What is "musicality"?

NoDiggity · « **on:** 11 Nov 2006, 01:38 am »

All,
I'm new here, first time poster. I just bought my first audiophile system, consists of:
-Krell KPS-25Sc cd player/preamplifier
-Krell FBP 350 Mcx Monoblocks
-Focal-JMlab Alto Utopia Be Loudspeakers

A old friend of mine came to visit me, he happens to be a long-time audiophile too. After listening to my setup, he said:"Your system is doing everything correctly, but something is missing, it's lacking in soul, not musical enough to me."

I'm new to this hobby. His comments made me scratch my head a little, what is "soul", what is "musicality"? And how can I get them

Dylon
Las Vegas

95bcwh · « **Reply #1 on:** 11 Nov 2006, 01:42 am »

wah..you are one rich guy!

I wish I have that kind of money to spend on my gears

I think "musicality" is not universal, it's personal preference, what is musical to you may not be musical to another pair of ears. So, don't worry about it, as long as you're happy with your system, then just enjoy the music. If you want to read more about "musicality"...read the first message of this thread:
http://www.echoloft.com/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.cgi?board=tell&action=display&num=1162891187

(it makes me laugh....)

JoshK · « **Reply #2 on:** 11 Nov 2006, 01:58 am »

First...I hate the word musicality...its a stupid word made up by audiophiles....yeah it is in the dictionary but audiophiles invented it.

Krell and JM Labs together tends to be 'hyper clinical but accurate'. Think of a doctor's office, it is super sterile but not necessarily a comfortable place to hang out. That is what he meant. It is a description when an audiophile would rather have some more distortion, but they won't admit as much.

If you were to add, say a tube preamp, in between your source and amp, you would likely add a bit of 2nd order distortion which has a 'masking' affect of noticing all the warts on the original recording. FWIW, I am not poo-poo'ing the concept. I too like the 'richness and body' such a setup gives over the super clean system. The ear is a funny thing and most recordings are pretty f'in far from perfect, so in order to enjoy the majority of them, imo, that requires some bandaids in the form of harmonic correctors (SS = typically odd harmonic weighted distortion, tubes often the opposite, though not always). The more even harmonics the more musically natural to the ear. (think odd order = dissonant, although that is a bit incorrect and generalized).

Most recording studios do not go to such extents of perfection as your setup, so your setup reveals all the warts in the recording. I personally think this is why a lower distortion system (assuming small even order harmonics added) all else being equal is usually less liked by audiophiles and secular peeps alike.

95bcwh · « **Reply #3 on:** 11 Nov 2006, 02:04 am »

Quote from: JoshK on 11 Nov 2006, 01:58 am

If you were to add, say a tube preamp, in between your source and amp, you would likely add a bit of 2nd order distortion which has a 'masking' affect of noticing all the warts on the original recording.

Josh, I read about this 2nd order distortion, what puzzles me is when I read the Bryston 4B-SST owner's manual, it says all distortion are 2nd order, but I don't find Bryston having any "masking" effect at all.. it's still a highly accurate amp to me. Perhaps there's a different between 2nd order distortion in tube and in solid state?

SET Man · « **Reply #4 on:** 11 Nov 2006, 02:08 am »

Hey!

First welcome to the AC!

Now that is an impressive list of "first audiophile system"

As for your friend comment on the "musicality" and what is it? Well, as for audio system. Beside the fact that the system have to stay faithful to the recording as much as possible. Also to me it is basically a system or set up that give you pleasure when you listening to it. A system that grab you and make you pay attention to the music itself. And a system that you find it hard to turn it off, because you want to play and listen to more musics through it!

Don't worry about your friend comment. As long as your system could keep your glued to your sweet spot or you find yourself rocking your head, tapping your foot along or leaning back, closed your eyes... relaxed and just get loss in the sound and not thinking about the system than you shouldn't worry and just enjoy it.

Since you are new to this I must say that you should keep your ear open and explore. Keep in mind that price tag doesn't mean a thing.

Go out and listen to other system... with open minded and open ears of cause. Who know? Maybe you'll find a system with even more "musicality"

Well, that's how I see it. So, enjoy the music.

Take care,
Buddy

JoshK · « **Reply #5 on:** 11 Nov 2006, 02:18 am »

Quote from: 95bcwh on 11 Nov 2006, 02:04 am

Quote from: JoshK on 11 Nov 2006, 01:58 am

If you were to add, say a tube preamp, in between your source and amp, you would likely add a bit of 2nd order distortion which has a 'masking' affect of noticing all the warts on the original recording.

Josh, I read about this 2nd order distortion, what puzzles me is when I read the Bryston 4B-SST owner's manual, it says all distortion are 2nd order, ....

Absolutely wrong....that is what spectral analyzers are for. I can't imagine it meant that. That is pretty near an idiotic statement. Waves which music is composed of can very easily have all sorts of harmonics, anyone who has studied wave equations (Partial Diff EQ from either math or physics perspectives) knows this.

If one were to take Dr. Geddes hypotheses as fact (a series of papers in AES journal) then one understands how the order of distortion makes a large affect. The statement you alluded to sounds like marketing BS from a department that is trumpeting absolute measurements, even though we now know better (scientifically).

Not to pick on Bryston, cause I haven't read that myself and I don't know if you are summarizing their premise correctly or not (whether intended or not...I assume you are well meaning and not grinding axes).

One must understand that each of our hearing responses is different then one anothers and that are ears are terrific harmonic distortion creators. Dr. G has done a lot of add empirical evidence to support ideas that were first postulated in the 30's afaik. Instruments measure different then our ears/brain measure, so if one is to try to optimize reproduced sound based on our ear/brain rather than measurements, one must make some adjustments to our measurements and Dr. G as well as some others before him have suggested some much better measures, and Dr. G has provided empirical evidence to conclude that his measure much better reflects our hearing.

If the current manufacturing market place were to adopt such measures, then there wouldn't be as much room for BS, marketing and spin. I don't think such a industry wants this that makes its living on such a thing. Call my cynical, but this seems glaringly obvious to myself.

JoshK · « **Reply #6 on:** 11 Nov 2006, 02:19 am »

Quote from: SET Man on 11 Nov 2006, 02:08 am

Hey!

First welcome to the AC!

Now that is an impressive list of "first audiophile system"

As for your friend comment on the "musicality" and what is it? Well, as for audio system. Beside the fact that the system have to stay faithful to the recording as much as possible. Also to me it is basically a system or set up that give you pleasure when you listening to it. A system that grab you and make you pay attention to the music itself. And a system that you find it hard to turn it off, because you want to play and listen to more musics through it!

Don't worry about your friend comment. As long as your system could keep your glued to your sweet spot or you find yourself rocking your head, tapping your foot along or leaning back, closed your eyes... relaxed and just get loss in the sound and not thinking about the system than you shouldn't worry and just enjoy it.

Since you are new to this I must say that you should keep your ear open and explore. Keep in mind that price tag doesn't mean a thing. Go out and listen to other system... with open minded and open ears of cause. Who know? Maybe you'll find a system with even more "musicality"

Well, that's how I see it. So, enjoy the music.

Take care,
Buddy

Sorry for my previous tangent....Buddy does a much better job of getting to the heart of your question.

95bcwh · « **Reply #7 on:** 11 Nov 2006, 02:24 am »

oh no no no...I am not picking on anything.. I have nothing but respect for Bryston, the manual writes:
"The harmonic content of the 4BSST is all even order"

Maybe I don't understand what that really means..

Quote from: JoshK on 11 Nov 2006, 02:18 am

Not to pick on Bryston, cause I haven't read that myself and I don't know if you are summarizing their premise correctly or not (whether intended or not...I assume you are well meaning and not grinding axes).

markC · « **Reply #8 on:** 11 Nov 2006, 02:35 am »

Quote from: NoDiggity on 11 Nov 2006, 01:38 am

All,
I'm new here, first time poster. I just bought my first audiophile system, consists of:
-Krell KPS-25Sc cd player/preamplifier
-Krell FBP 350 Mcx Monoblocks
-Focal-JMlab Alto Utopia Be Loudspeakers

A old friend of mine came to visit me, he happens to be a long-time audiophile too. After listening to my setup, he said:"Your system is doing everything correctly, but something is missing, it's lacking in soul, not musical enough to me."

I'm new to this hobby. His comments made me scratch my head a little, what is "soul", what is "musicality"? And how can I get them

Dylon
Las Vegas

I think what your friend may have been saying is that it is not natural sounding.
If, for example, you listen to a live performance of a small acoustical set-up, you hear bits of reverb and room interactions. Some SS systems,to me, removes this and makes the sound seem a little cold.
It's hard to describe, and many will jump all over the description even if I tried, so I won't.

JoshK · « **Reply #9 on:** 11 Nov 2006, 02:35 am »

Quote from: 95bcwh on 11 Nov 2006, 02:24 am

oh no no no...I am not picking on anything.. I have nothing but respect for Bryston, the manual writes:
"The harmonic content of the 4BSST is all even order"

Maybe I don't understand what that really means..

Oh...that is different then what I understood your first statement to be. I didn't think you were picking on them, I was apologizing for my appearance of picking on them. If it is all even order (although I am not sure how with PP SS circuits) then it is not in question here.

SET Man · « **Reply #10 on:** 11 Nov 2006, 02:35 am »

Quote from: JoshK on 11 Nov 2006, 02:19 am

Sorry for my previous tangent....Buddy does a much better job of getting to the heart of your question.

Hey!

Josh, thanks

But don't worry. It won't be long until he become like you and me.... crazy audio lunatics, especially if he gets in to DIY things.

Hey! by joying AC he is already half way there!

Here is a little thing I believe in... In life... if you like doing it and it doesn't hurt or harmful to yourself or others in any way than enjoy it and have fun.

Take care,
Buddy

JoshK · « **Reply #11 on:** 11 Nov 2006, 02:38 am »

Quote from: SET Man on 11 Nov 2006, 02:35 am

Quote from: JoshK on 11 Nov 2006, 02:19 am

Sorry for my previous tangent....Buddy does a much better job of getting to the heart of your question.

Hey!

Josh, thanks But don't worry. It won't be long until he become like you and me.... crazy audio lunatics, especially if he gets in to DIY things. Hey! by joying AC he is already half way there!

Here is a little thing I believe in... In life... if you like doing it and it doesn't hurt or harmful to yourself or others in any way than enjoy it and have fun.

Take care,
Buddy

Amen! I don't diy to save money...I probably don't in summation. I do it because I have control!

Scotty · « **Reply #12 on:** 11 Nov 2006, 02:58 am »

Dylon, If you enjoy the sound of your system and can listen to it for as long as you want with no listener fatigue,excluding the effects of listening at excessive
SPLs than you should not worry about what your friend says about your system.
It is okay for you to like the sound of your system while your friend does not.
Scotty

NoDiggity · « **Reply #13 on:** 11 Nov 2006, 03:52 am »

Thanks to all who'd kindly responded. Yes, I can listen to my system a long long time without feeling fatigue. So I'm very happy with my purchase. I shall go around and listen more to see if I find other system more "appealing" to me. Thank you all, this is a nice forum.

matix · « **Reply #14 on:** 11 Nov 2006, 04:00 am »

Welcome to AC.

What cables are you running on those equipments that you just bought?

Daygloworange · « **Reply #15 on:** 11 Nov 2006, 04:05 am »

Hey NoDiggity,

Welcome to Audiocircle.

Quote

A old friend of mine came to visit me, he happens to be a long-time audiophile too. After listening to my setup, he said:"Your system is doing everything correctly, but something is missing, it's lacking in soul, not musical enough to me."

I don't think your friend congratulated you on your foray into this hobby in a very encouraging manner. For someone just starting out, you've got a system that's a great head start. I would encourage you to not take one person's opinion to heart.

What he might actually be saying is that the sound is very revealing . In other words, of very high resolution that makes less than perfect recordings sound like just what they are. Less than perfect.

If he were to have told you that you that the system was too bright, or the mid-range was off, or the bass was loose and uncontrolled, or the imaging was off, or soundstage was missing.....these are specific problems that would need to be addressed.

But lacks musicality , isn't really saying anything specific. It's just his subjective opinion. Without elaborating on any specific issues, it's pretty meaningless. It just means, he doesn't like it.

If after listening for extended periods, you start to feel fatigued, or annoyed at a certain aspect of your system and feel like you want to turn it down, or off, then you might have a problem.

Don't take it to heart. Just hang out here. It is a great place to learn about equipment. You'll eventually learn to know what the areas, if any, you need to be concerned about.

Just enjoy your new gear, and give it some time, you'll be ok.

BTW, if that's the only negative comment he made, don't make a change, you might have an absolutely great system, and not even know it!

Cheers

G Georgopoulos · « **Reply #16 on:** 11 Nov 2006, 04:07 am »

Musicality is tonal richness, in case of amplifiers is some abstract sense
of richness that has to do with inner most workings of them
your friend questioned your system as a whole so musicality of
a system is the tonal richness of its components

NoDiggity · « **Reply #17 on:** 11 Nov 2006, 04:11 am »

Matix,
FIY, I'm using Audioquest all around, i.e Sky Interconnect and Volcano speaker cables. Are these good cables? (the dealer said they are!)

Dylon

Quote from: matix on 11 Nov 2006, 04:00 am

Welcome to AC.

What cables are you running on those equipments that you just bought?

woodsyi · « **Reply #18 on:** 11 Nov 2006, 04:24 am »

Welcome to AC Dylan and yes, they are top of the line cables. They may not have the best bang for the buck but then you are not excatly looking for a value system here.

Nice system. I think your friend may have been a tad bit jealous. I am getting a little gear envy even as I write this. BTW, you gotta do some room treatment to do your gear justice. Where are you so that I can come over and listen to this Teutonic beast of a system?

NoDiggity · « **Reply #19 on:** 11 Nov 2006, 04:28 am »

Ha! I didn't pay MSRP for everything, so don't be intimidated.

I'm in Vegas, any time you're coming to Vegas to burn some cash, give me a buzz aa

Quote from: woodsyi on 11 Nov 2006, 04:24 am

Welcome to AC Dylan and yes, they are top of the line cables. They may not have the best bang for the buck but then you are not excatly looking for a value system here. Nice system. I think your friend may have been a tad bit jealous. I am getting a little gear envy even as I write this. BTW, you gotta do some room treatment to do your gear justice. Where are you so that I can come over and listen to this Teutonic beast of a system?