USB DACs

PLMONROE · « **on:** 18 Oct 2006, 12:28 pm »

Steve, can you give us some comparisons on the USB DACs you have under development?

audioengr · « **Reply #1 on:** 18 Oct 2006, 06:02 pm »

Well, all I can compare now is the Spoiler, which is still being tweaked and breaking-in.

The Spoiler is based on the Lite DAC-60, so it is tube-output. It has a really 3-D soundstage and very listenable. Yesterday I tried an improved power cord and changed the fuse in it and this made a big difference. Today, I will play with some shielding around the tubes. It think is has potential to sound even better than the modded DAC-1 with I2S interface. It is very close to that now. It still has a slight "tubey" sound, but has great bass and good HF extension. I think the tubes prevent it from having that ultimate ultra-clear top end that the Benchmark DAC-1 with I2S has, but vocals seem a bit more live with it. I believe a lot of customers that want to listen to older harsh recordings will appreciate this. My goal is to achieve the same bass tightness, dynamics and HF air as I get with the DAC-1, only better 3-D rendering. I also tried 16/44.1 with the Spoiler yesterday and this sounded really amazing. I think this mode may be better than the DAC-1 already. The I2S interface on the DAC-60 has more functionality than that on the DAC-1 because it decodes the sample rate etc.., but the transmission-lines are more difficult to get perfect, so I'm still looking at this as well.

As for my own SS DAC, the Formula One, it is still in design. It will not have any of the limitations that I have run into with the DAC-1 or the DAC-60, so I expect it to be much better. Hard for even me to believe that it can get much better than the DAC-1 with I2S. First step is to finish the layout of the "Pace-Car", which is a part of the Formula One, and also a stand-alone product. It's looking like I wil be hardpressed to just get the Pace-Car done for CES this year, much less the Formula One...

Steve N.

smk5r · « **Reply #2 on:** 18 Oct 2006, 07:20 pm »

I am a lucky owner of an EA modded DAC60 with USB input. Undeniably, the best digital I have ever heard. The DAC has made me fundamentally reconsider the significance of the 'front end' in the signal chain. I cannot imagine the sound being substantially improved upon. Furthermore, the USB input allows for great flexibility (I've managed to do room correction).

Acudoc · « **Reply #3 on:** 18 Oct 2006, 09:51 pm »

What is the cost to mod the DAC60?

I could not find it on the website.

Thanks

John

audioengr · « **Reply #4 on:** 18 Oct 2006, 10:03 pm »

Quote from: Acudoc on 18 Oct 2006, 09:51 pm

What is the cost to mod the DAC60?

I could not find it on the website.

Thanks

John

I am putting it out as a product. I suppose if you sent me yours, I could discount it the cost of the DAC-60 and make it into a Spoiler. The total price for the Spoiler will be in the $3999 range with Amperex tubes. Siemens tubes, probably $300-$350 more.

Since I'm not done tweaking it yet, I cannot set a firm price. This one is to go out for review. Where do you think I should have it reviewed first????

Steve N.

PLMONROE · « **Reply #5 on:** 18 Oct 2006, 10:52 pm »

Then if I want to have the best USB DAC on planet Earth I will have to wait for the Formula One? If the Pace Car is a stand alone unit but is a part of the Formula One am I to assume that it is either the DAC portion or the USB connectivity portion?

audioengr · « **Reply #6 on:** 19 Oct 2006, 12:25 am »

Quote from: PLMONROE on 18 Oct 2006, 10:52 pm

Then if I want to have the best USB DAC on planet Earth I will have to wait for the Formula One? If the Pace Car is a stand alone unit but is a part of the Formula One am I to assume that it is either the DAC portion or the USB connectivity portion?

The Pace-Car is actually neither. It has I2S in and I2S out and reduces clock jitter significantly. The stand-alone version will insert between the Off-Ramp I2S and the I2S input DAC. The same thing happens inside the Formula One, it's just in one convenient box and uses my own I2S DAC design.

And the best DAC on the planet, probably you need the Formula One.

Steve N.

PLMONROE · « **Reply #7 on:** 19 Oct 2006, 02:27 am »

#1 Thanks
#2 Hurry up

serengetiplains · « **Reply #8 on:** 19 Oct 2006, 04:19 am »

Steve, I'd send it to Positive Feedback. That opinion is based on no more than a horse sense. PF seems very fair, to me. Mind you, if you get the Absolute Sound onside .... ahem.

Can you tell us anything about the tube stage? Is it capacitor coupled? Transformer coupled? Regulated PSU? What kind of capacitors do you use in the PSU + coupling?

audioengr · « **Reply #9 on:** 19 Oct 2006, 07:11 pm »

Quote from: serengetiplains on 19 Oct 2006, 04:19 am

Steve, I'd send it to Positive Feedback. That opinion is based on no more than a horse sense. PF seems very fair, to me. Mind you, if you get the Absolute Sound onside .... ahem.

Can you tell us anything about the tube stage? Is it capacitor coupled? Transformer coupled? Regulated PSU? What kind of capacitors do you use in the PSU + coupling?

Tubes are cap-coupled. Very good caps, expensive. Regulated power supply.

Power caps are Black Gates, some Polypropylenes and some Teflons - Relcaps

Coupling caps are oil plus Teflon. V-cap oils and my trade secret Teflons.

Steve N.

ted_b · « **Reply #10 on:** 30 Nov 2006, 11:55 pm »

Quote from: audioengr on 18 Oct 2006, 10:03 pm

Quote from: Acudoc on 18 Oct 2006, 09:51 pm
What is the cost to mod the DAC60?

I could not find it on the website.

Thanks

John

I am putting it out as a product. I suppose if you sent me yours, I could discount it the cost of the DAC-60 and make it into a Spoiler. The total price for the Spoiler will be in the $3999 range with Amperex tubes. Siemens tubes, probably $300-$350 more.

Since I'm not done tweaking it yet, I cannot set a firm price. This one is to go out for review. Where do you think I should have it reviewed first????

Steve N.

Wow, Steve, am I reading this right? On Oct 18th you thought the Spoiler would be $3999-ish and now your website says $6K? What happened. I'm gonna be in the market for a SOTA Dac and I've been eying the APLHiFi announcement (Alex is no slouch either) at $3999:
"Standard AES/EBU, S/PDIF, Optical, USB inputs and RCA SE outputs. Proprietary S/PDIF-like input with Microprocessor control for connection to the APL Hi-Fi transport is also standard. This will allow for SACD and DVD-A playback. Optional HDMI, Fire Wire and Analog inputs are in the works. Balanced IN/OUT is optional.

Internal topology is two R-Core power transformers with all linear high quality/low noise power supplies, 6x fully differential top line AKM DACs which equals 12 DACs per channel, 211KHz/32bit Upsampler, H-Attenuator (defeatable with switch on the back) and Hybrid Analog stage with double 6H30 tubes providing very low output impedance for eventual direct-to-amp connection. Remote controlled attenuation with 0.5db step, slow and sharp digital filter roll-off, input selection and dimmer. The blue LED display will show APL Hi-Fi at power on, then will count warm-up and then will show the channel number on the left and Attenuator level value 0-99 on the right. All inputs will have the function to "remember" the volume level they were previously set at."

What is it about the Spoiler that makes it $2000 more than it was gonna be? And while you're at it, compare it on paper to the APL Dac...thx

Ted

audioengr · « **Reply #11 on:** 1 Dec 2006, 06:47 am »

Quote from: ted_b on 30 Nov 2006, 11:55 pm

Quote from: audioengr on 18 Oct 2006, 10:03 pm
Quote from: Acudoc on 18 Oct 2006, 09:51 pm
What is the cost to mod the DAC60?

I could not find it on the website.

Thanks

John

I am putting it out as a product. I suppose if you sent me yours, I could discount it the cost of the DAC-60 and make it into a Spoiler. The total price for the Spoiler will be in the $3999 range with Amperex tubes. Siemens tubes, probably $300-$350 more.

Since I'm not done tweaking it yet, I cannot set a firm price. This one is to go out for review. Where do you think I should have it reviewed first????

Steve N.
Wow, Steve, am I reading this right? On Oct 18th you thought the Spoiler would be $3999-ish and now your website says $6K? What happened. I'm gonna be in the market for a SOTA Dac and I've been eying the APLHiFi announcement (Alex is no slouch either) at $3999:
"Standard AES/EBU, S/PDIF, Optical, USB inputs and RCA SE outputs. Proprietary S/PDIF-like input with Microprocessor control for connection to the APL Hi-Fi transport is also standard. This will allow for SACD and DVD-A playback. Optional HDMI, Fire Wire and Analog inputs are in the works. Balanced IN/OUT is optional.

Internal topology is two R-Core power transformers with all linear high quality/low noise power supplies, 6x fully differential top line AKM DACs which equals 12 DACs per channel, 211KHz/32bit Upsampler, H-Attenuator (defeatable with switch on the back) and Hybrid Analog stage with double 6H30 tubes providing very low output impedance for eventual direct-to-amp connection. Remote controlled attenuation with 0.5db step, slow and sharp digital filter roll-off, input selection and dimmer. The blue LED display will show APL Hi-Fi at power on, then will count warm-up and then will show the channel number on the left and Attenuator level value 0-99 on the right. All inputs will have the function to "remember" the volume level they were previously set at."

What is it about the Spoiler that makes it $2000 more than it was gonna be? And while you're at it, compare it on paper to the APL Dac...thx

Ted

I have put a lot more into the spoiler, so it costs me $4000 to make one. I plan to sell it through dealers and distributors, so they need some margin. Also need some wiggle room for discounting. Besides, it will bury most DAC's on the planet. It is truly the best DAC I have heard. Easily beats the Cryo treated Dodson 218 at $8K for instance.

Steve N.

PLMONROE · « **Reply #12 on:** 2 Dec 2006, 12:58 am »

So does this mean that the Spoiler will not be available through you Steve?

Paul

Alex Peychev · « **Reply #13 on:** 2 Dec 2006, 02:45 am »

Quote from: audioengr on 18 Oct 2006, 10:03 pm

I cannot believe he is using the AKM DAC's. I hate the sound of these.

Steve, would you please elaborate? Specifically, when did you have the chance to evaluate AK4396 DAC chip? What was the product using the AK4396 you’ve heard and hated?

Quote from: audioengr on 18 Oct 2006, 10:03 pm

I have put a lot more into the spoiler, so it costs me $4000 to make one. I plan to sell it through dealers and distributors, so they need some margin. Also need some wiggle room for discounting.

The $3995 for the new APL DAC includes dealer margin as well.

Quote from: audioengr on 18 Oct 2006, 10:03 pm

Besides, it will bury most DAC's on the planet.

I'd think twice!

Regards,
Alex Peychev

audioengr · « **Reply #14 on:** 2 Dec 2006, 06:44 am »

Quote from: PLMONROE on 2 Dec 2006, 12:58 am

So does this mean that the Spoiler will not be available through you Steve?

Paul

Yes, it will be available through me as well.
Steve N.

audioengr · « **Reply #15 on:** 2 Dec 2006, 06:48 am »

Quote from: Alex Peychev on 2 Dec 2006, 02:45 am

Quote from: audioengr on 18 Oct 2006, 10:03 pm
I cannot believe he is using the AKM DAC's. I hate the sound of these.

Steve, would you please elaborate? Specifically, when did you have the chance to evaluate AK4396 DAC chip? What was the product using the AK4396 you’ve heard and hated?.

I evaluated the AK4394 with their evaluation board, which I modded significantly to make it as good as possible, and I powered it directly from SLA batteries to give it the best benefit. I even drive it directly with my I2S interface, no S/PDIF. It had excellent detail and depth rendering, but I just didn't feel that it was as musical as the PCM1704 or the AD1853. I've read other evaluations from other designers that came to the same conclusion. I believe they felt that the switched-capacitor filters are the reason.

Steve N.

audioengr · « **Reply #16 on:** 2 Dec 2006, 06:51 am »

Quote from: Alex Peychev on 2 Dec 2006, 02:45 am

The $3995 for the new APL DAC includes dealer margin as well.

Sounds like a fair price for the features you have in it.

Steve N.

Alex Peychev · « **Reply #17 on:** 2 Dec 2006, 07:41 am »

Quote from: audioengr on 2 Dec 2006, 06:48 am

I evaluated the AK4396 with their evaluation board, which I modded significantly to make it as good as possible, and I powered it directly from SLA batteries to give it the best benefit. I even drive it directly with my I2S interface, no S/PDIF. It had excellent detail and depth rendering, but I just didn't feel that it was as musical as the PCM1704 or the AD1853. I've read other evaluations from other designers that came to the same conclusion. I believe they felt that the switched-capacitor filters are the reason.

The AKM Evaluation PCB is made for performance measurements, not sonic evaluation. You need to replace all the components around the DAC and completely bypass the Op Amp analog conditioning stage which is capacitor coupled at the input and the output. Discrete or Hybrid analog stage DC coupled to the AKM DAC is essential. Even the way it is, the 1 KHz FFT plot shows the second harmonic higher than the third, unlike any other DAC in current existence. So much for musicality!

Quote from: audioengr on 2 Dec 2006, 06:48 am

Sounds like a fair price for the features you have in it.

Thank you Steve!

Regards,
Alex

I went back to my fixture and I realized that the D/A chip was an older version, the AK4394. I guess I have not heard the AK4396 yet. Sorry for the knee-jerk reaction.

Maybe we should re-try our shootout at CES. Will you have your new DAC there?

I would like to see if my Spoiler is worth the extra money.

Steve N.

shokunin · « **Reply #18 on:** 2 Dec 2006, 05:10 pm »

Quote from: audioengr on 1 Dec 2006, 06:47 am

I have put a lot more into the spoiler, so it costs me $4000 to make one. I plan to sell it through dealers and distributors, so they need some margin. Also need some wiggle room for discounting. Besides, it will bury most DAC's on the planet. It is truly the best DAC I have heard. Easily beats the Cryo treated Dodson 218 at $8K for instance.

Steve N.

Woah... will you have audition units of your dac steve? The dodson 218 is an incredible DAC and would to hear your new one if it betters the Dodson.

Glenn

audioengr · « **Reply #19 on:** 2 Dec 2006, 05:30 pm »

Quote from: shokunin on 2 Dec 2006, 05:10 pm

Quote from: audioengr on 1 Dec 2006, 06:47 am

I have put a lot more into the spoiler, so it costs me $4000 to make one. I plan to sell it through dealers and distributors, so they need some margin. Also need some wiggle room for discounting. Besides, it will bury most DAC's on the planet. It is truly the best DAC I have heard. Easily beats the Cryo treated Dodson 218 at $8K for instance.

Steve N.

Woah... will you have audition units of your dac steve? The dodson 218 is an incredible DAC and would to hear your new one if it betters the Dodson.

Audition unit? I doubt it. I wil probably barely have time to start building them in numbers once I return from CES.

I just Modified a 218 with Cryo for a customer. Very nice indeed, but I was happy to find that even my modded P-3A sounded better than the stock 218 to me. The mods are pretty spendy for th eP-3A, so I'm happy to see that it's worth the money.

steve N.