[LightFire]

........
You don't need "purifiers". The power supply circuitry of your sound system already do it for you.

No, they generally don't, at least not adequately. Your lack of empirical curiosity is appalling. Like Athena, your conclusions spring fully formed from your head. But sadly, you are no Zeus. Are you skirvis is disguise? If wishes were fishes......


To everyone else -

I heard a PS Audio Duet Power Center yesterday -
http://www.psaudio.com/products/duet_power_center.asp
Its $100 dollars off this month @$299. Its really quite impressive, and will run a whole system (though possibly not a 250wpc+ amp). The conditioners I build are (IMO) better, but if I sold them, they'd be more expensive.
Take one home making sure you've a return privilege. If you don't hear an improvement, or feel the improvement isn't worth it, return it. Heck, you may have pristine mains power. Or you may have perfect components just like LightFire.

But please, please, form your opinions by actually listening and evaluating, rather than pulling your conclusions out your arse.

FWIW,
Paul

I am no zeus and no idiot either.
The only power "purifier" you will ever need is a surge protector power bar. You should be able to buy a good one at a maximum of US$ 100.00. It will protect your equipment but not improve your sound (the expensive purifier will not improve your sound either). And please note any listening test to be valid has to be a double blind ABX.

Now if you are full of empirical BS like Occam you could go ahead,  pull a bucket of money out your arse like he does and buy some audio cosmetics to see how cool they look.

Do your research, use your brains. This is a good article to start:

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/cwo/Sample_Articles/

[bprice2]

If clean power is just a bunch of B.S., then can someone explain why the folks on the following list spend their money with Equi=Tech?

http://www.equitech.com/ourclients/someclients.html

[Occam]

LightFire,

The one thing I've not heard from you is that you've tried whatever specific powerconditioner, and you've found it wanting. But you can't be bothered to actually listen, because its far easier to let 'The Audio Critic' do your thinking for you. You can't be bothered to actually listen to the products from Equitech, BPT, PSAudio as you already have a complete audio theory of all things.

No, I've not done DBT, but have done repeated SBT. Very similar to the experiments described by many of the naysayers, save for the fact that I actually switch the components not under test FULLY out of the circuit. I also build things. And JoshK and Tianguis can tell you that I'm rather fond of dpdt (center off) switches for on the fly SBTs on parallel components. Many conditioners are detrimental, or just plain mediocre. I mentioned the new PSAudio Duet (I've not been impressed with previous PSAudio power products), because (at least here in the Nasty Apple) its effect wasn't a minor improvement, but a massive one, apparent to all. No doubt you'd also say that the universal agreement on the positive effects of running components through PhilNYC's Audience Adept rather than through just his dedicated lines on many different occasions is mass hysteria.

Now if you are full of empirical BS like Occam you could go ahead,  pull a bucket of money out your arse like he does and buy some audio cosmetics to see how cool they look.

Folks hereabouts know that I build my own powerconditioners. As cumbersome and bulky as they may be, others who've built them also must be delusional as they seem to think they offer worthwhile improvements.

'Empirical BS'?????
I've allways thought that's the way science and engineering is supposed to be done. We simply disagree over metrics. THAT BS has held me in good stead in my vocations; starting with it being pounded into me by a Nobel Laureate as his technician at Hopkins Medical School.

I certainly never referred to you, or even thought of you as an idiot. You seem quite functional and articulate. Me thinks you dost protest too much.

EDIT No, I certainly don't think you an idiot. Rather, you are simply a troll. Your name says it all. You get your jollies by causing conflict, by 'lighting fires'. Your posts are obviously geared to do so. I think your posts are not based on personal experience. Its far easier to swallow someone else's credo, rather than actually coming to your own conclusions by actually conducting your own experiments. You simply post drivel from the AudioCritic and try to pass it off as your own. Your posts are derivative and boring, lacking any originality of thought.
Your reference to 'empirical BS' only confirms your lack of education, either practical or formal.

[Steve Eddy]

If clean power is just a bunch of B.S., then can someone explain why the folks on the following list spend their money with Equi=Tech?

Well, Equi=Tech isn't so much about "clean power" as they are about "balanced power" which in itself does nothing to clean up junk on the AC mains but rather addresses the problem of equipment chassis leakage currents on the AC safety ground lead.

se

[jneutron]

The only power "purifier" you will ever need is a surge protector power bar.

Ah.  Then, that must be one of those "widgets" that suppresses any and all ground loop currents formed by flux trapped within the ground loop, so that the input node is always zero referred to all source chassis...

Oops, waittaminute..your widget only absorbs transients, no?  How do you account for Faraday's law of induction at the input end??

 

Do your research, use your brains. This is a good article to start:

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/cwo/Sample_Articles/

I did, and I used my own brains (for a change)....Peter's article is so full of holes that the only beings who like it also understand the cosmic meaning of the number   "42".

Cheers, John

[Occam]

Well, Equi=Tech isn't so much about "clean power" as they are about "balanced power" which in itself does nothing to clean up junk on the AC mains but rather addresses the problem of equipment chassis leakage currents on the AC safety ground lead.

Steve,

You might actually look inside an Equitech product, and see the grounding lead for the shield between primary and secondary. Or the Corcom filters, or the capacitors.
If you read Glasband's patents, there are about as many claims dealing with differential noise as the cancellation of reactive leakage currents.

And if you believe your ears, a simple switch on a balancing conditioner's secondary center tap will allow you to switch between isolated and technical power so that you can make your own assessment of how much benefit is provided by the balancing and how much from other noise attenuation.

FWIW,
Paul

[Occam]

.......
Do your research, use your brains. This is a good article to start:

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/cwo/Sample_Articles/

It would be a good idea if the AudioCritic updated their twaddle -

8. Conditioner Lie
Just about all that needs to be said on this subject has been said by Bryston in
their owner’s manuals:“All Bryston amplifiers contain high-quality, dedicated circuitry in the power supplies to reject RF, line spikes and other power-line problems. Bryston power amplifiers do not require specialized power line conditioners. Plug the amplifier directly into its own wall socket.”
What they don’t say is that the same is true, more or less, of all well-designed amplifiers. They may not all be the Brystons’
equal in regulation and PSRR, but if they are any good they can be plugged directly into a wall socket. If you can afford a fancy power conditioner you can also afford a well-designed amplifier, in which case you don’t need the fancy power conditioner. It will do absolutely
nothing for you. (Please note that we aren’t talking about surge-protected power strips for computer equipment.

Sounds great save for the fact that Brystron has changed their position -
http://www.bryston.ca/
Bottom left, 'Torus Power    Power Conditioner'
and it might be that Bryston has cynically identified a market opportunity, or it may be that they actually listened......

LightFire - You might ask Mr. Tanner on the Bryston board here on AudioCircle why he has foresaken your deeply held beliefs.
Could you do us all a favor? Rather than regurgitate exactly what is in the AudioCritic, save your typing efforts and just give us the specific number of your well reasoned conclusions.

Regards,
Paul

[Spirit]

Folks hereabouts know that I build my own powerconditioners. As cumbersome and bulky as they may be, others who've built them also must be delusional as they seem to think they offer worthwhile improvements.

Occam:
Can you recommend an AC device that is commericlally available that will do the following:
a: not break the bank.
b: purify and protect
c: make more than a miniscule sound difference.

[Spirit]

.......
Do your research, use your brains. This is a good article to start:

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/cwo/Sample_Articles/

It would be a good idea if the AudioCritic updated their twaddle -

8. Conditioner Lie
Just about all that needs to be said on this subject has been said by Bryston in
their owner’s manuals:“All Bryston amplifiers contain high-quality, dedicated circuitry in the power supplies to reject RF, line spikes and other power-line problems. Bryston power amplifiers do not require specialized power line conditioners. Plug the amplifier directly into its own wall socket.”
What they don’t say is that the same is true, more or less, of all well-designed amplifiers. They may not all be the Brystons’
equal in regulation and PSRR, but if they are any good they can be plugged directly into a wall socket. If you can afford a fancy power conditioner you can also afford a well-designed amplifier, in which case you don’t need the fancy power conditioner. It will do absolutely
nothing for you. (Please note that we aren’t talking about surge-protected power strips for computer equipment.

Sounds great save for the fact that Brystron has changed their position -
http://www.bryston.ca/
Bottom left, 'Torus Power    Power Conditioner'
and it might be that Bryston has cynically identified a market opportunity, or it may be that they actually listened......

LightFire - You might ask Mr. Tanner on the Bryston board here on AudioCircle why he has foresaken your deeply held beliefs.
Could you do us all a favor? Rather than regurgitate exactly what is in the AudioCritic, save your typing efforts and just give us the specific number of your well reasoned conclusions.

Regards,
Paul

Great point:
I guess the Bryston people have:
a: all of a sudden found a flaw un their internal power supply
or
b: found a way to make more money.
In either case, it makes you wonder, doesn't it?

[Occam]

Spirit,

From the last page -
I heard a PS Audio Duet Power Center yesterday -
http://www.psaudio.com/products/duet_power_center.asp
Its $399 (dang, the $100 off was only for Sept). Its really quite impressive, and will run a whole system,though possibly not a 250wpc+ amp, dunno.
Take one home making sure you've a return privilege. If you don't hear an improvement, or feel the improvement isn't worth it, return it. Heck, you may have pristine mains power. Or you may have perfect components with perfect power supplies.
I've never been overly impressed with the PSAudio UltraOutlets, Power Directors, or UPC units. The Duet is IMO substantially better. I assume the Quintet, a larger version of the Duet, offers similar improvements. Simly put, when inserted into my friends system, in a large elevator condo building, with absolute crap power, everything was mo betta. I've never heard his system sound better, and was IMO, a massive positive change from one components change/addition.

FWIW,
Paul

EDIT - Another alternative might be the APC h15, which is an active powerconditioner, which Bill Gaw thinks is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
http://www.apc.com/products/category.cfm?id=15
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/0806/aachapter82.htm
Actually, the specific product he is swooning over is the APC s15, which is supposed to be the same but with battery backup. Unless you've a video projector with an expensive bulb, the S15 seems overkill, but more importantly, I can't find the S15 discounted on Froogle. I've not heard the H15 or S15, but Scott Faller tells me Bill Gaw knows of what he speaks, even though he seems to find the 'greatest ever' on a monthly basis.
At discount the APC h15 is comparable in price to the PSAudio Duet -
http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=apc+h15&btnG=Search
But I've not heard it, and can't recommend its purchase without a return privledge. Ideally, one might get both the APC s15 and the PSAudio Duet with return privleges and keep either or none, depending on your own evaluation in your own system.

[Steve]

    Something one might ask is if many/large parts are needed for a great conditioner, to really do the job right, is it feasible to incorporate one into each component? Physical limitations, someone could do a better job than another manufactuer etc. It would seem to me that obtaining the best separate conditioner would be the way to go.

[Steve Eddy]

You might actually look inside an Equitech product, and see the grounding lead for the shield between primary and secondary. Or the Corcom filters, or the capacitors.
If you read Glasband's patents, there are about as many claims dealing with differential noise as the cancellation of reactive leakage currents.

Point taken, but electrostatic shielding between the transformer's primary and secondary and Corcom line filters brings nothing new to the table and is rather commonly employed in equipment power supplies already.

What Equi=Tech's bailiwick is, and what they're REALLY trying to sell people on is balanced power. Which as I said in my previous post hasn't so much to do with noise on the AC mains but rather noise caused by chassis leakage currents.

The point of my post was simply that a list of people using Equi=Tech's gear, the primary emphasis of which is balanced power, doesn't necessarily say much with regard to "clean power."

And if you believe your ears, a simple switch on a balancing conditioner's secondary center tap will allow you to switch between isolated and technical power so that you can make your own assessment of how much benefit is provided by the balancing and how much from other noise attenuation.

Personally, the only use I have for AC power anymore is as a convenient means for charging batteries. 



se

[slugworth]

Difference between APC s15 and their other much cheaper smart xl ups products? The s15  does talk about isolated filters. Both however output pure sine wave and regulate voltage. Is this merely a way of charging more for an A/V product? Plan on running DAC and Preamp on just battery power. Anybody else tried this?

[Occam]

Slugworth - I can certainly understand your missing the point that the main interest of many audiophiles is the efficacy of powerconditioning when mains power IS available, as it seems that someone, for unknown nefarious reasons, is stealing the subject from all your sentences.

[woodsyi]

Slugworth - I can certainly understand your missing the point that the main interest of many audiophiles is the efficacy of powerconditioning when mains power IS available, as it seems that someone, for unknown nefarious reasons, is stealing the subject from all your sentences.

Don't you know?  He is an objectivist.  He got rid of the subject. 

[Occam]

Woodsyi, subjectively, I object!

On the nature of listening to ANYBODY's recommendations -
I did a search for reviews of the APC H and S type conditioners.
Along with the previously mentioned Enjoy the Music review -
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/0806/aachapter82.htm
I also found these 3 -
http://www.ultimateavmag.com/accessories/1005apc/
http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/apc_h15.htm
http://www.audaud.com/article.php?ArticleID=1594

The later 3, which basically say the APC products are not the greatest thing since sliced bread, seem to contradict the 1st. All I can say is that the efficacy of power conditioning depends on the quality of your mains as well as the product itself. One should never buy a conditioner unless you've had the opportunity to hear it in your own system, and barring that, without a return privilege.

[Vinnie R.]

Personally, the only use I have for AC power anymore is as a convenient means for charging batteries. 
se

I'm in the same boat as you, SE  aa

[twitch54]

Wiring:

Just go with Signal Cable, Element Cable, or Blue Jean Cable stuff.  These (by audiophile standards, very affordable brands) follow Jon Risch recipes (he moderates the Audio Asylum cable forum and is well respected).  Would more expensive stuff sound different?  (yes); better?  (that's subjective to the ear and equipment involved).  IMO until your system budget exceeds $10k the money is better spent elsewhere (if you're situation is like most, in the room itself).

Conditioning:

Site dependent.  I've heard it make a difference (old light industrial neighborhood), but never where I've lived (50 year old suburb with horrible wiring, 20 year old suburb, new country house).   A friend brought one to the 50 year old house and it barely made a difference to me, the money could be much better spent elsewhere.  Borrow one or take one home on loan and try it.  Before you buy search around here for ideas, there's several low cost options available.

JLM,  Good advise !! I know of nothing in our hobby that stirs the blood like cable and wiring debates !!

[Steve Eddy]

I'm in the same boat as you, SE  aa

Hey Vinnie!

Yeah, one day I just sat down and thought about it all and finally went sane (c.f. Wonko the Sane). 

I mean, you have some people putting in dedicated lines, sometimes using audiophile approved AC wiring, connected to audiophile approve AC outlets, for audiophile approved AC cords to feed a plethora of conditioners, filters, regenerators, etc. in an attempt to achieve a perfect and pristine 120 volt, 60 Hz sinewave (or other depending what country you're in).

And even if one were to achieve this goal, it's worthless on its own as everything, save for some turntable motors, is ultimately powered by DC, not AC.

So now we have to take our perfect and pristine 120 volt, 60 Hz sinewave and chop it up with rectifier diodes which typically feed large reservoir capacitors in order to get something more closely approximating DC. This rectifier/capacitor combination then causes current to be drawn from the line in short haversine pulses which can cause the line to radiate noise, and on top of that, there's the 120 Hz ripple voltage and its associated harmonics which appear across the capacitors, and if we want to get rid of that, we have to start adding voltage regulators and so on. Y'ever see companies actually brag about the huge number of voltage regulators they employ in their designs?

It's madness I tell ya! Madness! 

se

[NewBuyer]

Interesting reading here! So is it likely that power conditioners (not voltage regulators) are just a gimmick, or is it important to filter out the high frequency noise on an AC line? Does the high frequency noise (when present) actually impair audio performance in a measurable (objective) manner?

P.S. I believe Musical Fidelity brags about choke-regulation on several of their products...