[jhm731]

The part that is amazing is that seemingly fairly intelligent people could think a different power cord could make a difference. Then they're willing to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for something that does nothing and all the while listening to their systems in a room with horrible acoustics listening for these non existant differences.

It's not that amazing. People love plug and play upgrades like power cords, interconnects. speakers cables and power conditioners.

What I find more amazing are the people who buy big monkey coffin style speakers and put them in small rooms.
 

[TomW16]

Oh boy, power cord discussion again.  The only solution is to use battery power and get completely off the grid.  (Just throwing gasoline on the fire  )

Tom

[Eric]

Martin De Wulf asks readers in his newsletter this month to try different power cords with their coffee makers? He says it half jokingly but also half seriously.

I'd love to have a power cord shootout with these guys. Of course we would be changing them without telling anybody what was being used. Actually you could probably leave the same one in there and tell these people you changed it and they'd hear the difference. I'm sure it's purely psychological.

The part that is amazing is that seemingly fairly intelligent people could think a different power cord could make a difference. Then they're willing to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for something that does nothing and all the while listening to their systems in a room with horrible acoustics listening for these non existant differences.

But if you read all of BFS Marty does believe Power Cords make an audible difference

[Wayner]

By the way Mr. Boead,

Frank happens to be my friend. He is not hard of hearing as your little blurb seemes to imply. And he also actually uses test instruments to evaluate circuit design, imagine that. I recently had my hearing checked and guess what, I hear better than a lot of teens, 'cause I don't listen to rap crap in my car with the volume set at 3' o'clock. As far as beating around the bush, please stop. Just come to the point, if you will. To listen to Frank's Ultimate 70 with his HT3's just with TV input was very impressive. There is no requirement for "magic power cords". If you want to spend the money on such foolish persuits, let it fly.

[boead]

By the way Mr. Boead,

Frank happens to be my friend. He is not hard of hearing as your little blurb seemes to imply. And he also actually uses test instruments to evaluate circuit design, imagine that. I recently had my hearing checked and guess what, I hear better than a lot of teens, 'cause I don't listen to rap crap in my car with the volume set at 3' o'clock. As far as beating around the bush, please stop. Just come to the point, if you will. To listen to Frank's Ultimate 70 with his HT3's just with TV input was very impressive. There is no requirement for "magic power cords". If you want to spend the money on such foolish persuits, let it fly.

My comments are not directed to any one particular person, I think that was clear enough.

I think Mr. Wayner (since we’re begin formal) you need to go back and re-read this thread, I’m not repeating myself and its obvious you haven’t fully read the comments made within so any further conversation if futile.

I have no desire to listen to Franks Ultimate 70. I had his T7 preamp for about two years and although I liked it I found the McAlister preamp to be superior in all ways important to me. It sounds more transparent; imaging is more focused and defined, has a lot more bass weight and authority and is quite frankly more musical to my ears and taste. It was also cheaper and looks way cooler. Not knocking Van Alstine’s equipment, I would recommend (and I do) the product I owned and will always value owing it.

There are no ‘magic power cords’ or fairy’s with boots that I am aware of, if you know of any please share with us. I do know that there are quiet a number of cable manufacturers that put lots of effort in finding wire that cater to all different tastes. You might find it enlightening to experience them one day.
Using grossly overpriced cords as typical examples is misleading and erroneous to your point and the points trying to be made here. There are $50,000 per channel amps and $250,000 speakers available in this hobby too but those mentions have no value to our conversation. Popular power cords runs between $75 and $500 depending on length. Same holds true for interconnects and speaker wire. Just as I’m not interested in $9000 mono-block amplifiers, and $12,000 speakers, I’m not interested in $1100 power cords and $2000 speakers cables. I don’t know why that was even dragged into the thread, it has no value.

[Sasha]

There was a fella that developed formulas years ago and it is called Ohm's Law. It deals with electricity at the molecular level and proves through math that the world, the universe and even electronic circuits seek harmony and balance.

This is interesting, how does Ohm's Law deal with electricity at molecular level?

Fact: a larger cross-sectional area of a conductor will have 1) less resistance and 2) have higher amperage carring capacity then it's smaller conductor counterpart. The next fact is that the subsequent conductor will nullify the first conductor if its cross-sectional area is smaller when hooked in series; i.e. the resistance of the smaller conductor and its current carring capacity rule.

And gets even more interesting, how does this “fact” apply to superconductivity?

If the designer of a piece of audio equipment didn't take the time to make sure that susceptible circuits were properly shielded and the new "zillion dollar" power cord had some better shielding, then the result may be less noise.

And then, properly shielded power cord will reduce noise induced in improperly shielded circuits?

Other than that, the rest of any argument has zero base in science.

What kind of science is this?
This sounds more like middle age dogma?

Many people believe that there is such a thing as a rechargeable battery, when in fact this is not true. The fact is that the battery is a chemical device that creates a build up of positive charge. The battery should really be called a regenerating battery as those types of batteries that are intended to be put into a recharger are actually having the chemical process reversed, so that the chemical reaction that creates the charge can happen again.

This is called physics.

Thank you professor.

Anyone that believes in the magic power cords really needs to start understanding marketing and science. They are at the opposite ends of the spectrum many times.

Thank you for opening my eyes.

[Wayner]

How does Ohm's law deal with electricity at the molecular level? My, oh my, what is we going to do?

Unshielded AC can cause hum? Oh, nooooooooooo, I mean hummmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Superconductors. There isn't any point to discussing that.

[rustneversleeps]

I am not a big fan of fancy power cords and cables, but I have a question about what Frank said.

Frank likes to bring up how small the wire is in a coil of a speaker and a power transformer, therefore, a few feet of large gauge cable or wire before that don't really matter.

But in a coil or transformer, once the small wire become a coil, doesn't the wire in a coil do more than just conducting current? I thought more current in a coil would make the magnetic field more intense, and in a speaker, Q starts coming to play, and the cabinet has it's own mechanical Q and whole bunch of other factors involved. Correct me if I am wrong.

[Psychicanimal]

Darn it Dan, why did you start this all up again?  I would of course supply 10 gauge power cords, but then I would have to wind the primary of the power transformer with 10 gauge wire too (to match of course), and it would make the amplifier the size of a steamer chest and weigh 200 pounds and cost $40,000.00.

I think this might have more of negative effect on sales than the increased musicality of the 10 gauge wiring and transformer.  Other problems, can't seem to find any vacuum tubes with 10 gauge pins or transistors with 10 gauge interelectrode connections.  Makes the PC cards kind of hard to deal with too.  10 gauge resistor leads seem to be scarce also.

Darn it, so impossible to get that 10 gauge power cord sound from front to back.  Oh yes, then there is the 10 gauge wiring of the tweeter voice coils, tends to slow them down a bit, but could be useful with some of our competitor's electronics. 

Frank Van Alstine

This particular cable designer (from which I got my interconnects) claims that a proper power cord should address the issue of phase shift between voltage and current, bringing them in phase at the component end.  He also states that although a power supply can be designed to *actively* address this issue, very few manufacturers actually do.

I have no electrical knowledge, but a friend of mine who is a circuit designer bought this guy's power cords for all his components.  Two questions come to mind,

1) to what extent is this phase shift issue correct?

2) if so, are your amplifiers designed in such a way to correct this alleged phase shift?

[shep]

If I did a poll on this forum, I’m sure most are over 40 years old and a lot over 50 with quite a number over 60. I bet the 18 to 24 age bracket is tiny and the 25 to 39 smaller then you think. By age 35 many of us already have some hearing loss due to environmental conditions, by 45 more is gone now due to age and by 60 a significant amount is gone. You might think you hear just fine and you likely do but your frequency curve and perception is way off. Its part of life, then we die.

Did I make my point loud and clear (especially for you old folks and people in the back rows).

WHAT DID HE SAY??? I resent that! Why do you guys have to take all the fun away??? I was just about to pay 1000 euros for a gold and platinum bio-silk wrapped power cord. Now I'm uncertain...

[warnerwh]

Everyone should always keep an open mind however because nobody knows everything. I do remember Frank stating that he believed the Kimber cables he put in his system made it sound better. I think he said he wouldn't have paid for them though. Ray probably sent them to him for free. This was in an Audio Basics newsletter some years ago.

I know for a fact RCA cables can definitely affect the sound. How much per dollar is the reason I personally wouldn't spend alot of money on wire. It can however have enough of an effect for some to consider it important enough to spend the money on especially if they have lots of money. 

[denjo]

Wannerwh

Your recollection about the Kimbers are spot on. In fact the specific cable in question was the Kimber KC1 which I bought waaaaay back in 1994 and still sounds terrific! I glanced through Kimber's latest brochure and while I see that the ubiquitous PBJ is still offered, I did not seem to see the KC1. I wonder if the Hero is a reincarnation of the KC1! Frank did also say that the KC1 made his system sound more sweet. So, I guess cables do make a difference then! I think Frank's point is the cost/performance ratio.

Best Regards
Dennis

[Psychicanimal]

I asked a difficult question, I know...

Still recommended the VA hybrid power amp to my brother in law.  Too bad it comes with a fixed lamp cord.

[boead]

If I did a poll on this forum, I’m sure most are over 40 years old and a lot over 50 with quite a number over 60. I bet the 18 to 24 age bracket is tiny and the 25 to 39 smaller then you think. By age 35 many of us already have some hearing loss due to environmental conditions, by 45 more is gone now due to age and by 60 a significant amount is gone. You might think you hear just fine and you likely do but your frequency curve and perception is way off. Its part of life, then we die.

Did I make my point loud and clear (especially for you old folks and people in the back rows).

WHAT DID HE SAY??? I resent that! Why do you guys have to take all the fun away??? I was just about to pay 1000 euros for a gold and platinum bio-silk wrapped power cord. Now I'm uncertain...

Forget about the power cord, start buying Metamucil.

Oh and save yourself a few bucks, sell your AVA gear and replace it with something half its price - all amps sound the same anyway and god knows that any other looks nicer.

[Dan Banquer]

I posted the text below from another forum that I sometimes post on. For the more technically minded I hope it makes you think about some of the ramifications of what aftermarket power cords can do. I also think Frank might have some comments.
          d.b.



"I thought you might appreciate an anecdote on how a "high end" power cord can really screw things up.
A critic came by to visit some years ago and brought with him a Van Evers "tunable power cord" the power cord had a slider on the outside of the jacket that allowed one to "tune" their system.
So we plug this contraption into my pre amp and I put the slider at mid point on the cord. I get a relatively high amplitude bass note and I get gross distortion. The slider goes to the end of cord near one of the terminations and the gross distortion goes away. I do however note that something is not quite right with this contraption. I got the critic to leave it with me for a few weeks so I can take it into work for measurement.
I put it on an HP LRC analyzer and found nothing remarkable in terms of reactance or resistance. I then used the function that allowed me to meter the change in phase of the current at 100 Hz.
Note! with the slider near the cable terminations the change in phase of the current was approximately -7 degrees. At the middle of the power cord the phase shift of the current was approximately -25 degrees.
In discussion with another engineer we agreed that the change in the phase of the current could only be from the magnetic field from the "slider". In addition the gross distortion I was hearing was probably due to the phase of the current being changed enough to alter the charge cycle that normally happens on a standard linear power supply. In short: as the voltage peaked across the PS caps the current was far enough out of phase so the caps would not get charged as they normally would.
So: Now you have some idea on how high end line cords can screw up a standard linear power supply."

[nathanm]

If armchair remastering is the goal as opposed to as-linear-as-possible then perhaps a useful audiophile product of the future would be a DAC that supported software DSP plugins so you could tweak whatever you wanted.  REAL changes too, beyond the realm of controversey and placebo effect.  Wouldn't it be so much easier to sit and twiddle knobs instead of squatting behind the rack messing with the hardware?  If tonal affectation is what people want there's like a bazillion more efficient ways to do it.

[miklorsmith]

This topic has been hashed over at least three times before. 

1.  There is no agreement between aphiles, manufacturers, or anybody.
2.  Nonbelievers are sticks-in-the mud.
3.  Believers are starry-eyed fools.
4.  Trust your own ears.
5.  #2's will cast you as #3 for believing in #4.
6.  There is little empirical truth in what you hear.  Stereophile's "Measurements" section of the review on my SET amp is a stark example of that.  I'm not saying they have no role in the design of equipment, merely that 'statistics' won't dictate what the happy hairs like.
007.  New Bond Soon!  Woo Hoo!!

Seriously, this discussion has all the appeal of um, um, um, geez, a cable debate. 

[Psychicanimal]

So: Now you have some idea on how high end line cords can screw up a standard linear power supply."

What a generalization!!!

[warnerwh]

Well if a power cord can make the sound worse why shouldn't it be able to make the sound better?

[Daygloworange]

If armchair remastering is the goal as opposed to as-linear-as-possible then perhaps a useful audiophile product of the future would be a DAC that supported software DSP plugins so you could tweak whatever you wanted.  REAL changes too, beyond the realm of controversey and placebo effect.  Wouldn't it be so much easier to sit and twiddle knobs instead of squatting behind the rack messing with the hardware?  If tonal affectation is what people want there's like a bazillion more efficient ways to do it.

Very eloquently put.
Armchair remastering. I wish I thought that up!

Well if a power cord can make the sound worse why shouldn't it be able to make the sound better?

Logical. Maybe too logical. I think Dan Banquer's example shows one way it certainly can. I had no idea, power cords had phase.

Seriously, this discussion has all the appeal of um, um, um, geez, a cable debate. 

You're right. I think I'll stop reading this and go watch The View.

Cheers