[TheChairGuy]

I've followed this one with waning / yawning interest.  Remarkably, this burn-in debate stayed civil.....it had some twists and turns along the way but never got ugly.  Way to go, guys 

But, does it merit any further bandwidth to continue it? 

PhilNYC (damn you  ), you didn't really get your answers....but we got some healthy debate.  Beyond that - can we just lock the topic now?  It really doesn't seem to be getting to the point (if there is one, or there is one to prove or disprove).  Phil, can I just lock it down so it doesn't rear up again in the future by some unsuspecting AC member digging thru the archives at some point in the future?

Do I have some other votes from the field (other than fellow moderators) to lock it down?  Many of the mods have expressed their feigning interest in this topic....and would seem to want to lock it down - if only because it's a royal pain to continue monitoring it for civility 

John / TCG - Moderator / Audio Central

[sts9fan]

Do I have some other votes from the field (other than fellow moderators) to lock it down?  Many of the mods have expressed their feigning interest in this topic....and would seem to want to lock it down - if only because it's a royal pain to continue monitoring it for civility 

Your considering locking it because you are not interested in it? I did not know threads have to be interesting to mods to stay active. Due to it growth in a short amount of time it seems to intrest many people on the board.

[dwk]

...and still no one has thus far reported ever having measured the electrical specs of a new component's outputs and then taken the same measurements 500 hours later. So, while many poke fun at what others claim to hear, they haven't themselves tested the effect in question to scientifically put the notion to rest.

Even limited to the context of this threac, a single set of measurements would be both technically meaningless and probably ignored.

It is impossible to *prove* a negative assertion with a single example. Thus, even if there was a measurement proving that a single specific unit measured *exactly* the same in all parameters, it doesn't help us generalize to the larger question. That's the technical aspect. The non-technical aspect is that the 'believer' crowd would basically say 'so what, they probably didn't measure it correctly', which would make it a wasted effort.

Conversely though, ONE SINGLE example of a unit which measures sufficiently differently to be audible pre/post break-in is enough to establish that the effect is real in certain circumstances. Yet no such instances seem to exist.

Why?

Why indeed.

The tone of your question suggests that the 'objective' manufacturers are hiding something.  If you're looking for conspiracies, consider this. High-end manufactures and marketers make FAR more money selling to 'believers' based on non-verifiable claims and contentions than the engineers make selling based on objective facts. If there's a vested interest at play, I just don't see it being on the 'objective' side of this debate.

On one level, this is fine to a degree - nobody has a 'duty' to buy 'objectively perfect' gear, and the point of a leisure-time pursuit is basically to make us happy. So, buying gear that makes you happy is perfectly reasonable. The problems that I see are
a) it frequently doesn't work. folks end up on the treadmill of endless changes chasing something they'll never find, and there's no objective method to the pursuit. Of course, maybe this is just another way to 'stay involved' with the hobby, and may be the real point.
b) evangalism. Any time someone sallies forth with the 'one truth', things get ugly.
c) pseudo-science. Rarely is it the case that people are content to say 'I like it' and leave it at that. There almost always seems to be a need to explain or justify not why they prefer it, but why it's *better*. These explanations are usually not correct. Heck, they're usually not even wrong  
d) ego. This is probably the one that actually bothers me most, where folks use the 'my hearing is clearly so much better than yours' card to jack themselves up and/or dismiss/insult others. (although this one is much less prevalent here on AC than most forums, thankfully).  

Ultimately, I think that the mystery and allure of the unknown parameters of our perceptions is a large part of the draw of the hobby. It gives folks a chance to explore uncharted ground and come up with their own perspective on one aspect of the world. Taken this way, there may not be  any interest in determining whether there is any reality to it or not. The 'objective' world is just way less interesting, and where's the fun in that? Looked at this way, it's hard to get too upset, as long as the evangalism stays in check.

I'll concur with the observation that this has stayed pretty civil. Certainly far more civil than any other similar debate I've seen.

[woodsyi]

Keep it open to see who has the last say.  I am patting myself in the back for staying out of this one.  I keep checking briefly just to see who is still in it.  Has anything new that hasn't been said before been said in this thread? 

[Wind Chaser]

Your considering locking it because you are not interested in it? I did not know threads have to be interesting to mods to stay active. Due to it growth in a short amount of time it seems to intrest many people on the board.

Excellent point!

However, I am convinced that this kind of debate can rage on indefinitely.  When a person is holds fast their particular beliefs, no amount intellectual debate is going change their POV.  It's much like the evolution vs creation.  Anyone debating that subject has already made up their mind about what they believe and nobody convinces anyone of otherwise.

That aside if people have an interest in this subject and they are conducting themselves in a civil manner, it should be allowed to continue.  And if the moderator has lost interest in doing his job, then he should resign and turn the keys over to someone else.

John.

[miklorsmith]

Disproving burn-in is akin to disproving the existence of God.  The scientific group will use whatever methodical means available and the other side will say they hear/know what they hear/know, whatever "proof" is given.

Nevertheless, 24 pages without real blood is most impressive.  We're coming of age, gentlemen.

[jneutron]

Your considering locking it because you are not interested in it? I did not know threads have to be interesting to mods to stay active. Due to it growth in a short amount of time it seems to intrest many people on the board.

I concur.  What a very strange reason to lock an amazingly active thread.

That aside if people have an interest in this subject and they are conducting themselves in a civil manner, it should be allowed to continue.

Yup.

 

And if the moderator has lost interest in doing his job, then he should resign and turn the keys over to someone else.

I do not think that a fair statement.  Historically, topics such as this one have been the biggest flamers and as a consequence, the biggest time consumers for the mods.., so I can understand a moderation's trepidation.  I do not agree with the moderator, but can understand..

Cheers, John

[JohnR]

And if the moderator has lost interest in doing his job, then he should resign and turn the keys over to someone else.

Hah hah, that's funny. Are you volunteering??

[sts9fan]

no its a fair statement. There are strict rules here and none are being broken. It seems silly to stop an active thread just because it is not really informative. Do all threads have to have an for seeable outcome to be allowed to continue?

P.S. I still think MOST of the brun-in you hear is your brain F'in with you and that manufacturers use it to use up the time of their return policy...

[jneutron]

no its a fair statement. There are strict rules here and none are being broken. It seems silly to stop an active thread just because it is not really informative. Do all threads have to have an for seeable outcome to be allowed to continue?

As I said, I agree with continuation of the thread, and disagree with the reasons given by the moderator.  I consider it unfair to imply the moderator is disinterested and therefore lazy enough to lock the thread.  I understand the moderator's trepidation consistent with the topic.

I still think MOST of the brun-in you hear is your brain F'in with you and that manufacturers use it to use up the time of their return policy...

I consider equipment burn in as a real entity, while audibility of such burn in, I would consider suspect without affirmation. (note:  after viewing raj's post below, I must elaborate...contextually, "equipment" I use to refer to electronics.  Speaker driver burn-in is easily verifiable, and some raw driver manu's recommend flexure burn-in to settle the driver parameters.)

As for wire burnin, the explanations tendered do not float my boat.  I am sufficiently capable of making up things, I do not need others to make things up then assert that those who do not believe such hogwash are "closed minded".

Cheers, John

[rajacat]

no its a fair statement. There are strict rules here and none are being broken. It seems silly to stop an active thread just because it is not really informative. Do all threads have to have an for seeable outcome to be allowed to continue?

P.S. I still think MOST of the brun-in you hear is your brain F'in with you and that manufacturers use it to use up the time of their return policy...

Read this.


http://www.gr-research.com/burnin.shtm

[Wind Chaser]

I consider it unfair to imply the moderator is disinterested and therefore lazy enough to lock the thread.  I understand the moderator's trepidation consistent with the topic.

Reality is any topic at anytime can flair out of control.  Moderators should not be able to pick and choose what gets discussed nor how long a discussion carries on when everyone behaving nice and the rules are not violated.

Also I sense that JohnR is perhaps in need of more or new volunteers to moderate.  While I don’t deem myself as a good candidate, perhaps there are others who might be more qualified?

As for burn, I have experienced it.  Anyone who has ever bought a Decware Zen has no doubt experienced it too.  Those amps are rather schizophrenic for the first 50 hours. 

John

[Dan Banquer]

...and still no one has thus far reported ever having measured the electrical specs of a new component's outputs and then taken the same measurements 500 hours later. So, while many poke fun at what others claim to hear, they haven't themselves tested the effect in question to scientifically put the notion to rest.

Why?

One would expect the engineer/technician/designer is best equipped to conduct such tests.

This is totally and utterly false. There have been lots of tests over the years to show that well designed solid state units do NOT change after 500 hours of use. Nelson Pass years ago measured an Ortofon unit for the pressing of records and found that after 20 years the unit was still meeting spec. I have tested my units after 5 or 10 years out in the field and have found nothing other than the electrolytic caps aging, but the units are still meeting spec.
After seeing a post like this one I really think posters need to do a bit of research before they make these wild unsubstantiated claims. 
             d.b.
           

Mr. Banquer, my statement quoted above was specific to this thread, not to the audio discipline in general, and it is absolutely true as anyone who takes the time to read this thread will see. No participant in this thread has mentioned ever having taken measurements at the outputs of a new device and then at specific interval during the first 500 hours and then comparing the results to see if any changes have occurred...not just if the measurements are within spec. I requested pages and pages ago in this thread for someone to provide a link or a reference to a study. I'd like to read one. Since you are aware of such a study (or more than one) your assistance locating an article would be appreciated.

Daygloworange's link to the GR Research article was what I had in mind...
http://www.gr-research.com/burn in.shtm
...although this was specific to loudspeakers. I believe fewer audiophiles question the effects of break-in/burn-in on loudspeakers than they question the effects of burn-in on electronics.

I'm not so much interested in meeting spec as I am in any changes that occur, no matter how small, during the commonly recognized burn-in period of 500 hours. In other words, if a new device measures better than spec, then it's reasonable to assume that it might still measure up to spec hundreds or thousands of hours later, and yet the measurements would not be exactly the same. Any deviation in the measurements might offer some proof of the possibility of a change in sonics during the burn-in period for those with hearing sensitive enough to detect it.

Perhaps I wasn't clear earlier and for that I apologize.

Please provide a link, title...or any resource to one of the studies you mention. Thank you.

As I posted earlier I fully expect posters to do some small research on line. It is readily apparent that posters here know how to use a computer and I don't think it's too much to ask for posters to use Google for a search. I Googled Transistor lifetime expectancy and within 5 minutes I got something appropriate to this thread. I got this link: http://www.semelab.co.uk/pdf/misc/documents/q_and_r_in_hi_rel.pdf

Since the rest of the world has already established that when it comes to discreet transistors and even op amps, the life expectancy is unknown at the present time I will no longer respond to any post that requires me to justify this. Nor will I google readily accessible information because the poster is apparently to lazy to do so on his or her own time.

Now that we have that firmly established, I will explore briefly (other than human error) why you think you may have burn in over 500 hours.
1. Consumer Audio is known for not having any grounding standard. Poor grounding practices so common in consumer audio lead to high susceptibility for interference. This interference which may at different levels during your 500 hours of listening time may well be influencing your train of thought.
2. If you have unit(s) that do not use negative feedback than than your units will have DC stability issues. Without DC stability transistor biasing will vary and so will the distortion. This fact that negative feedback enhances DC stability has long been known but suppressed by those who either ignorant or possibly think that poor DC stability is more "musical" whatever that means.
        d.b.

P.S. Here's another link that I think is appropriate: http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/Index.cfm?AD=1&ArticleID=4127

[rajacat]

What does it mean if two amps, with identical specs. but built by different manufacturers, have easily perceived differences in sound quality?

Raja

[Dan Banquer]

Since you have not been polite enough to answer my previous questions pertaining to what you have read about audio basics I see no further need to respond to your post.
Have a nice day.
         d.b.

[Kevin Haskins]

You guys have far more stamina than I.   

[Dan Banquer]

You guys have far more stamina than I.   

It's a full moon Kevin.
              d.b.

[TheChairGuy]

Sts9Fan/jneutron

Most of the Moderators have been at AC for some time.......longer than you both (not all, but many) and most of it's contributing members.  As such, we tend to see these kind of posts (regarding burn-in, or differences in cable designs,  or religion, or politics, etc, etc.) over and over again...without coming to any answers or exploring any new ground.

The vast majority of these become rowdy - this one has not - congratulations to all for that 

It is not out of laziness that I propose a lockdown, it is to likely avoid the hysteria and theatrics that will in all likelihood become of this topic. 

We moderators are often charged with heavy handedness; alternating with too much laissez-faire attitude - we walk the fine line of fairness at all times.....there are few objective guidelines on many things here.  We hope only that most recognize that this is a gathering place for fellow audiophiles - who have a right to express their beliefs reasonably freely.  The fact is that topics exactly as this one have nearly all trailed off into arguments and fights in the past.

We as moderators need to spend an inordinate amount of our (fully volunteer) time to monitor this fast moving discussion with 25 pages in 3 days....knowing full well there is no hope for substative and near universal agreement or 'answers' to the question originally posed...regarding 'burn-in'.  As this discussion is not going anywhere (based on many previous topics on the same thing), is likely to erupt into a spillover of emotions - I've asked to see how many are in favor of locking this topic down.

I think it should be locked down, not borne from any laziness on my part or other Moderators, but because there is nothing worthwhile being gained from it's continued existence. And, with 98% certainty based on history, erupt into something less-than-civil in the future.

Sts9Fan/jneutron, you have the right to disagree (in fact, it's healthy), but I have an equal right to disagree with you.  I'm a reasonably fair and impartial guy by nature - if I'm actually advocating a lock down, it's not due to any inherent laziness.

John / TCG

[shep]

do it! it's gotten sloppy and dreary.

[MaxCast]

Just think, in 100 more hours everyones gear will be burned in.  Just hope you like it when it is otherwise you may have to freeze it or gut it out.

Oh yeah, and here's one  for civility.   



Burn in  -  the phenomena that can't be stopped.