[Russell Dawkins]

I definitely do regret buying the Red Rose Emetic Reference amplifer some years ago.  Never will make that mistake again!

I just checked the dictionary, because I couldn't believe that Red Rose would have chosen that name if it meant what I thought it did, and it does:

emetic a. & n. (Medicine) that causes vomitting (also fig.)   

I can only guess that Levinson was issuing a warning in code!

oooops ... nevermind ... I just re-read the two posts above ... and got the joke! 

[SET Man]

Hey!

    Well, this is nothing new RRM have been doing this since Mr. Levinson started the company. For example as flintstone mentioned the Audioprism of which got many rave reviews and at $2.5k it was a great deal. Than of cause after RRM rebaged it the price to performance ratio dropped

    I remember when RRM had a store right at the Whitney Museum in NYC. I when there once after I visited the museum. I consider myself a DIYer and a well informed audiophile I was shock to see how much he charged for those Audioprism and other integrated amps! Than I step back and look at my surrounding... many people in that area are pretty wealthy and many Whitney museum visitors are also pretty wealthy. And of cause many of them are not an audiophile. So, they don't have a clue about this. I'm sure that when they walk in the RRM store that would be the first time they hear a real Hi-Fi and of cause since some of them are wealthy they could just drop a few grands after the demo without asking question.

    The RRM is no longer at the Whitney so I guess now he will have a much harder time selling. Maybe a higher mark up is just to make up for the rent and etc?

    As for the markup goes. Well, this is normal business practice to me. The only different is that some companies are more reasonable than others when is come to product markup.

     As for the buyers like us? Well, many of us need to become a more well informed and more of educated buyer. Don't be an impulsive buyer sometime is paid to be patience and do some research before you buy Think of how many non-audiophile who bought the RRM stuff than go home and did a research on the net and goes DOH!  I hope those people won't get turn off by Hi-End altogether

   Oh! BTW... for $7K I think you could get a Mark Levison integ-amp.... yeah! the one with his name on the front

Take care,
Buddy

[Dracule1]

ML has really damaged his reputation with RRM.  His name actually meant something when he was with Mark Levinson the company before he started RRM.  At least Mark Levinson is designed, engineered, and built (hopefully) in the US.  There is no pretense or deception. Everyone knows Mark Levinson the company makes quality product that shows on inspection and listening.  ML-2 amp was one of the most beautiful SS amp I've ever heard.  Although I can't afford most Mark Levinson company electronics, I still have respect for them.  It just pisses me off that RRM went about it in such a deceptive way to sell their products and to top it off charge an arm and leg for what basically is a cheap (not quality, but price) amp.  If you visit there website, RRM makes it sound like it's their own design that they meticulously engineered to beat reference components 10x the price.  Don't even get me started on the Erwin Bobcat thing - heard it and I think ML is going deaf.

[Brian Walsh]

Instead of griping about Red Rose Music pricing, look closer to home and express your feelings about Bose to people who are brainwashed by their advertising. Now that is something to get excited about.

[Dracule1]

Very good point Brian - don't get me started.  But I don't consider Bose high end at all, and compared to other midfi crap that's out there Bose is not any worse.  I know Bose pretends to be high end, but that's really laughable considering it's sold by pimple faced college kids at Best Buy who don't know any better.

There are others out there guilty of deceptive rebadging Chinese electronics from the likes of Vincent/Shengya, Burson Audio/Audio-gd, etc.  But they don't mark up their products like RRM.  ML was really a highend icon with his products known for innovation, quality, and customer service, but it's really sad to see the degeneration.

Music Hall is another, but Roy hasn't been deceptive about its Chinese origin and the prices are fair.  The guy has integrity.

[NewBuyer]

...There are others out there guilty of deceptive rebadging Chinese electronics from the likes of Vincent/Shengya, Burson Audio/Audio-gd, etc...

I don't think Burson Audio did anything like this. There was an issue with an overseas manufacturer "helping themselves" to their designs and selling them for a short time, but Burson put a stop to this.

The info below comes directly from Burson Audio:

The end to our OEM saga:

http://www.bursonaudio.com/Burson%20News.htm

Some of you may be aware that a couple of months ago we had a saga with one of our part suppliers illegally distributing some of our  DIY modules,  including the discrete opamp.  Fortunately  this issue has  been resolved.  We have ceased all dealings with that manufacture and they are complying with their promise to never distribute our designs and products again.  We would like to thank all those who have sent us kind words of support during  that difficult time.  Your support  has made all the difference!

I believe Burson Audio in all of this, they are a very good company and should be trusted. Just wanted to add this info to the thread for the record.

[Dracule1]

It is still not clear to me if the Burson products are truly their own or of Chinese origin because the Audio-gd site still is selling the discrete op amps.  The owners of the Chinese site speak no English and I can't read Chinese, so it's hard to get their side of the story.  There was some discrepancy on some of the positive posts on Burson at the DIYaudio site because the positive posts from couple of different users came from the same IP address - self promoting?.  If what Burson says is true, then my apologies.

[NewBuyer]

It is still not clear to me if the Burson products are truly their own or of Chinese origin because the Audio-gd site still is selling the discrete op amps.  The owners of the Chinese site speak no English and I can't read Chinese, so it's hard to get their side of the story.  There was some discrepancy on some of the positive posts on Burson at the DIYaudio site because the positive posts from couple of different users came from the same IP address - self promoting?.  If what Burson says is true, then my apologies.

Hi Dracule1,

Just wondering please, where exactly on the audio-gd site are you finding the discrete op-amp shown? I looked over there but somehow I'm not seeing it...

[GHM]

It is still not clear to me if the Burson products are truly their own or of Chinese origin because the Audio-gd site still is selling the discrete op amps.  The owners of the Chinese site speak no English and I can't read Chinese, so it's hard to get their side of the story.  There was some discrepancy on some of the positive posts on Burson at the DIYaudio site because the positive posts from couple of different users came from the same IP address - self promoting?.  If what Burson says is true, then my apologies.

Hi Dracule1,

Just wondering please, where exactly on the audio-gd site are you finding the discrete op-amp shown? I looked over there but somehow I'm not seeing it...

I did some checking too. The parts are no longer on this site. I talked to Alex about this several months ago. Burson gear was and is designed in house. They tried the OEM out in order to keep up with demand. The OEM decided they wanted to sell Burson parts on the side without the Burson teams permission. So as it stands..Burson isn't rebadging any thing. Their products are terrific...they don't need to self promote. The products will sell themselves as the word gets out.

[Dracule1]

My apologies and my mistake.  Seems like my inability to read Chinese got the best of me.  I don't see the Burson products on the Chinese site either.  Kudos to Burson for developing an original product.

[Eduardo AAVM]

I agree doing that (RRM) is completally unethical, but also there are some kind of customers who like to pay for brand.

Just to contribute a little, this also happens in reverse : Have you ever seen inside a NAD silver series integrated amplifier ? (I think that was the model) Well you may get surprised with what you find inside.

[amplifierguru]

China will copy anything, even if you have it manufactured by them under an agreement. Out the back door it goes.

My original designs, I showed on my website were, I'm told, sold by a China IP stealing company to a contract manufacturer in Shanghai. Even if the Patent comes through they don't care. They're not signatories to the Madrid protocol.... and what's it mean really.. if you have the money and lawyers and... you might get a result.



Cheers,
Greg

[amplifierguru]

But hey,

surprise, surprise.... my published 1992 unique design power amplifier FB concept was stolen in a 1998 US patent by a couple of Australians so ..

seems you can't trust anyone when you're creative.

Cheers,
Greg

[shep]

Here is a thought if there is enough interest and if the powers-that-be are willing: Either a totally new circle or a sub-circle related to this new and encroaching "problem" of Chinese imports/copy-cat...etc.
I reckon that the full measure has not been taken of the implications this has for the future of our "hobby". Thus far there is a measure of (vaguely uneasy) awe (low prices) and serious bitching; due to flagrant copy-right/patent infringement. I think we are only beginning to see the tip of the iceberg. What is maybe needed is serious listening/testing/sharing of experience. There are some really good products and some really bad coming our way from China. There are people no doubt hoping to make a killing while they can and others who just want to make a decent living.The ad hoc approach of a comment here and a review there, is not very serious. It should be made very public when some gear is rubbish or represents a clear form of robbery, and credit due when it is original or simply a great bargain. I mean they are not going to go away so this forum, among others, can serve as a very public sounding board and provide guide lines and a form of policing. I am sure that the middle-men are sensitive (they have no choice) to criticism, wrist slapping. If nobody buys, they go under! look on a site like http://www.ornec.com and you can see the beginnings of the iceburg.

[guest41324]

If you don't do your homework it's easy to get swindled no matter what you buy.
High end audio doesn't have a monopoly on second-rate products. Even so,  everyone here has heard a product that they thought was twice as good as another that cost twice as much. Hopefully forums such as these will aid in the pursuit and put the aforementioned companies where they belong.

[James Romeyn]

What difference does any of this make? Business is business. Buy what you like. Don't buy what you don't...whatever the reason may be.

Well I think it makes plenty of difference to those who don't spend time in forums...
We wouldn't want such an oh whatever attitude when it involved things that we were not well versed on.  When It comes time for your triple bypass surgery and your HMO starts giving you the stiff, yep there's someone in the board room saying:

What difference does any of this make? Business is business.  We'll choose the doctor we like or don't like...whatever the reason may be...

I hope you don't really need someone to list the life & death differences between buying a moderately high-expensive audio component & triple bypass surgery.  For one, medical licenses are incredibly difficult to get vs. a very easy occupancy permit to open a business importing audio equipment. 

This is more a case of certain individuals like Levinson than it is anything else.  Levinson started Cello then left owners hanging.  And RRM will soon wake up w/o a RRM if not already.  He'll be back shortly w/ another scam.  Stereophile sure loved him w/ their feature piece on him several years ago.  Hales Speakers did this more than once, & Genesis came/went & reappeared w/ no prior warranty enforcement. 

Call Stereophile & get the price for full-color one-page adds in 12 issues & you'll know why the magazines cover for this practice.  I'd estimate cost around $100k.

This explains why some people just buy McIntosh & forget about it.   

 

[JohninCR]

For one, medical licenses are incredibly difficult to get....

Apparently you didn't pay close attention in school to the overall quality of those who were PreMed.
Avoid getting sick is my motto.

[JLM]

Years after the fact, there still seems to be angst against Levinson.  We can't go more than 3 or 4 months without someone bringing up the name.  Perhaps a group therapy circle is needed for all the Levinson haters.   

I'm continuelly amazed that most audio manufacturers had/still have "real" lives.  Pierre Sprey, president of Mapleshade (audiophile recordings and various equipment tweaks), tells in his catalogs that he had served the U.S. government as a "whiz kid" in developing military jets.  I'd read it before, but somehow didn't sink in until I saw him interviewed on one of those TV learning channels.   

[ctviggen]

But hey,

surprise, surprise.... my published 1992 unique design power amplifier FB concept was stolen in a 1998 US patent by a couple of Australians so ..

seems you can't trust anyone when you're creative.

Cheers,
Greg

It's unlikely they "stole" the idea.  They most likely believed that what they had invented was novel.  They likely never saw your published concept (and most likely, neither did the patent office).  Moreover, you can send in your published concept:

35 U.S.C. 301 Citation of prior art.

Any person at any time may cite to the Office in writing prior art consisting of patents or printed publications which that person believes to have a bearingon the patentability of any claim of a particular patent. If the person explains in writing the pertinency and manner of applying such prior art to at least one claim of the patent, the citation of such prior art and the explanation thereof will become a part of the official file of the patent. At the written request of the person citing the prior art, his or her identity will be excluded from the patent file and kept confidential.

(Emphasis added)  So, feel free to send in your published concept to the PTO to have them place this in the file of the patent.  Note that you should explain the pertinency of your published concept to the claims of the patent (a patent is defined by its claims and not by what it discloses). 

As for Levinson, I know nothing of his business practices.  I do like his equipment, though I think it's overpriced.  He's got the "Wilson" idea of making everything look stunning.  But I think one can find items without the cache (how do I create an accented e?) but with the same or better performance.

[James Romeyn]

For one, medical licenses are incredibly difficult to get....

Apparently you didn't pay close attention in school to the overall quality of those who were PreMed.
Avoid getting sick is my motto.

Many lives are saved & lost in the practice of medicine daily.  What exactly & specifically might readers gain in comparing a licensed medical physician's proper practice to the operation of a high-end audio business?  Barring a clear answer readers can safely assume the answer is "nothing", as was my original point.