[Larry]

I had the opportunity to audition the "real" 89259 cross couple cables of John R. The consensus is that the 8 strand solid core, teflon coated CAT 5 is better than the "real" 89259.

I believe the number of strands could make differences (I built them with diffrerent strands), which is the part of cable geometry that make currents, or electromegnetic fields, interact differently. I don't know what is the best way for music to travel in a cables but they do travel very differently with different cable geometries.

My observation on these cables are both on non-teflon cables, comparing the geometry of them.

I did not compare non-teflon and teflon cables. But I do like to compare 89259 coax to a air spaced sat coax, as both of them have something I like and don't like. I may like the telfon of 89259, as so many people speak high of it. But I don't like the multistrand of 89259. The sat coax is a solid core with both copper braid and foil as shielding. I use one single coax (non-cross connected) for tweeter bi-wiring, as I think 1) the tweeter does not need high currents and the core of the coax is much larger than tweeter wires; I don't think bass and tweeter should use exactly the same cables in bi-wiring; 2) the high frequence signal does not use the non-teflon sheath as the dielectric but semi-air in single run of non-cross connected coax for the tweeter, (air is the best dielectric, better than teflon.) I think the effects of dielectric should mainly on high frequences that's why I did not worry too much on the bass cable having non-teflon as dielectric. But I am always looking for some areas I can improve in my system. That's why I like to hear people's comments on my system, in particular weak areas so that I can improve on. If I can pick up the differences with teflon and non-teflon cables in a blind test , I will be more happy to know an area I can easily improve and upgrade my cables.

By the way, I recently upgraded my GK-1 with Hovland capacitors and Vishy resistors on some positions, and also changed the tube to 6992. Both give me positive results. So I am very happy with GK-1 in my system at this stage. But I can hear a little bit harshness sometime still and I am suspecting that my DIO is the responsible. So I am currently looking for a Bolder modded DIO to compare. If the comparison convinces me the Bolder modded DIO is better without the harshness, I then will do somthing here. If not, I got to look into other part, maybe transport? Not sure at this stage.

[Larry]

I sent you 8 metres of CAT5E about four days back in a padded bag.

Have you received it?

Yes, I just received it today. That's the cable you sent to me to do an experiment on a long interconnect driven by GK-1. I will conduct that experiment but not very soon as I think get the twisted pair out of the sheath from an 8m cable is not as easy as get it out of that from 1 or 2 meters cables.

My question was why you says sorry for having sent it and how this relates to the discussion on CAT5e as speaker cables and how my previous comments on speaker cables relates to your sending of the cable for another experiement.

[AKSA]

Larry,

It's obvious!

You don't like it much!  

Cheers,

Hugh

[Larry]

It's obvious!

You don't like it much!  

Did I say that? No, I didn't. I have said how I observed it when it is used as speaker cables, comparing to cross-connected coax cables, and what are the differences. As I prefer accuracy, I then use cross-connected coax as speaker cables in my system.

I did use them for internal signal wiring, as I told you.

But I don't use them as interconnects though I like its twisted pair geometry so that I used a shilded cable of twisted pair for my interconnects, I said this on some occasions. Before you sent the CAT5e, I also said I won't use unshileded CAT5e for my interconnects, in particular as long as 10m, but I can try the effects of long interconnects driven by GK-1. I think you should know all this before my previous post.

Do all these mean that I don't like CAT5 much? Not obvious to me.  

[Jens]

Hugh:
Thanks for the offer. If Peter is coming to Denmark anyway (and so it seems), let's spare the 5 metres for someone who cannot get it all. I would probably also need 10 metres, so I would have to get some more anyway.

Everyone:
Again, thank you very much for an enlightening discussion with many good inputs. I'll let my ears and my system decide what is best. It will take some time, but I'll get there!  

Must dash - have to grap a taxi to the airport in half an hour, going to Amsterdam for a couple of days!

Cheers,

Jens

[EchiDna]

Larry,

It's obvious!

You don't like it much!  

Cheers,

Hugh

[sarcasm]
I HATE the stuff WAAAAY more than Larry!

Does that qualify me for a 15m roll sent in the mail??  
[/sarcasm]

[Malcolm Fear]

Hi Larry

>>I think get the twisted pair out of the sheath
There is a silk rip cord. Once you find that and split the outer case, using the rip cord (may have to clamp the other end to stop the rip cord pulling through on such a short run), the 4 twisted pair just fall out.

regards

[E TYPE PHIL]

Larry

Could you tell us more regarding the upgrades you did to your GK1.
What are your impressions of the changes these mods made?


Also given your penchant for exacting comparisons would you be prepared to run a repeat A:B test similar to the one your conducted at the AKSAFEST ? (assuming Malcolm and his good wife are agreeable to participate).

Phil.

[Larry]

>>I think get the twisted pair out of the sheath
There is a silk rip cord. Once you find that and split the outer case, using the rip cord (may have to clamp the other end to stop the rip cord pulling through on such a short run), the 4 twisted pair just fall out.

Thank you for the tip. It worked perfectly.

Now I have soldered plugs and I am going to listen to it tonight.

[Larry]

Larry

Could you tell us more regarding the upgrades you did to your GK1.
What are your impressions of the changes these mods made?


Also given your penchant for exacting comparisons would you be prepared to run a repeat A:B test similar to the one your conducted at the AKSAFEST ? (assuming Malcolm and his good wife are agreeable to participate).

Phil.

I replied you in a new thread. GK-1 upgrades

[Seano]

if you can't manage Cat5 with teflon.............then think laterally. I've been sitting back watching this debate with interest and amusement - interest cause it's interesting and amusement cause it's so esoteric that it's almost anal. But I can hold my breath no longer..................

Cause I've been thinking (potentially a dangerous thing too)

There is an alternative to the use of teflon coated Cat5 for speaker cable or even interconnects. Naturally it will be a tad more fiddly and possibly a tad more pricey but as a concept it's a good place to start.

First you need to aqcuire any old Cat5 cable. It can be coated in teflon, PVC, PFP, PRG or even SOB whatever. Doesn't matter. Cause you are going to strip the coating off.  

Next bit is where it gets technical and the risk of me getting this wrong increases. But what the hell. I'm sure you'll all tell me if I am. Now that you have stripped all the gunk of the solid copper wire braid or twist four strands together - you choose how based on personal/practical preference(and if someone tells me there's a sonic difference between braiding and twisting that they can hear thenthey are lying or they should get out more). Once you have your new beaut fancy twisted/braided wire then comes the really neat and all to easy bit.

Take yourself down to your local laboratory supply company (such as John Morris or Crown Scientific, both in Oz and both on the web or in the US, Cole-Parmer) and purchase the required length of teflon or FEP tubing - it is available in a number of different inside and outside diameters, wall thickness and soft or hard consistency. Cheaper versions are even available that are teflon lined with a polypropolene outer. My guess is you'll need something with a internal diameter of 2 to 3mm (roughly 1/16th to 1/8th of an inch).  The price I have from the Cole-Palmer catalogue for PTFE tubing Cat no. A-06407-15 with an ID of 2.48mm, an OD of 4mm and wall thickness of 0.76mm is US$14.75 per 12 foot pack. A similar sized imperial version is US$12.50 per 12 foot pack.  This version is white but colour coded versions are available from Cole-Parmer that may be suitable. I can get Oz dollar prices too with little effort.

So once you have your tubing then slide your you beaut braided wire inside and connect your favorite jacks/caps/bits or bobs to them and use as you like. Use teflon plumbers tape to seal up the tubing too. You now have flash harry cables that are not only finsihed in the inert and very esoteric teflon but also use air as an insulator as well.  How fancy is that!!!!

And still W-A-A-A-Y cheaper than shop bought.

And if you want to get really silly I've found a place that sells bare coated silver wire in Sydney for AU$20/m and the cotton tubing to wrap it in so if you want to get really silly you can subbie the elcheapo Cat5e wire in the concept above for the real OTT stuff.............

Wotcha think about that?

[Malcolm Fear]

Hi Shauno
 
I try to imagine stripping the pvc off 8 strands of any old CAT 5. That must be difficult for 12 foot speaker leads.
So, we strip the pvc off of our 4 strands. We then braid 4 strands together. Wait a minute. Now we just have a thick stranded cable. Not what we are trying to achieve. And how do you keep the positive separate from the negative? Or do you do this twice (4 braided strands for positive and 4 strands for negative)?

For your idea to work, you would have to strip each wire of its pvc and enclose each wire in teflon tubing, giving you 8 strands of teflon coated wire. Hey, this is the same result as purchasing teflon coated cat 5 in the first place. BTW, Hugh will sell 5 metres of teflon coated CAT 5 at  a reasonable price.

[Seano]

Like I said it was just a suggestion!

To be honest I'm still trying to come to grips with the construction concept. Such as if you already have eight twisted pairs of teflon coated Cat5 already wrapped up in a nice little bundle straight off the roll........why take it apart and put back together again?

Why is it so important (relatively speaking) to have each wire covered in teflon then braided back together to form a bundle of four which are connected at either end anyway?

And Malcolm, as for suggesting that I'd just end up with 'thick standed cable' what makes you so sure that the copper wire isn't coated anyway?(or is that just a stupid question because why do they wrap it in PVC/teflon/whatever in the first place.................)

Perhaps I'm just like everyone else on this topic............confused (very?)and just a little bored with it.  I only just managed to sufficiently get the grasp of the cross connected coax enough to build a set (based on not 89259 cause I was both cheap and unconvinced) without having to cope with this lot!!  Just so happens that I quite like those coax cables too.

Is it possible to get a 'Plain English' explanation about all this Cat5 stuff without simply leaving a link to a website that still doesn't help me comprehend? It's no wonder so many people resort to buying off the shelf stuff    

[Jens]

I was just wondering - with CAT5 cables like the Belden 1585A, where the pairs are already twisted - what is the sonic benefit of braiding the four pairs (as far as I can make out this is what some people suggest).  

Why not just peel off the outer jacket and use the the four pairs as they are, perhaps twisting them and tying them together in a few places with heat shrink or encasing them in cotton hose of some kind? (which is what a lot of people do, isn't it?)

Have anyone tried testing 'unbraided' CAT5 against 'braided', using the same type of basic cable, that is?

Also, since it would seem that there is not really consensus about whether cross-connected coax or CAT5 is the better cable - any experiences with using any of these for internal speaker wiring?  

Cheers,

Jens

[AKSA]

Jens,

I'll leave this one alone;  I really can't say.  Larry, Mal??

Cheers,

Hugh

[Malcolm Fear]

Hi Jens

>>anyone tried testing 'unbraided' CAT5 against 'braided'

This is on my list of "to dos".


>>Also, since it would seem that there is not really consensus about whether cross-connected coax or CAT5 is the better cable - any experiences with using any of these for internal speaker wiring?  

>>I think if someone prefers one type over the other, then they should use this configuration everywhere.

For speaker leads, I prefer 8 braided strands over the cross coupled co-ax. I have 8 strand inside the AKSA power amp, as my speaker leads and inside my speakers.
I am investigating the 89259 as an interconnect, Currently I am using 4 strands of CAT 5. If I end up preferring the 89259, I will use it as interconnects, inside the pre amp and inside the AKSA power amp.

regards

[Jens]

>>anyone tried testing 'unbraided' CAT5 against 'braided'

This is on my list of "to dos".


>>Also, since it would seem that there is not really consensus about whether cross-connected coax or CAT5 is the better cable - any experiences with using any of these for internal speaker wiring?  

>>I think if someone prefers one type over the other, then they should use this configuration everywhere.

For speaker leads, I prefer 8 braided strands over the cross coupled co-ax ...

Hi Mal,

Please let us know when you've done the braided/unbraided test.

I quite agree with you - in general one should use the cable one likes best - and it's probably best to use it all the way through. However, in my case with a separately amped bass section, I would probably go for the cable that gave the best results in this section, no matter what I use in the treble/mid section, which is amped by the AKSA 55N - but that's a special case.

For the speakers, I am going to start out with the cross-connected coax type, using the all-teflon insulated Belden 89259 and see how it goes. Later on, I am going to try out some CAT5. Your tests could decide: "To braid, or not to braid, that is ...." - oh, I'm getting carried away here  

I am currently using speaker cables from Tom Fletcher, teflon insulation, pure copper, several strands (not multi-strand) with a thin layer of silver (Hugh, you are not to comment on that    - I know you do not like that type of cable!), which have flogged several fairly expensive cables like Audioquest, Renaissance Audio, and Synergistic, so the coaxes and the CAT5s will be up against fair competition.

Cheers,

Jens

[bluesky]

Hi Seano, Jens, Malcolm, Hugh et al

Why am I doing this braiding thing, because it's fun!

I like reading all the comments and 'learned peoples recipes'.  That's how I am learning about the DIY side of audio and I find it fascinating and enjoyable.  I have found its a great hobby and  I am a sure that there are many out there in cyber space just like me that use the forum to learn as they go along the audio path.  

Besides I find the braiding 'good zen', very relaxing.  Also, being basically a big, clumsy galoot I marvel at actually completing something.  Ok, so I still working on the amplifier and TLP but I'll get there one day and I have just loved the journey so far.  

So keep up the commentary, I, for one, really enjoy it!

Chers, Ian

[Martin]

Well said, Ian!

Two roads diverged in a wood,
and I —
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

                                      Robert Frost
 
We are all the better for having tried.

  Martin
P.s. Good luck with the amp & TLP.

[Propstuff]

OK gang, time for me to wade in.
I decided to make some cross-connected inter-connects, but, rarely willing to let sense rule over reason, I did some "extras".
Firstly, I found some co-ax with a foamed teflon  di-electric.
Then, I stripped off the PVC jacket, and, using the existing centre conductor as a pull through, I passed a length of 0.5mm diameter solid silver wire.
Next  I took some long strips of 0.05mm pure silver foil, about 1.5 cm wide, and rolled it lengthwise around the Teflon di-electric.
To keep this in place, I slid a length of expandable braided sleeving over the top, and then clear PTFE heat-shrink. However, I didn't want the silver to tarnish, so, as I shrunk the tubing, I injected Argon welding gas from one end to expel the air.
Then I bundled two of these lengths together, and made cross-connected terminations using the solid silver wire inside clear PTFE tubing.

So, I have argon injected, fully solid silver, Teflon, cross-connected inter-connects.


Can I hear the difference between them and plain co-ax?
Hell no! But, they look cool. ;-)
Maybe I just have cloth ears. :-D

N.