Bryston's DACs

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james_dmi

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Bryston's DACs
« on: 9 Oct 2006, 12:48 pm »
Background:

I have become very interested in what Bryston are doing with digital electronics. They are releasing products that allow almost any configuration of where a DAC goes in the music chain. They soon will have the option of having your DAC in your CD player, in-between the CD player and the pre amp, in the pre-amp or in a processor sitting after the surround sound processor. This is great flexibility and very useful no matter what configuration you currently have.

I have always believed that if a signal is stored in the digital domain then its best it stays that way for as long as possible before being converted. There are two caveats to this, One that  processing is done at a much greater resolution then the output so that no artefacts are introduced and Two that the output stage and DACs should be isolated from any electrical noise introduced by said processing. Another reason for me to put the DACs as far down the chain as possible is for performance / cost benefit. If you put them after the source switching then you only need one DAC per channel for the whole system meaning you can spend more money on them and you get the benefit for every source. I think Bryston is a company that understands this better then most.

With this in mind the component that interests me most is the PB26 (with DAC) or SP2. Even though I am currently 2 channel, I would probably still go for the SP2 because I will get remote source switching and the possibility to go multi-channel later. But now there are a few more options with external DACS and CD players, and they have specifications that have me a little confused……

Questions:

Bryston CDP:
The specifications for the new Bryston CDP has switchable sample rates of 44.1 (red book) and 88.2. Does this mean the CDP is up-sampling the data stream? And if so does the DAC have two sets of high-pass filters one for each rate? As I understand it the benefit of up-sampling is that you can move the audible effects of the high-pass filter out of the audio band.


Bryston External DAC:
The next thing that has me confused is the specification of the DAC which has PCM stereo playback of (22-216KHz/ 24bit) Does this refer to the input data rates or is this the operating modes of the DAC? If it can operate at this range of frequencies would that not mean you would need a whole range of output high pass filter circuits? Or Does this mean that the DAC operates at the Highest rate and that all lower rates are up-sampled to 216KHz / 24Bit. If this is the case then this sounds like it’s technically the best DAC on the planet and I want one tomorrow! Another question I have on this product is what sort of data re-clocking is going on? I have read in several places that outboard DACs can suffer from excessive jitter due to timing differences in the clocks form the source to DAC. This can be solved using buffering and re-clocking the data using the DACs local clock. Is this what is happening in the DAC?

Existing Bryston Digital Pre-Amps:
From the specifications of the CDP and DAC I have guessed that some sort of up-sampling may be present. However nothing in the specification of the SP2 and BP26 (digital) suggests that the same tech is used in these devices. Is this the case? And if so will there be any plans to release upgraded DAC boards for these in the future? My ideal product would be the SP2 with up-sampling to high data rates for redbook audio + compatibility with the digital outputs of new formats like HD-DVD and Blueray (up-sampling as necessary) and PC connectivity for music servers (again up-sampling as necessary) For me up-sampling in CD players has been the single biggest advance in that format since it came out. I had previously found CD to sound pinched in the treble like its being forced with a slightly metallic sound. Up-sampling seems to free up the top end and gives it a much more natural flowing quality. I believe this is down to the simpler high pass filters. I would really like to hear this in combination with Bryston’s obvious talents in creating amplified circuits

Any answers much appreciated,

James

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston's DACs
« Reply #1 on: 10 Oct 2006, 02:07 pm »
HI James,

This link to a Bryston Newsletter is probably the best explanation of what we do with our PCM Stereo DAC's - including the new CD Player and Outboard DAC we are currently working on.
http://www.bryston.ca/newsletters/83_files/vol8is3.html

I will check on your first question with engineering "(does the DAC have two sets of high-pass filters one for each rate)"

The SP2 digital board does not upsample or oversample as it is specialized for DD and DTS etc.surround modes.  As you can see from the recent reviews though the internal PCM DAC performance in the SP2 is excellent. A lot of that has to do with using the Bryston discrete Class A output section for all amplification after the digital board.

james


james_dmi

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Re: Bryston's DACs
« Reply #2 on: 10 Oct 2006, 05:53 pm »
Hi James,

Thanks for the link a very informative and interesting read. So I surmise that for listening to CD I would be better of with a BP25 /26 then the SP2 due to the up-sampling.

The info in the newsletter pertained to the BP25 is the DAC board in the BP26 identical?

Also where does the upcoming external DAC fit in. It seems that must be sample rate converting (probably both up and down sampling) to handle the multiple data rates. The question is what rate does it convert to for the DAC?
With its ability to input high rate 24Bit data is there any way this could be connected to a HD DVD player, can the sp-dif support these higher data rates?


Many thanks,

James

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston's DACs
« Reply #3 on: 10 Oct 2006, 06:14 pm »
Hi James,

Thanks for the link a very informative and interesting read. So I surmise that for listening to CD I would be better of with a BP25 /26 then the SP2 due to the up-sampling.

The info in the newsletter pertained to the BP25 is the DAC board in the BP26 identical?

Also where does the upcoming external DAC fit in. It seems that must be sample rate converting (probably both up and down sampling) to handle the multiple data rates. The question is what rate does it convert to for the DAC?
With its ability to input high rate 24Bit data is there any way this could be connected to a HD DVD player, can the sp-dif support these higher data rates?


Many thanks,

James



Yes the DAC in the BP 26 is identical.
Check on the rest for you.

james

james_dmi

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Re: Bryston's DACs
« Reply #4 on: 11 Oct 2006, 02:06 pm »
Thanks for looking up that information for me I look forward to your reply.

I have another question regarding the BP26DA. What would your opinion be on using it with a digital switcher like http://www.inday.com/da4x/da4x.htm?

This looks like it would allow me to remote switch between my CD player (Co-axial & optical), TV set top box (optical out only), and DVD player (optical out only) into the coaxial digital input. My main concern would be any quality loss this could introduce due to jitter. I know your input processing on your DAC can correct for this but will this be enough compensate?

Many thanks,

James

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston's DACs
« Reply #5 on: 11 Oct 2006, 02:13 pm »
Thanks for looking up that information for me I look forward to your reply.

I have another question regarding the BP26DA. What would your opinion be on using it with a digital switcher like http://www.inday.com/da4x/da4x.htm?

This looks like it would allow me to remote switch between my CD player (Co-axial & optical), TV set top box (optical out only), and DVD player (optical out only) into the coaxial digital input. My main concern would be any quality loss this could introduce due to jitter. I know your input processing on your DAC can correct for this but will this be enough compensate?

Many thanks,

James

Hi James,

I have not had any experience with these switchers so I will leave comments to others.

james

james_dmi

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Re: Bryston's DACs
« Reply #6 on: 11 Oct 2006, 03:52 pm »
Maybe someone in your labs could comment? I’m not even sure if these devices would introduce any jitter?

jethro

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Re: Bryston's DACs
« Reply #7 on: 11 Oct 2006, 07:03 pm »
james_dmi,

Assuming the BP-26 has 2 SPDIFs, I would buy an inexpensive DVD player with coax out to replace your CD player and DVD player. Then you will be sure to not lose any quality from your best sources. You're probably stuck with the brand of cable box, so I would buy the unit you suggested and give it a try. I've found the "CD-like quality" music offered by cable companies is  not very CD-like  so a converter in the chain will probably not hurt that much.

HTH.

james_dmi

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Re: Bryston's DACs
« Reply #8 on: 12 Oct 2006, 11:23 am »
To be honest I'm not that worried if there is a slight degradation in audio quality from the two optical sources. I’m sure the benefits of the Bryston DAC over these two inexpensive units will far outweigh any loss. My current DVD player can’t do DVD audio so it’s only films. I’m not doing to invest any serious money on a new format until the current war is over (although I may get one of those HD-DVD add ons for my Xbox 360) I’m thinking that physical mediums are a thing of the past and am looking forward to the day that I can Download everything (films and music) to a media server in nice high-res, and in the case of audio, lossless formats. Then all we need ever worry about is the quality of our DACs amps and speakers.


Anyway back on topic:
The only thing that concerns me right now is any loss from my CD player which can output on the Coaxial. The switcher unit that I linked to claims no data conversion takes place so its probably just an electrical switch for the coaxial line. If this is the case I may well be fine using this. The reason I have asked James is that the guys who designed the multiple optical / coaxial inputs for the SP2 may well have a good insight as to how a device like this would work and whether it could degrade performance.

Phil A

Re: Bryston's DACs
« Reply #9 on: 12 Oct 2006, 01:59 pm »
A couple of thoughts.  There are threads on the board that indicates the way the DACs are implemented in the processor they are not optimized for music in the same manner as the outboard DAC or the DACs in the 2-channel music products.  James Tanner has explained this in detail.  The fact that the DACs are the same DACs does not make them sound equal.  There are many CD players and DVD players that use the same DACs and they sure don't sound identical in my opinion.  I've had numerous transports available (I have 3 systems now and 9 or 10 transports and have had more in the past and borrowed others).  The way the DACs are implemented on the SP 1.7 I have (or the SP2), they are OK but I've had some pretty good CD playback in my system and had a friend who worked at a high end shop and for a 5 yr. period did virtually every delivery/set-up/install with him and as a musis there is nothing to write home about using an external transport with the home theater processor (Bryston or otherwise).  If you have an outboard CD only player (DVD players tend to be optimized for DVD Video and generally will do stuff like use the 48kHz video bitstream to approximate 44.1 PCM from CDs) try the CD player with both digital and analog connections (making sure to use a SPL meter to adjust for different output levels from digital to analog).  I have a Sony 2000ES CD/SACD changer in the bedroom system.  It has been connected to the main system as part of many listening comparisons I've done with my stuff and stuff that my friends have and the sound it produces on CDs on an analog connection to the SP1.7 vs. a digital connection is no contest.  It is certainly not horrible with a digital connection but it is nowhere in the league of what it does via analog and it is certainly not an audiophile quality CD only player.

Phil A

Re: Bryston's DACs
« Reply #10 on: 12 Oct 2006, 02:05 pm »
To be honest I'm not that worried if there is a slight degradation in audio quality from the two optical sources. I’m sure the benefits of the Bryston DAC over these two inexpensive units will far outweigh any loss. My current DVD player can’t do DVD audio so it’s only films. I’m not doing to invest any serious money on a new format until the current war is over (although I may get one of those HD-DVD add ons for my Xbox 360) I’m thinking that physical mediums are a thing of the past and am looking forward to the day that I can Download everything (films and music) to a media server in nice high-res, and in the case of audio, lossless formats. Then all we need ever worry about is the quality of our DACs amps and speakers.


Anyway back on topic:
The only thing that concerns me right now is any loss from my CD player which can output on the Coaxial. The switcher unit that I linked to claims no data conversion takes place so its probably just an electrical switch for the coaxial line. If this is the case I may well be fine using this. The reason I have asked James is that the guys who designed the multiple optical / coaxial inputs for the SP2 may well have a good insight as to how a device like this would work and whether it could degrade performance.


PS - I've also helped others set-up things with one of those coaxial 75 ohm A/B switchers (primarily designed for video - e.g. antenna, cable, etc.) both the $8-10 variety manual ones and the $20-30 remote controlled ones.  The switchers of course have 'F' connectors vs. RCAs and I made cables up for them that go from RCA to 'F' and then back again.  They were primarly using them for HT rec'rs where they did not have enough digital inputs.  I noticed no degradation of the sound in their systems from using such devices.  The caveat being is that these were set-up and designed for HT use and while it did not degrade the music playback ability of these systems, they were not all that great to begin with.

james_dmi

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Re: Bryston's DACs
« Reply #11 on: 13 Oct 2006, 01:43 pm »
Hi Phil

Yep I had already gathered that the BP26DA was the way to go rather then the SP2 for stereo. It’s a shame as this will shut the door for any future muti-channel upgrade (due to lack of pass through) and I wont be able to remote source switch. But then quality is the top priority.

You say that you don’t think the DACs in the SP1.7 (same as the SP2 I think) compare favourably with CD player dacs? This is a little worrying because I got the impression that although not quite as good as the BP26 these were still considered to be very good DACs. The whole point of me getting the BP26DA is to upgrade the source and pre-amp in one step, both of which are now outmatched by the rest of my system:

CD: Arcam fmj CD33
Pre: Arcam fmj C30
Amps: 2 * Bryston 4B-SSTs (Bi-amp)
Speakers: B&W 802Ds

The fmj CD33 is an up-sampling (192Hhz 24Bit) player with four Wolfson WM 8740 DACs per channel (Running as 2 parallel sets of differential DACs) which supposedly minimises any errors in the DACs. While not in the same class as World Class high end products this is still quite a capable player. What sort of players were you comparing the SP1.7 to? And do you have experience of the performance difference with the BP26DA?

The external DAC still interests me and I will await further details from James Tanner before I make any decision. But then of course I will still need to get a pre-amp

As for the switcher if do get one of these it will need to also support optical inputs for my TV and Xbox 360 (DVD player)

Cheers,
James

Phil A

Re: Bryston's DACs
« Reply #12 on: 13 Oct 2006, 07:03 pm »
James, as I noted it is not that the DACs themselves don't compare, it is how they are implemented.  Below is a small sample of answers given by James Tanner:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=22404.10

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=22404.30

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=22404.60

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=22404.140

"No the SP2's digital board is optimized for Surround and there is no reclocking. The analog pass-through is the same as the BP26.

The thing to remember about ALL our DAC's including the SP2 is that the feature that sets them apart is the Class A Discrete output amplifiers after the DAC. The excellent sound quality has much more to do with that than the reclocking at the input.

The other option you would have Corbin is that we will be coming out with an outboard STEREO DAC in about 2 months and you could use that with the SP2 in Bypass if you wanted.

james"

Basically as I understand it is that the implementation of the DACs are designed for movie surround sound.  James Tanner in the above quote indicated that and addressed the fact that if high end 2-channel sound is what is wanted the way to go would be the outboard DAC and the processor in bypass mode.  I also noted I have lots of transports around and have borrowed and owned a variety of excellent CD players as well as have been involved in numerous set-ups/deliveries of high end stuff.  Everyone has different tastes and standards.  I don't consider the sound I get thru a digital connection to be particularly good as compared to a good CD player or an outboard DAC (I currently have one).

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston's DACs
« Reply #13 on: 15 Oct 2006, 02:31 pm »
Hi All,

Thought I would re-post this white paper on Brystons DAC design philosophy.


BRYSTON BP26 DAC PHILOSOPHY

One way to understand the Bryston DAC is to follow the flow of a signal from when it gets to the BP-26DA in digital form to when it leaves to drive an amplifier. This article describes both what is important in providing an output signal of the greatest fidelity and how Bryston succeeds in this effort.
The digital signal first arrives at the BP-26DA via an RCA connector in standard SPDIF form. This is the normal digital output from a CD player. There are two SPDIF inputs which are selected by a front panel switch. This digital signal contains data at over 1 million bits per second which requires a bandwidth of 5 to 10 million hertz (cycles per second). At these high frequencies it is very important to maintain the quality of the signal by having the correct termination at the SPDIF inputs. Bryston provides this termination in the best manner using high quality devices call impedance matching transformers. These devices provide the best possible interface to the line under all sorts of signal conditions.
Lesser quality terminations will degrade the signal which will cause increased jitter, for example. Once the digital signal is received in the BP-26DA it goes to a digital interface circuit. In the BP-26DA this function is provide by a Cirrus Logic CS8420. This circuit cleans-up the signal to remove the inaccuracies which were added by the transfer from the signal source (say a CD player) to the BP-26DA. One of the key functions of this circuit is a reduction in digital jitter which was part of the signal which it arrived at the BP-26DA. Jitter is a variation in the timing of the digital signal. Left uncorrected is causes very serious degradation in the ultimate audio output. We’ll see several places where jitter can arise in a DAC processor and how this jitter is either eliminated or better yet, not allowed to arise.
The signal next goes to the up-sampling circuit. This function is provided within the same Cirrus Logic CS8420 described in the previous paragraph. This circuit converts the digital signal from one sample rate and bit depth to another. This process is called up-sampling. In the BP-26DA the sample rate is increased from the 44.1k samples per second sample rate and 16 bits of depth (the CD standard) to 96k samples per second and 24 bits. The new samples are created by a complex mathematical process which develops a new set of data from the existing samples. The added 8 bits are filled with place holder information. This up-sampling process provides a digital signal for later conversion to analog by the actual DAC chip. The up-sampling process doesn’t add any new data to that which came off the CD but it puts the data in a form which can better be used by the DAC as described below.
Many people report improved sound from DAC processors which include this up-sampling process. This many be due to the better processing of the up-sampled signal by the DAC chip. This device was designed for these higher sample rates and bit depths and performs better when they are supplied. There may also be a noise shaping process where noise from the audible spectrum is not being eliminated but it is being shifted up to frequencies above audible limits. An added advantage of this up-sampling process is that a total new clock signal is applied which causes a significant reduction in jitter. Up-sampling can be made to a variety of new sample rates. Bryston has found that while higher sample rates can be used, such as 192 kHz or even 384 kHz, there are penalties in noise, jitter sensitivity and distortion which outweigh any added benefits from these higher rates vs. 96 kHz
The DAC integrated circuit (chip) provides the conversion of the digital signal to the analog domain. The chip used in the BP-26DA is the Crystal CS43122. Due to the requirements of the conversion process, this chip and every other DAC chip, applies a digital filter to the signal before the conversion to analog and an analog filter after the conversion process. Due to the previous up-sampling process these filters have their effects far above the audio range. Without up-sampling, the filters would affect frequencies of 20 kHz or perhaps even lower with associated level and phase changes.
The CS43122 is a hybrid multi-bit delta-sigma DAC. This is a rather tongue-twisting description which essentially means that it is an advanced generation chip which uses several methods to optimize the conversion process. This DAC uses a process similar to the previous up-sampling process where it over-samples 8x times. This again allows for filters which are out of the audible range. The output of this process is a sensitive analog signal. The timing of this process is very closely controlled by a low jitter clock.
In the implementation of the DAC we see some of the real benefits of Bryston expertise. The DAC chip requires a very clean digital power supply if it is to function at its optimum. Noise on the digital supply may cause added jitter, noise and distortion. Incorrect board routing of the digital power supply or ground may introduce digital noise into the analog circuits.
This digital power supply is provided from a separate closely regulated and filtered source. The DAC also requires a high quality analog power source. The analog signal is at its lowest magnitude in and coming out of the DAC so any added noise or distortion will be greatly amplified by later stages. Again a separate, heavily regulated and filtered power supply with carefully routed grounds is provided. This sort of care with the power supplies is one of the reasons for the superior sound of BP-26DA. Here is an example of a potential problem: if a digital trace, signal or power, is routed a layer above or below an analog trace it can induce noise via capacitive coupling. Careful trace routing eliminates these problems and provides the extra dB’s of noise and distortion reduction which separate good from great equipment.
The quality of power in an audiophile class piece of equipment is a key to wonderful performance. The BP-26DA uses an external enclosure for the power transformer and the initial stages of filtering and regulation. This separating of the power transformer from the main electronics reduces the level of induced power line noise, especially 60 Hz and its multiples from the supply. A steel enclosure then helps to make sure that external capacitive, magnetic and EMF noise doesn’t enter sensitive circuits. Additional filtering and regulation then occurs within the BP-26DA.
Once the sensitive analog signal leaves the DAC it is buffered and increased in strength by operational amplifiers (Opamps). These are constructed from discrete devices (transistors, resistors and capacitors) instead of integrated circuits. The use of discrete devices allows the design of a circuit which exactly matches the needs of the DAC and other circuits as implemented in the BP-26DA. Use of integrated circuits always involves comprises since they are designed as general purpose devices. The discrete devices allow Bryston to design and manufacture circuits which exactly meet requirements. Discrete devices allow more powerful outputs from opamps since heat from the output driver transistors is separated from other devices. In an integrated circuit opamp this heat can affect the rest of the circuitry since it is all on one chip. Discrete devices also allow specific matching of important characteristics such as input and output impedance's based on the specific in-circuit requirements. Discrete opamps can also be designed to more closely match their power source which again leads to reduced distortion and noise. The discrete devices can be tested very closely to match tolerances and matched against each other when matching is important to obtaining a desired result. Circuits can and are designed to require closely matched devices for optimum performance. Integrated circuits have large numbers of components on one chip and it is not practical to do more than high-level sorting of device characteristics. Bryston does sorting and grading with its DAC chips but can do a much finer level with the discrete devices, which leads to better sound quality.
The signal now leaves the DAC board in the BP-26DA and is introduced in to the remainder of the analog circuitry in the BP-26DA including the laser trimmed ALPS volume control and further high-quality discrete opamps. Touches as small as custom made, gold-plated output jacks, leave no missed opportunities of optimum quality.“


james







james_dmi

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Re: Bryston's DACs
« Reply #14 on: 15 Oct 2006, 07:37 pm »
Thanks for all the information.

I think the best thing would be for me to wait for the DAC to come out and re-assess the situation then. I’m very much hoping that there will be some way of remotely selecting all the different inputs on the DAC. And preying that maybe Bryston will then combine the DAC into a new pre amp (BP27DA) which will also include a pass-through for muti-channel compatibility. I’m not in a hurry and I am happy to wait till next year.

I will keep checking back here to see if any more details on the DAC materialise.

Cheers,

James

Jon L

Re: Bryston's DACs
« Reply #15 on: 15 Oct 2006, 07:41 pm »
James, could you expand a little more on the use of Crystal CS43122 DAC chip vs. others?  Crystal CS4398 seems to be the latest chip most often used, as well as AD1852, not to mention PCM1704.  AKM AK4396 also comes to mind. Is there any particular reason for choosing one over others, or does it not matter at this level?

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston's DACs
« Reply #16 on: 15 Oct 2006, 08:06 pm »
James, could you expand a little more on the use of Crystal CS43122 DAC chip vs. others?  Crystal CS4398 seems to be the latest chip most often used, as well as AD1852, not to mention PCM1704.  AKM AK4396 also comes to mind. Is there any particular reason for choosing one over others, or does it not matter at this level?

We found that most of the DAC chips we tested were very close in performance. What was a bit of a surprise was that the reclocking ossilator on the input of the DAC needed to be hand picked for best performance.

james


Phil A

Re: Bryston's DACs
« Reply #17 on: 15 Oct 2006, 08:18 pm »

I think the best thing would be for me to wait for the DAC to come out and re-assess the situation then. I’m very much hoping that there will be some way of remotely selecting all the different inputs on the DAC. And preying that maybe Bryston will then combine the DAC into a new pre amp (BP27DA) which will also include a pass-through for muti-channel compatibility. I’m not in a hurry and I am happy to wait till next year.



That would indeed be wonderful.  I have not rushed to upgrade my SP 1.7 and will wait until the HDMI issue gets settled.  By then I'll be overdue for a projector upgrade anyway.  That sure would allow those of us who really love 2-channel to go out and get something in a rec'r that is not horrible as a preamp for the rest of the channels, have our Bryston amplification, and be able to pick up something in a rec'r that does basic video switching as well.  I'd be all over that in a minute rushing down to my local dealer to be among the 1st to get one.

james_dmi

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Re: Bryston's DACs
« Reply #18 on: 17 Oct 2006, 10:10 am »
Ok the lets start a petition for a BP27DA with pass-through (for muti-channel compatibility), new generation DAC with whatever quality enhancements they are planning (as in the one that can accept 192Khz 24Bit+ for DVD audio etc & USB for music servers) and remote switching (even if its only on digital) 
Please, please, please......

James

james_dmi

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Re: Bryston's DACs
« Reply #19 on: 17 Oct 2006, 10:31 am »
James, could you expand a little more on the use of Crystal CS43122 DAC chip vs. others?  Crystal CS4398 seems to be the latest chip most often used, as well as AD1852, not to mention PCM1704.  AKM AK4396 also comes to mind. Is there any particular reason for choosing one over others, or does it not matter at this level?

A page on the different Crystal DACs http://www.cirrus.com/en/products/pro/techs/T2.html

Looks like the CS4398 would add DSD SACD compatibility which would be interesting for the external DAC. Specs wise it has better signal to noise but not as good dynamic range then the older CS433122. I think the point has been made that for sound quality the analogue and power supply implementation is far more important then the choice of DAC. Interestingly the new DAC has separate power inputs for its different stages so maybe an opportunity fro Bryston to do even more power optimising?

Cheers
James