualified to answer your question than I am, but here a few thoughts on why my room looks the way it does:

2. I originally had the little tri-corner products from Eighth Nerve and Echo Busters, but when Realtraps came out with their tri-corner, I tried it and thought it improved my sound more than the other products so they stayed.

Did you ever have the panels straddling the corners from floor to ceiling, or compare a panel up in the corner to the triangle?

I do realize some of this is trial and error for most of us. But like you, I am glad people like Ethan, Glen, and Bryan are around to assist.

Dan

Ethan Winer · « **Reply #10 on:** 17 Dec 2006, 03:33 pm »

Dan,

> What is the benefit, detriments, or change by using the Tri-Trap up in the corner, instead of covering the entire corner with the traps? <

First, just to clarify, we call our triangle shaped bass trap a Tri-Corner trap.

When cost is not a factor, the best way to treat a corner fully with RealTraps products is a MondoTrap straddling the corner, about halfway up between the floor and ceiling, and Tri-Corner traps above and below. The reason this is better - but again, when using RealTraps products - is it gives the most broadband absorption.

The front surface of MondoTraps and Tri-Corners (and MiniTraps) have a membrane that increases their absorption at low frequencies. But the membrane also makes them semi-reflective at mid and high frequencies. So by allowing a gap between the top and bottom of the MondoTrap and the Tri-Corner traps above and below, mids and highs can get to the rear of the panel where they too are absorbed. So you get the best of both - a lot of bass absorption, and absorption at mid and high frequencies too.

Absorption over the full range is important especially in the front part of the room, in the vicinity of the loudspeakers, to reduce the "chatter" and excess ambience that typically accumulates there. In the rear of a room absorbing mids and highs too is not as critical because by then the ambience and reflections are no longer "near." Indeed, this is why diffusion is popular in the rear of a room, especially in a larger room like George's.

--Ethan

srlaudio · « **Reply #11 on:** 17 Dec 2006, 09:18 pm »

I respect Ethan's work,

however you must consider recent "state of the art" design in control rooms.. An example can be found at www.blackbirdstudio.com look at "Studio C", George Massenburg's new surround sound studio and control room. This can certainly be viewed as a "flare over the bow". If you study the layouts on our website's gallery section, you will see that we use diffusion in the front as well as side, AND back walls. The comments by the engineers using these rooms speaks for itself.

zybar · « **Reply #12 on:** 17 Dec 2006, 10:36 pm »

I am using Ethan's diffusors in the front AND the back of the room to great effect.

I know I shouldn't be, but I am surprised at how big a difference the three diffusors are making.

Here is the thread for the diffusors:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=32412.0

George

srlaudio · « **Reply #13 on:** 18 Dec 2006, 12:11 am »

Why do you think you "shouldn't be"? One thing that isn't clear to me on Ethan's units is the fiberglass on the rear. Are the wells closed, with the fiberglass behind? We do not use fiberglass unfaced in any direction. The emission of fibers into the air you breathe is definitely a problem. The lung association has studies on that. I am glad you are enjoying the sound of diffusion..It is very hard to describe to people, but when they hear it, they always smile!

zybar · « **Reply #14 on:** 18 Dec 2006, 12:21 am »

Quote from: srlaudio on 18 Dec 2006, 12:11 am

Why do you think you "shouldn't be"? One thing that isn't clear to me on Ethan's units is the fiberglass on the rear. Are the wells closed, with the fiberglass behind? We do not use fiberglass unfaced in any direction. The emission of fibers into the air you breathe is definitely a problem. The lung association has studies on that. I am glad you are enjoying the sound of diffusion..It is very hard to describe to people, but when they hear it, they always smile!

There is no exposed fiberglass and no worries on any health issues.

Ethan's products are first class in construction, safety, and performance!!

George

srlaudio · « **Reply #15 on:** 18 Dec 2006, 02:25 am »

I wasn't implying that there was a problem with Ethan's products......That is great to hear. I do know that I have seen products from OTHER manufacturers that do not meet this criteria. For example, covering fiberglass panels with acoustically transparent cloth directly over the fiberglass inherently leaves a path for fibers to escape. There is something about the compression of the fiberglass into a rigid panel that is akin to a spring. It will want to expand. When sound vibrations strike it, some fibers "let go". It appears as a fine dust in the room. THAT is a problem........and a reason we do not use fiberglass at all.

Glenn K · « **Reply #16 on:** 18 Dec 2006, 08:46 pm »

Quote from: Ethan Winer on 17 Dec 2006, 03:33 pm

Dan,

> What is the benefit, detriments, or change by using the Tri-Trap up in the corner, instead of covering the entire corner with the traps? <

First, just to clarify, we call our triangle shaped bass trap a Tri-Corner trap.

--Ethan

I have to laugh at loud Ethan. Really I can not believe it took that long for someone to call it that.

Glenn

DTB300 · « **Reply #17 on:** 18 Dec 2006, 11:56 pm »

Quote from: Ethan Winer on 17 Dec 2006, 03:33 pm

First, just to clarify, we call our triangle shaped bass trap a Tri-Corner trap.

Sorry about that.

I guess from talking about the "Tri-Corner" for treatment, I did not want to confuse with talking about something to treat it. Should have thought about Tri-Corner and Tri-Corner Trap

Quote from: Ethan Winer

So by allowing a gap between the top and bottom of the MondoTrap and the Tri-Corner traps above and below, mids and highs can get to the rear of the panel where they too are absorbed.

So does the sound reflect off the Tri-Corner Trap up/down behind the Mondo with this type of setup?

If a Mondo was straddling the ENTIRE corner, the you would not get as much mid and high absorption?

I am just trying to understand the reasoning for this type of setup?

BTW, thanks for the info on your products and their best and proper use.

Dan

Ethan Winer · « **Reply #18 on:** 19 Dec 2006, 04:21 pm »

Dan,

> I guess from talking about the "Tri-Corner" for treatment <

I know, and I clarified only because someone else here that we all know and love sells a products called a Tri-Trap.

> So does the sound reflect off the Tri-Corner Trap up/down behind the Mondo with this type of setup? <

Yes, even if the ceiling is low and the points of the triangle tuck behind the MondoTrap a little, there's still enough of an opening for sound to get behind the MondoTrap.

> If a Mondo was straddling the ENTIRE corner, the you would not get as much mid and high absorption? <

Yes, assuming you mean two MondoTraps or two MiniTraps were stacked to exactly fill the entire corner from floor to ceiling. In that case there'd be less mid/high frequency absorption. So this is why I recommend a bit of "air" above and below.

--Ethan

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #19 on:** 13 Jan 2007, 12:22 pm »

Quote from: srlaudio on 18 Dec 2006, 02:25 am

There is something about the compression of the fiberglass into a rigid panel that is akin to a spring. It will want to expand. When sound vibrations strike it, some fibers "let go". It appears as a fine dust in the room. THAT is a problem........and a reason we do not use fiberglass at all.

I wonder if that's a reason why Decware does not sell thee corner bass trap blueprints anymore...