Do some high end manufacturers make you want to vomit with their...?

Dracule1 · « **on:** 1 Nov 2006, 04:50 am »

deceptive business practices? One of them is Red Rose Music (Mark Levinson's company). RRM takes a well known (at least in Asia) ~$1000 Chinese amp (Dussun v8i) adds some "better" parts and charges $7000 for it (Red Rose Affirmation). As far as I'm aware, there was no change in the electical or aesthetic design except for the Red Rose badge and 7x markup in price. RRM never tells the consumer it is a rebadged Chinese amp. To top it off, RRM website states it "surpasses high end reference electronics costing 10 times the price". Can you believe the bull excrement and irony in this statement? This is akin to Enzo Farrari taking a Hyundai and adding some better sounding mufflers and tires and rebranding it a Farrari. Can someone actually explain to me how RRM can justify 7x in markup cost when the design, research, and cost of manufacture of this amp was not done by RRM?

So I hope our AC moderator would allow this post as the one in Audiogon seems to deem this post too controversial.

nonoise · « **Reply #1 on:** 1 Nov 2006, 05:30 am »

I read something a long time ago about how Mark Levinson is nothing more than a rebadged Korsun product or something to that effect and posted it on Audiogon re: a discussion that bashed Chinese products and got no response. I guess that some folks like to think that 'made in America' allows people to get on their soapboxes and pontificate ad naseum. In this ever shrinking world we live in, one has to allow some latitude in their perceptions. That, and realize that there is some deceptive marketing going on.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #2 on:** 1 Nov 2006, 05:30 am »

Rant on, Dracule

I'm not ticked off by it 'cause nobody is forcing me to buy it, but I understand your frustration.

John/TCG (Moderator/Audio Ceontral)

chadh · « **Reply #3 on:** 1 Nov 2006, 06:03 am »

I wonder how many purchasers of the Red Rose Affirmation have returned it or sold it quickly because they felt it was not really worth $7000? I suspect very few. Ultimately there is a sufficient number of people believing the Red Rose gear is worth the extortionate prices to keep Red Rose in business. So where's the problem? We have some people with too much cash, willing to spend that cash on audio gear, who walk away from these deals as satisfied customers. Sounds like a wonderful outcome for all concerned.

Similarly, if Enzo Ferrari rebadged a Hyundai as a Ferrari, and people bought it for $250k and claimed to be satisfied that the car was worth $250k, I can't see a problem.

But isn't that "satisfied customer" getting screwed, buying the excellent amp for $7000 when he could get it for $1000? Not necessarily. And this isn't just an issue of caveat emptor either. It seems reasonable to think that Red Rose provides a valuable service in rebadging the Dussun.

For better or worse, the Dussun name isn't a famous one. And for most consumers, I imagine it would be largely indistinguishable from a veritable ocean of other Chinese designed, Chinese manufactured amps. Certainly, some of these will be great. Others will be lousy. What's more, they aren't easily available for audition in US stores. If something goes wrong, the Dussun will probably require shipping back to China, and that will only happen if the Dussun company doesn't disappear in the next few months - the average audiophile probably has no idea about the likelihood of Dussun remaining solvent. All in all, the purchase of a Dussun (for most consumers) is a huge crap-shoot.

But buying a Red Rose product is a safe bet. Mark Levinson puts his reputation on the line when he puts the Red Rose label on the amp: he vouches for its quality. He's done the hard work auditioning hundreds of Chinese amps to find one that is of sufficiently high quality to warrant the Red Rose label. He also makes them available for audition in stores (I presume), and provides local service support. And consumers are relatively happy to imagine that Red Rose will be around next year to honor a warranty. All of this is valuable, and nobody should be surprised if people show that they are prepared to pay for it. Is it worth $6000? Given that people actually buy the Red Rose, the answer is obviously "yes."

Shouldn't Red Rose be up front about things, and tell everyone that their product is simply a rebadged Dussun? Strangely, the answer seems to be "no". To see why, suppose they advertised the fact that their amp was a rebadged Dussun. Then a huge portion of the risk concerning the Dussun disappears. Essentially, everybody could sit around and watch to see whose amplifier Red Rose chooses to rebadge, and then run out and buy the original Chinese version. But if that were to happen, then Red Rose would not be able to do business. And if Red Rose were not operating, then we would lose that valuable service they provide in identifying the high quality amplifier.

At the end of the day, I have no idea whether these services provided by Red Rose are worth $6000 on this amp. But clearly, there are enough people around who feel that the additional $6000 is money well spent. Maybe this is because they feel "safer" buying an amp that Mark Levinson says is great. Maybe it's because they feel safer with an amp they can have serviced locally. Maybe they feel safer being able to audition the amp prior to purchase. Maybe they feel more confident that Red Rose will still be around a few years from now to honor the warranty. And maybe they just feel happier buying something with an American brand on it rather than a Chinese brand. Who knows. But Red Rose can only put a price tag on these things. They can't make anybody buy them. And it seems that enough people buy them to keep Red Rose in business.

Chad

Steve Eddy · « **Reply #4 on:** 1 Nov 2006, 06:13 am »

Quote from: Dracule1 on 1 Nov 2006, 04:50 am

deceptive business practices? One of them is Red Rose Music (Mark Levinson's company). RRM takes a well known (at least in Asia) ~$1000 Chinese amp (Dussun v8i) adds some "better" parts and charges $7000 for it (Red Rose Affirmation). As far as I'm aware, there was no change in the electical or aesthetic design except for the Red Rose badge and 7x markup in price.

Well, I guess that's an improvement over the 17x mark up on that $120 Korsun amp he was selling for $2,000.

se

amplifierguru · « **Reply #5 on:** 1 Nov 2006, 06:19 am »

I once did some modding on a product for a well known US audio company. The unit was shipped to me in Australia from the taiwan factory at an ex-factory price of ~$100. This product retailed in the US for ~$1K. This would be a fairly average markup.

Better off building kits if you want real value.

Cheers,
Greg

Dracule1 · « **Reply #6 on:** 1 Nov 2006, 06:41 am »

Chad I appreciate your point of view, but your arguments seem circuitous. By your argument, as long as the customer is satisfied, it doesn't matter if he got ripped off. Hmm...I don't think that satified customer would be if he knew he was ripped off. Unless he was retarded.

How many people who has some experience in the high end would knowingly buy a RRM amp if they new the truth. I would rather spend $1000 on a Dussun and save $6000. Lack of support? Again I would rather spend couple of hundred dollars for shipping for repair in China if it came down to that and still save $5800. Do you think ML would rebadge a Chinese product if he thought this stuff wouldn't last? It would be in his interest to find a product that was already well built to begin with. What valuable service is it to overcharge the customer by thousands of dollars for a product that has little chance of failing to begin with? BTW, RRM gets those Dusson for a lot less than what I quoted.

How many RRM owners do you know? I don't know any. Most RRM owners probably are not "audiophiles" (no bad or good connotations intended) who know value when they see it. I'm not arguing that RRM products are bad sounding. In fact, they probably sound really good and that's why people buy it - that is without knowing they can get essentially the same product for a fraction. Just plain deceptive.

From a business point of view, it's genius what ML has done - minimal effort, huge profit margin. For us consumers, it's just plain bad.

I have no problem with Chinese products - I actually own or have owned many because of their performance for the buck. That's how I picked up on RRM deceptive practice.

Dracule1 · « **Reply #7 on:** 1 Nov 2006, 06:45 am »

Hi Greg,

Just because others are doing the same deceptive practive doesn't make it right. But I agree, DIY is the way to go if you have the know how.

tvad,

Not sure if that book by ML is worth buying. He got divorced from his actress wife soon after that book came out.

JLM · « **Reply #8 on:** 1 Nov 2006, 10:52 am »

Years ago typical mark up was 100% for distribution and another 100% for "brick and mortar" retailing. So what cost $200 to build had a street price in the U.S. of $800.

The brands that disappoint me are the ones where the electronics guru who invented whatever gets pushed aside by the "suits" and they "capitalize" on his reputation to sell lesser quality at comparable prices.

Another brand that has disappointed me is B & O. When they first came to the U.S. in the 70's, their stuff was well made and won industrial design awards with intelligent concepts, ease of use, and sleek shapes. Since then they've gone way overboard with the asthestic aspects, literally inventing "techno gawdy" at the expense of quality and functionality.

earlmarc · « **Reply #9 on:** 1 Nov 2006, 11:53 am »

Mark Levison's business practices may be questionable, but he certainly isn't the only manufacturer that has rebadged Chinese products or has US brands made in China. The Dussun product is a quality product that offers high value for the money. Is the Affirmation worth $7000? I don't know. There are some internal differences. Is the Affirmation $5400 better than the Dussun V8i? I doubt it. I rate the V8i's value based on what it competes with in our market. I own the Odyssey Audio Khartago Mono Extremes, and I can tell you that the V8i is in that class of amplifiers ($2100). The Odyssey amplifiers are a high value product as well and are a desecendent of the Symphonic Line from Germany. If you bought the brother amplifier from Symphonic line you would pay 2.5 times amount over the Odyssey. Thus, I think the Affirmation may be overpriced and the Dussun V8i underpriced. I have not heard the Affirmation and thus can't place a value on it compared to other products in its price class. Ping Gong from AAA-Audio is the US distributor for Dussun and I know he is trained to service the Dussun products in the US. He stands behind his products as well as any other reputable manufacturer, and from a service standpoint, I'd give him the edge over Red Rose. Red Rose isn't a finacially stable company and I question how much longer it will be around. I know some well established and respected audio designers who own and stand behind the Dussun brand, Mark Levison included. We live in a market that allows a product to be sold for whatever price the market will accept. I belive the Dussun products may have affected what people are willing to pay for Red Rose products, however, if Red Rose folds, it won't because of Dussun. It will be Mark Levinson's doing. You can't overcharge for a product and expect consumers to buy them on name recognition alone. One day it will all catch up with you.

woodsyi · « **Reply #10 on:** 1 Nov 2006, 01:18 pm »

Is Red Rose still in business? I bought a demo gear from there a couple of years ago and service was atrocious. I e-mailed and called every contact I can get a hold of and ranted and raved before I got the gear (minus a remote). The unit worked fine and was in good shape but the missing remote never got resolved. I talked to a shipping manager and a business manager both of whom were fired/left before my ordeal was over. I even talked to Mark himself when he answered the call and was clearly disappointed that I wasn't who he was expecting. One of the guy who left Red Rose e-mailed me and said that Red Rose was on the brink of dissolving if Mark couldn't work something out with new investors. I got the feeling Mark had to let everyone go and was sitting by himself working on a last ditch deal with investors. I guess he found new investors if Red Rose is still in business. I personally will not doing any business with Red Rose and I wouldn't be all too confident that Red Rose will be around to service any gear it sells. Part of the deal is that you are paying for their high rent when you buy their stuff. I would rather buy from a store in Idaho.

robert1325 · « **Reply #11 on:** 1 Nov 2006, 02:05 pm »

I was thinking of getting the dussun v6i or ds99 , I auditioned the v6i and found it sounding very clinical , but that's the only really bad thing about this amp. I chose to buy another chinese amp , the G&W tw2006x , it's designed by wu gang ( famous designer in china)

I really like it

ctviggen · « **Reply #12 on:** 1 Nov 2006, 02:39 pm »

Very nice looking amp!

rbrb · « **Reply #13 on:** 1 Nov 2006, 05:23 pm »

Is what Red Rose doing really any different than what's happening in the world of digital switching amps. Companies are purchasing B&O ICE modules for $100 and putting them in fancy cases and selling them for $1000's of $$$.

Russell Dawkins · « **Reply #14 on:** 1 Nov 2006, 05:37 pm »

Quote from: rbrb on 1 Nov 2006, 05:23 pm

Is what Red Rose doing really any different than what's happening in the world of digital switching amps. Companies are purchasing B&O ICE modules for $100 and putting them in fancy cases and selling them for $1000's of $$$.

I think it is.

From a certain perspective the ICE module (the 1000 W version of which costs closer to $300 in bulk, I've heard) is just an expensive component, as are the Tripath modules, and need to involve design and manufacture before they can be sold.

What is being discussed here is re-badging which I can't help but view differently.

I think it could be justified somewhat if the solid customer support mentioned earlier were a fact, but when that is also fiction ...

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #15 on:** 1 Nov 2006, 05:37 pm »

Elegantly said, tvad.

If you have issue with it, don't buy it. If you have serious issue with it, inform others of it (as you have). The intenet is a powerful tool for both weeding out and creating deception. Past that, have a good lunch and sleep well - much ado about nothing really.

But, rant on if you must

flintstone · « **Reply #16 on:** 1 Nov 2006, 06:26 pm »

The Red Rose tube preamps and tube amps were designed and sold under the "Audioprism" name before Red Rose bought the rights to those components. I have an original Audioprism Mantissa preamp in my system...a very good tubed preamp BTW.

After the rebadge...the preamps price went from $2,500 to $5,000 for the standard preamp. The "Silver Signature" went from $5,000 to $10,000. I'm not sure you can fault the guy for being a smart buyer...and an even smarter seller!

Dave

launche · « **Reply #17 on:** 1 Nov 2006, 07:43 pm »

Quote from: tvad4 on 1 Nov 2006, 05:28 pm

What difference does any of this make? Business is business. Buy what you like. Don't buy what you don't...whatever the reason may be.

Well I think it makes plenty of difference to those who don't spend time in forums and such who get sold this stuff by a dealer or whomever. For those who don't have the ultimate desire and time to get background on all these happenings, it matters a lot. and I'm sure they would feel stupid or taken if they found out. Of course once you know something then you have a choice. This type of stuff happens to all of us on different levels but I for one always feel "taken" when I become aware of such practices for something I purchased.

We wouldn't want such an oh whatever attitude when it involved things that we were not well versed on. When It comes time for your triple bypass surgery and your HMO starts giving you the stiff, yep there's someone in the board room saying:

What difference does any of this make? Business is business. We'll choose the doctor we like or don't like...whatever the reason may be.

Not trying to ruffle any feathers, just a reminder that we're all in this together. We feel it either directly or indirectly.

nathanm · « **Reply #18 on:** 1 Nov 2006, 07:45 pm »

I definitely do regret buying the Red Rose Emetic Reference amplifer some years ago. Never will make that mistake again!

Steve Eddy · « **Reply #19 on:** 1 Nov 2006, 08:08 pm »

Quote from: nathanm on 1 Nov 2006, 07:45 pm

I definitely do regret buying the Red Rose Emetic Reference amplifer some years ago. Never will make that mistake again!

Yeah. The Emetic was really just a generic amplifier. You should have waited for the Ipecac Silver Reference. Though some have said they thought it sounded just a bit too syrupy.

se