[Vinnie R.]

The problem with spirited 'differences in professional opinion' like these is they become based more on 'religion' as opposed to fact. Perhaps the designer of the Imod can explain in more detail how and why capacitor "break-in" has any effect on a lowly audio signal and the related performance of their product. I've yet to see any reasonable explanation as to how this might occur - I'm sure these are talented and knowledgeable folks designing this equipment. I studied engineering in college (U. of Illinois) and took several EE classes so I'm definitely not 'ignorant' and I'm sure I could contribute some enlightening theory to the discussion. 

Hi elcaptain88,

I have not make any effort in researching capacitor break-in.  I don't have the equipment and time to do so, although it is an interesting topic.  However, this is not a topic that hasn't been discussed and debated for years.  If you search AudioAsylum forums (and other forums), you'll find plenty of heated discussion (and a few "witch-burnings" here and there  ) about capacitor break-in, along with the break-in of other electronics such as Cd players, amplifiers (tubes and SS), speakers, and even cables.  This topic is certainly NOT unique to the iMod and black gate capacitors, as I am sure you are aware of.

All I can say is that I have modded (and listened to) MANY of iPods using these Black Gate NX-Hi-Q capacitors.  I am very aware of what I am hearing, and I do hear what I perceive to be noticeable changes in the sound in the first ~ 100 hours of use, and even more after the next 200 hours of use.  I would say that just about all of my iMod customers have experienced the same thing (a change in the sound with time) and I get emials all the time from very happy iMod customers who go from liking the improvement that the iMod makes over the stock unit, to really loving the sound even more after they put the hours on it... selling off more expensive gear like dedicated transports and external dacs. 

On a side note, here is the link to Black Gate caps: http://www.blackgate.jp/english.htm

The only thing that 'breaks-in' is the space between your ears; you get used to the new sound after listening to it over 200+ hours.

I've had iMod customers who listen for a while when they receive their units (no break-in time) to become familiar with it, and then let the unit run on repeat mode for days (connected to a load) and then listen and report changes.  Their ears didn't have the time to get used to the new sound.

I've done similar tests with a Signature 30 amplifier that has a few hundred hours of use on it, vs. a brand new one that I am testing for the first time.  I can clearly hear a difference between them. 

I am not forcing anyone to purchase Red Wine Audio products, nor am I forcing them to believe what I and others hear.  YOU need to be the one who listens for yourself.  As they say, hearing is believing. 

If you don't hear these changes for yourself, I suppose you can either:

A) Not believe in the burn-in process of audio equipment.  While others claim that they do hear changes, YOU do not and therefore do not believe it.  You trust your ears, period.  This is fine.

B) Do the same as A above, but make an effort to debate with others that "they are just getting used to the sound," "it is all in their heads," "religion," etc. etc. etc.  In some cases, these debates will get out of hand, people will be attacked and burned at the stake, threads will be locked.  I hope this doesn't happen here!    Again this is nothing new.  To some, if they can't hear it for themselves, then they must make an effort to make sure that others feel like they are crazy for what they are hearing. 

If you DO hear these changes, but haven't taken measurements, can't find measurements, and don't have detailed data to prove what you are hearing, I suppose you can either:

A) Believe in what you are hearing.  You trust your ears, period.  This is fine!

B) Do the same as A above, but make an effort to debate with others that can't hear what you are hearing.  In some cases, these debates will get out of hand, people will be attacked and burned at the stake, threads will be locked.  I hope this doesn't happen here!    Again this is nothing new.  To some, if they CAN hear changes in the sound, then these people must make an effort to make sure that others feel like they are crazy for what they are NOT hearing. 


'Nuff said!   

Now, the Imod still charges in the same manner as the ipod right, through the dock connection?

Hi gooberdude,

All functionality of the iPod remains the same, except for the following"

1) No more line-out from the dock connector
2) No more headphone output.  The headphone output jack becomes a line out jack with a fixed 1Vrms output

Regarding battery time, it is not changed.  Well, it *might* be a tad bit better because I remove an op-amp, but these only draw small milliamps, so I'm not sure how much difference it makes.  I have not tested this or making any claims of longer battery life.

Sure, you need to introduce a volume control (because with ordinary phones the output is still too loud) but your music is available when travelling. I bought a Koss in line volume control (about $10) which has way too much wire, but gets the job done.

Hi Jampot,

The line out of the iMod prefers to see a load that is > 5,000 ohm (5k).  Headphones are usually somewhere in the 20 to 120 ohm range, which is a lot lower than most line-outs like to drive.  When adding an in-line attenuator, that will raise the impedance, but this will change with the volume setting.  I can see it working, but it might not work as well as using a dedicated headphone amp. 

I have tried it with a pair of Philips SBC HP430s that I picked up from Best Buy and it works very well!  These are efficient headphones (106dB ?) and really nice for the low cost!

GD, did you see the post about the show (montreal '05 I think) when Vinnie and Louis had vinyl in the room, let the cartridge track a record but played music off the iMod - Visitors are reported to have commented about how good the vinyl sounded

May be an 'apocryphal' story but I like it

This is TRUE and it happened more than one time.  I wish you were there in person to witness this!  Comments like "you see, digital can never sound like that!" and "its nice to hear a room with vinyl playing instead of that nasty digital sound" were made more often than you think.  It is as if once people saw the record playing, everything sounds smoother and more analogue like.     

We also did something similar at VTV 2006 in NJ.  This time, we recorded from Vinyl to the Olive music server's hard drive.  Now when playing back from the Olive, you could hear the pops in the recording and you really thought you were listening to Vinyl.    Similar comments were made. 

Thanks for all your posts,

Vinnie

[-Richard-]

Hi Vinnie ~

Very very interesting experiment... you plant visual/aural cues... records spinning, popping
sounds and so on... and the "conditioning" of the attending guests to what they
subsequently "imagine" is the-so called "analogue sound" prompts a response that is
"layered" onto the actual sound they are hearing ~

When I first posted my impressions of the Signature 30... I mentioned that my wife Deborah,
who has enormously sensitive hearing... said that "it sounds like a tube amp only perfect!" ~

I honestly feel that what you have done with the Signature 30 (and now reading the positive
post of the Signature 70 it is clear that it delivers even more of the magic) renders concerns
for media irrelevant... CD's and streaming bits from various sources like the ipod, need
a "different" kind of amplification and speakers in order to bring out the "natural" warmth
and richness of tone and texture that attract audio lovers to seek fulfillment through vinyl ~

This is not a diatribe against vinyl... spinning records are beautiful things to look at...
the contraptions designed to play them are incredible innovations of the art of engineering...
and on purely aesthetical grounds I can see their enormously seductive attraction
to music lovers looking for something that sounds like the "real thing" ~

But the Signature 30 and now apparently the Signature 70 even more so, deliver so much
of what is sought after in "analogue" sources, that the debate of "digital" vs "analogue"
sound is no longer the issue ~

Perhaps aesthetics... the look and feel of records vs the ipod... could very well illicit strong
personal performances... Deborah, for example likes CD's... and finds the idea of using an
ipod distances her from the act of putting a CD in the player... which, in spite of what would
appear to be more work, she finds deeply satisfying ~

Anyone reading this who is a avid "analogue" devotee owes it to themselves to give a listen
to the Signature 30... and now the Signature 70... to find out what we are all raving about ~

Warm Regards ~ Richard ~

[elcaptain88]

The problem with spirited 'differences in professional opinion' like these is they become based more on 'religion' as opposed to fact. Perhaps the designer of the Imod can explain in more detail how and why capacitor "break-in" has any effect on a lowly audio signal and the related performance of their product. I've yet to see any reasonable explanation as to how this might occur - I'm sure these are talented and knowledgeable folks designing this equipment. I studied engineering in college (U. of Illinois) and took several EE classes so I'm definitely not 'ignorant' and I'm sure I could contribute some enlightening theory to the discussion. 

Hi elcaptain88,

I have not make any effort in researching capacitor break-in.  I don't have the equipment and time to do so, although it is an interesting topic.  However, this is not a topic that hasn't been discussed and debated for years.  If you search AudioAsylum forums (and other forums), you'll find plenty of heated discussion (and a few "witch-burnings" here and there  ) about capacitor break-in, along with the break-in of other electronics such as Cd players, amplifiers (tubes and SS), speakers, and even cables.  This topic is certainly NOT unique to the iMod and black gate capacitors, as I am sure you are aware of.

I would think that if the 'break-in' of a rather basic component used in a product mod changed the resulting sound that much - the person designing the equipment would want and need to understand that process thoroughly.

I suppose if your customers are happy (or blissfully ignorant as the case may be) that's all that matters.

[Vinnie R.]

I would think that if the 'break-in' of a rather basic component used in a product mod changed the resulting sound that much - the person designing the equipment would want and need to understand that process thoroughly.

I suppose if your customers are happy (or blissfully ignorant as the case may be) that's all that matters.

Whatever you say, elcaptain88!

Happy listening,

Vinnie

[Daygloworange]

GD, did you see the post about the show (montreal '05 I think) when Vinnie and Louis had vinyl in the room, let the cartridge track a record but played music off the iMod - Visitors are reported to have commented about how good the vinyl sounded

   

That's a good story, I love it!

I've played recordings to drummers that are drum samples, triggered by pads, and they comment on how real they sound and not compressed and blah, blah, blah.....when in reality they're digital samples, and a lot of times not even thoroughly tweaked with all the envelope, pitch, and filtering capabilities of modern day samplers.

You can even dither down the sample rate of cymbals and they can't tell. 

Great sense of humor there Vinnie, I love it.

Cheers

[Vinnie R.]

Here is a follow-up thread by PostMDMA (thanks!):

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=33331.0

[Plink]

GD, did you see the post about the show (montreal '05 I think) when Vinnie and Louis had vinyl in the room, let the cartridge track a record but played music off the iMod - Visitors are reported to have commented about how good the vinyl sounded

May be an 'apocryphal' story but I like it

This is TRUE and it happened more than one time.  I wish you were there in person to witness this!  Comments like "you see, digital can never sound like that!" and "its nice to hear a room with vinyl playing instead of that nasty digital sound" were made more often than you think.  It is as if once people saw the record playing, everything sounds smoother and more analogue like.     

We also did something similar at VTV 2006 in NJ.  This time, we recorded from Vinyl to the Olive music server's hard drive.  Now when playing back from the Olive, you could hear the pops in the recording and you really thought you were listening to Vinyl.    Similar comments were made. 

Thanks for all your posts,

Vinnie

The key question is what digital examples were used.  Wonderfully mastered digital sounds fine (say, something mastered by the likes of Steve Hoffman or Doug Sax).  One big reason why many folks listen to lps is because engineers are limited in what they can do during the engineering phase and all the way through the process of cutting the record.  Additionally, if I was listening to a player that made horribly mastered cds sound analog like, I would question that player's ability with well mastered cds.  I would question but I wouldn't rule out the possibility that it can make both kinds of recordings sound good.

Lastly, I agree with how good analog-recorded to digital can sound, especially given today's technology.  I have confidence that Red Wine products are quite capable here but...with my crappy redbook player I just don't hear the soundstage bloom and openess that I get with vinyl - even with needle drops.  Certainly, the quality of the player is pertinent in this case. 

[-Richard-]

Hi Plink ~

We need to rethink our established "norms" in the case of Red Wine's Signature 30 amplifier...
yes, yes... I realize that our conditioned responses are nicely layered in somewhat "fixed"
patterns that prefer not to be disturbed by the introduction of new paradigms... and of course
this is not limited to audio... but operates on every level of consciousness... however it is
audio that we are looking at here... SS amps do tend to create a characteristic sound that
many who have studied this kind of phenomena suggest is due in part to the odd
order harmonics they generate across the sonic band ~

There tends to be a certain brittleness in the way that SS amps resolve (or lack there of)
upper frequency information that tubes for example well implemented are not guilty of...
yes... of course tubes have their own issues to be sure ~

The Signature 30 is the first and only SS amp I have ever heard that does not sound
like a SS amp.. but rather has the characteristics of an SET tube amp of the highest
kind of sophistication... however things do not stop there... the Signature 30 has a certain
perfection about it that is hard to describe... a smoothness and resolution that most tube
amps of the SET persuasion would die to be able to pull-off... it is extremely musical in
the best sense of that idea... uncannily quiet... and never NEVER gets in the way of the
music and calls attention to itself... I could safely say that in the present field of audio
amplification one need never have to look further than the Signature 30 to find audio
nirvana ~

What the Signature 30 does is to render digitally sourced musical material with the same
warmth, smoothness, resolution and "human" factor that many audio lovers seek by using
vinyl records and/or tube amps ~

It is perhaps hard to believe that the Signature 30 renders digitally sourced music with the
same characteristics as vinyl... but it is true and it is one of the things that makes the
Signature 30 so unique... and a fabulous example of the highest art in audio amplification
available today... a classic musical instrument in its own right!!!!!

So I can say with complete sincerity and confidence born of careful comparative listening that
media is no longer important in the audio equation... given the right speakers... the Signature
30 brings the magic to music that renders consideration of source a thing of the past ~

Incidentally... I use a $130 dollar "universal" CD player... junk by many audio lovers standards
and it sounds like what the mags would like you to believe a $20,000 CD player sounds like ~

An open-mind can save us all a great deal of money and heartache ~

Warm Regards ~ Richard ~

[gary]

I plan on writing up a pretty thorough review on my Sig 30, but for now it's safe to say my conclusions will be in line with what Richard has just posted. The amp gives you lightning-fast transients, stunning detail and clarity, and the warmth, texture, and holographic soundfield you'd expect from a very high-end SET amp. It's that good. I'll also be using vinyl with it, but unfortunately I haven't yet as I'm waiting for a replacement belt for my Clearaudio. Hopefully that'll be here in a week or so and I'll let you know how that compares with my digital source.

Gary

[Vinnie R.]

Hi Richard,

I appreicate all your kind words and love for your Signature 30. 


Hi Gary,

I look forward to your feedback.  I know you are still putting in the burn-in time on your Sig 30 and if you can post on how it has changed in the 1st 100-hours, that would be great! 

Also, if you can put this feedback on a Sig 30 thread (a new or previous one, such as this one: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=33401.0), that would be helpful because I don't want people to feel like this thread has been "thread-jacked" 

Thanks again!

Vinnie

[gary]

That's where I'll put it, but I'll also cross-post it in the Critics Circle. I think reviews often get too little attention when they're only posted in a specific manufacturer's circle instead of a place that everyone typically reads.

Gary

[Vinnie R.]

That's where I'll put it, but I'll also cross-post it in the Critics Circle. I think reviews often get too little attention when they're only posted in a specific manufacturer's circle instead of a place that everyone typically reads.

Gary

Nice idea! 

Thanks, Gary!

[-Richard-]

Hi Gary ~

I am looking forward to reading your impressions of the Signature 30 with your gear...
please let us know what kind of vinyl play-back equipment you are currently using ~

I have to admit I am extremely intrigued with the look of much of the fancier turn-table
gear out there... they look so fabulous!!!!! I can easily imagine that those folks who
purchase them and use them must be in love with the "operation" of those beasties!!!!!
Such a delicately nuanced machine... and most are stripped to the bare essentials,
creating a fascinating post-modern aesthetic ~

When Deb and I first got together I was using cheap turntable and not particularly
good cartridge with it... the turntable began to have some problems with the
speed adjustment so I gave it a chap who had a store on the west side of NYC...
he suggested I use a certain Shure cartridge with it... I said yes based on his high
recommendation... I did not yet know the importance that cartridges had on the sound...
when I got the turntable back I was astounded!!!!!

That Shure cartridge fleshed out the inner life of the music in a way I had never heard
before... it sounded so ripe!!!!!

The turntable soon began to demonstrate the same mechanical problems it had before and
I sent it back to the chap who fixed it... when I got it back again the Shure cartridge had
been replaced with something else and the sound had none of that ripe "presence"... I called
the store and found out that the fellow I had been dealing with was gone and his father now
was in charge... he refused to return the Shure cartridge to me saying that all cartridges
sound the same... this was a time in my life when I was so absorbed with the responsibilities
of my life that I just did not have the extra energy to march down to that store and demand
my cartridge back... besides I did not know exactly which one he had sold me... I had no
paper work and I never memorized the item name and number... so I very reluctantly
let the whole thing slip away from me... one of the most frustrating little episodes of my life!!!!

Warm Regards ~ Richard ~

[gary]

My analog source is somewhat humble, a Clearaudio Emotion table & arm ($1100cdn a few years back) and a bottlehead Seduction tube phono stage that I got on audiogon for $250 or so. My cat bit through both of the belts I had for the clearaudio, so even though I just got a nice new old stock Adcom cart from underwood hifi I'm out of commission until a new belt arrives... a very painful $40 plus shipping for what's basically a big rubber band. Oh well, such is life for an audiophile stupid enough to let cats and houseguests venture in to his audio room.

Gary

[-Richard-]

Hi Gary ~

Your cat does not like records... preferring by a wide margin digital sources ~

Since most cats cannot speak-up in order to express their strong feelings about such
important audiophile considerations they must take whatever actions they can ~

To us their actions appear random... but it seems clear that your cat finds the whole
idea of using an old technology like vinyl records rather arcane ~

Your cat is not alone... many cats find older technology a deplorable waste of time!!!!

Warm Regards ~ Richard ~