Klaus: Please comment if you desire...

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Spirit

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Klaus: Please comment if you desire...
« on: 23 Sep 2006, 03:13 am »
Good evening Klaus:
The following statement is absolutely contrary to the instructions that you offer in you "warm up and Break In" section on your website:

"I really wonder if you guys "burn in" your toaster, coffee pot, dishwasher, garbage disposal, TV set, and computer before using them.  Geeze.

A properly designed audio amplifier needs no "burn in" at all.  This is simply audiophlake nonsense.

All you are doing is wasting energy and if doing it at very high power levels, stress heating all the components, not rationally recommended.

Get real and listen to the music.

Frank Van Alstine"

It is not my intention at all to cause any controversy, but as a consumer and audio hobbyist it is extremely disconcerting when two well respected and knowledgeable audio pros like you and Frank are so far apart on this matter.
By insinuation Frank is pointing at an amplifier brand like the Odyssey as not being 'properly designed' and you, as an 'audiophlake'.
It is quite obvious that there can only be one side that is correct.  Either a piece needs burn-in or it does not. 
It also means that whoever is incorrect obviously does not have proper hearing and is therefore designing a product that the designer can't evaluate properly thus making that product virtually irrelevent.
If you feel like commenting please do - I will also understand if you don't want to get involved.
It's just that this kind of acute contradiction makes me as a consumer so leary.

Zero

Re: Klaus: Please comment if you desire...
« Reply #1 on: 23 Sep 2006, 03:52 am »
Don't let things like this get in the way of your journey. If you look hard enough, you will find contrasting opinions in just about every facet of this hobby. Commonly found are; Box speakers versus boxless, solid state versus tube, speaker cable, break in, cd versus vinyl, integrated versus seperates,  and on and on and on...  The only way to sift through the madness is to discover for yourself what you chose as your audio truth.

In relevance to the subject matter, and for what its worth;  I've owned a plentiful amount of speakers and electronics. Some of them have been high-dollar, some of them budget, and some downright big store grade! I've found products in all classes that altered significantly through the course of operation. A number of people that frequent my abode also noticed the differences immediately. On the other hand, I have found a number of products in the said classes to where I couldn't tell a lick of difference between the time I took the piece of its box.. and months down the road.

A number of folk could blame it on the weather, my mental state, the time of day and the arrangement of the planets...  whatever the case may be, they are my experiences and thusly, my "truths" Go out and discover what yours are and have fun in the process!

bunky

Re: Klaus: Please comment if you desire...
« Reply #2 on: 23 Sep 2006, 04:21 am »
Good evening Klaus:
The following statement is absolutely contrary to the instructions that you offer in you "warm up and Break In" section on your website:

"I really wonder if you guys "burn in" your toaster, coffee pot, dishwasher, garbage disposal, TV set, and computer before using them.  Geeze.

A properly designed audio amplifier needs no "burn in" at all.  This is simply audiophlake nonsense.

All you are doing is wasting energy and if doing it at very high power levels, stress heating all the components, not rationally recommended.

Get real and listen to the music.

Frank Van Alstine"

It is not my intention at all to cause any controversy, but as a consumer and audio hobbyist it is extremely disconcerting when two well respected and knowledgeable audio pros like you and Frank are so far apart on this matter.
By insinuation Frank is pointing at an amplifier brand like the Odyssey as not being 'properly designed' and you, as an 'audiophlake'.
It is quite obvious that there can only be one side that is correct.  Either a piece needs burn-in or it does not. 
It also means that whoever is incorrect obviously does not have proper hearing and is therefore designing a product that the designer can't evaluate properly thus making that product virtually irrelevent.
If you feel like commenting please do - I will also understand if you don't want to get involved.
It's just that this kind of acute contradiction makes me as a consumer so leary.

I obviously cant speak for Klaus but if you have never noticed life is full of contradictions. i think there are two schools of thought regarding burn in. Frank Van Alstine is an electrical Engineer who happens to feel that burn in does not exist. although i respect his opinion on this topic i also respectfully disagree with his view on this subject.Frank Van Alstine also thinks that there are no differences in aftermarket Audio cables. once again i respect his opinion but respectfully disagree with it.i think it is pretty Fuc#ed up for you to come into what amounts to someones place of business with the obvious intent to stir the pot. i know for a fact that Frank Van Alstine would not approve of it or condone it.you claim it is not your intent to start any controversy but you are obviously trying to do just that.you posted earlier that you were a new Odyssey customer from Toronto and wished to meet with Klaus at the rocky mountain audiofest. i would pay good money to see that meeting.  a moderator should ban you for this stupid Bullshit!get a life Spirit. WCW III
« Last Edit: 23 Sep 2006, 04:43 am by bunky »

lonewolfny42

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Re: Klaus: Please comment if you desire...
« Reply #3 on: 23 Sep 2006, 04:38 am »
bunky....Kind of harsh there at the end of your post.... :o

As for burn'in advice....Spirit , follow what the instructions say...Klaus knows his products.
For me....I have heard a difference.....you listen and see if you hear a difference. :thumb:

bunky

Re: Klaus: Please comment if you desire...
« Reply #4 on: 23 Sep 2006, 04:49 am »
bunky....Kind of harsh there at the end of your post.... :o

As for burn'in advice....Spirit , follow what the instructions say...Klaus knows his products.
For me....I have heard a difference.....you listen and see if you hear a difference. :thumb:
sorry lonewolfny but i was a little bit bent out of shape at that moment.thanks....WCW III

Eduardo AAVM

Re: Klaus: Please comment if you desire...
« Reply #5 on: 23 Sep 2006, 07:27 am »
In video the signal is constant ( no caps need to be charged), an oven or a lamp is honestly a joke trying to elaborate more, is it a joke ?

lonewolfny42

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Re: Klaus: Please comment if you desire...
« Reply #6 on: 23 Sep 2006, 07:54 am »
In video the signal is constant ( no caps need to be charged), an oven or a lamp is honestly a joke trying to elaborate more, is it a joke ?
Oven....lamp....toaster (thats funny)...was all a joke by nathanm...but I really like the toaster burn in....maybe a little darker....with some jelly....strawberry. :lol:

Spirit

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Re: Klaus: Please comment if you desire...
« Reply #7 on: 23 Sep 2006, 10:10 am »
i think it is pretty Fuc#ed up for you to come into what amounts to someones place of business with the obvious intent to stir the pot. i know for a fact that Frank Van Alstine would not approve of it or condone it.you claim it is not your intent to start any controversy but you are obviously trying to do just that.you posted earlier that you were a new Odyssey customer from Toronto and wished to meet with Klaus at the rocky mountain audiofest. i would pay good money to see that meeting.  a moderator should ban you for this stupid Bullshit!get a life Spirit. WCW III
Bunky:
Give me a break!
I have no intention of stirring anybody's pot.
Mr Van Alstine makes a public statement on a public forum - I have every right to ask for a comment. 
As I mentioned, Klaus is free to respond if he chooses.
Instead of paying good money to see me meet Klaus at the RMAF, which BTW I am really looking forward too, why
don't you instead take that money and send it to your favourite charity.  My meeting Klaus is greatly anticipated on my part, but hardly earth shattering for anyone to witness.
As for a moderator banning me - for what reason?  I asked for an opinion about 2 differing opinions.  I didn't use foul language like you did, and this is an open forum. 
As for me getting a life - I have.  My life is quite wonderful, thank you.

bunky

Re: Klaus: Please comment if you desire...
« Reply #8 on: 23 Sep 2006, 01:03 pm »
i think it is pretty Fuc#ed up for you to come into what amounts to someones place of business with the obvious intent to stir the pot. i know for a fact that Frank Van Alstine would not approve of it or condone it.you claim it is not your intent to start any controversy but you are obviously trying to do just that.you posted earlier that you were a new Odyssey customer from Toronto and wished to meet with Klaus at the rocky mountain audiofest. i would pay good money to see that meeting.  a moderator should ban you for this stupid Bullshit!get a life Spirit. WCW III
Bunky:
Give me a break!
I have no intention of stirring anybody's pot.
Mr Van Alstine makes a public statement on a public forum - I have every right to ask for a comment. 
As I mentioned, Klaus is free to respond if he chooses.
Instead of paying good money to see me meet Klaus at the RMAF, which BTW I am really looking forward too, why
don't you instead take that money and send it to your favourite charity.  My meeting Klaus is greatly anticipated on my part, but hardly earth shattering for anyone to witness.
As for a moderator banning me - for what reason?  I asked for an opinion about 2 differing opinions.  I didn't use foul language like you did, and this is an open forum. 
As for me getting a life - I have.  My life is quite wonderful, thank you.
i am not normaly in the habit of using foul language on the audiocircles or any of the other audio forums that i belong to and i regret my choice of words, but i was so angry that you would choose the Odyssey circle to in effect throw down the gauntlet that i was a little over the top with my response. that being said, in my view based on my personal audio journey burn in does take place on some components but not all of them.you should not have used the Odyssey forum to post what amounts to a challenge to Klaus Bunge because this circle is part of his place of business. i agree that my choice of language was a bad one on my part,but your post should have been made in a circle other than the Odyssey circle.thanks.... WCW III

TjMV3

Re: Klaus: Please comment if you desire...
« Reply #9 on: 23 Sep 2006, 01:14 pm »
........i think it is pretty Fuc#ed up for you to come into what amounts to someones place of business with the obvious intent to stir the pot. i know for a fact that Frank Van Alstine would not approve of it or condone it.you claim it is not your intent to start any controversy but you are obviously trying to do just that.you posted earlier that you were a new Odyssey customer from Toronto and wished to meet with Klaus at the rocky mountain audiofest. i would pay good money to see that meeting.  a moderator should ban you for this stupid Bullshit!get a life Spirit. WCW III

You know what,  this is a public forum,  not Klaus's living room.  Spirit has the right to ask any question he chooses.

You're doing a gross diservice to the musiclovers involved in this hobby.  This forum should not be a refuge were only content Odyssey Audio customers could gahter to play slapass and hand-job each other.

Every manufactor,  even the ones who charge ridiculously high amounts of money (think the price a new home) run into problems with their gear.  That's the nature of the science behind audio gear.

A few months ago I sat back and read the forum,  as someone posted some link to reviews of the Tempest which expressed unfavorable and negative experiences with the pre amp;  and a majority of the guys here circled the wagons,  dissmissed any validity or truth and slammed the guy who posted the link.    I was disgusted by the narrow-minded and self-serving arrogance of some of these people.  

It was dispicable that anyone could automatically assume because they had a positive experience and no functional problems with their Tempest,  that there was not even a remote possibility that another customer (or several customers as in this case )  may have in fact had a defective piece of gear and had nothing but problems in trying to sort it out with Klaus.   The possibility was completely ignored as people grasped at straws and reached for justifications and mindless selective reasoning to discredit the guy who posted the link and the negative reviews of the Tempest.

Sadly,  I knew from my own experience that 99% of what those reviews (and posters ) claimed was fact.  I knew this because I ran into many of the same problems detailed in the reviews.  And it was a major pain in the butt,  a major inconvienance and a major headache trying to get it sorted out.   To tell you the truth,  it was shocking how many PMs and e-mails I was receiving from other Tempest owners who were running into the same problems and were reaching out to communicate with other Tempest owners.  This was rather widespread and not quite so isolated.

 Even more surprising was that I was receiving these PMs not only here,  but on other audio forums where I had discussed or mentioned I owned the Tempest.

Klaus for the most part makes and sells excellent gear.  But when there is a problem it should not be swept under the rug,  ignored or defended by Odyssey Audio gear owners and treated as if everyone else is lying.   In my opinion it is far more productive and efficient to address the problem immediately and find a solution.  Rather than attacking customers who paid good, hard earned money for a product which was completely messed up.

I completely understand people defending their gear choices and expressing their love and satisfaction of their gear.  I do that too.  

But there's a significant difference between expressing love and satisfaction of one's gear,  and behaving like a complete homer who defends anything and everything related to the gear and manufactor,  without ever considering the possibility that there may in fact be a problem with the gear.  Just because yours works great,  doesn't mean everyone else is experiencing the same thing.  

Ultimately,  you are only misleading new Odyssey Audio customers and turning-off potential new customers who usually immediately recognize the homer mentality (circling of the wagons),   become wary and distrustfull of the information on this forum and of trying Odyssey Audio gear at all.   The one's who do purchase and end up with a dud,   get a bad taste in their mouth and wash their hands of Odyssey gear all together.  

Without a doubt your reaction to Spirit's post was a gross,  unfair over-reaction.  Nothing in his post remotely warranted such a response.  

WEEZ

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Re: Klaus: Please comment if you desire...
« Reply #10 on: 23 Sep 2006, 01:35 pm »
..ahem...on the subject of burn-in; and differing opinions; consider that Frank and Klaus may both be correct concerning their own gear and burn-in.

I've owned amps that settled very quickly; like maybe a few hours. My present amp took several weeks. And I'm not the only one who heard the changes. (they were for the better, btw).

It's a non-issue. A few days; a few weeks; who cares?

WEEZ

Spirit

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Re: Klaus: Please comment if you desire...
« Reply #11 on: 23 Sep 2006, 01:40 pm »
Without a doubt your reaction to Spirit's post was a gross,  unfair over-reaction.  Nothing in his post remotely warranted such a response.  
Thanks TJ
I appreicate your defence of my post.
You know, this is getting really silly and out of hand.
I have recently invested close to $3000.00 with Klaus on new equipment which I should be receiving
in October. He is a great guy to speak to and deal with.  But that had nothing to do with my post.
My post was for my own education and clarification.
So, let me leave names and personalities out of the equation.
Someone answer this question from a scientific perspective:
Do the components that make up an amplifier need time to break in, and can there be a
sonic differnece over time?
There you go - nothing personal to anyone.

TjMV3

Re: Klaus: Please comment if you desire...
« Reply #12 on: 23 Sep 2006, 01:53 pm »
I have recently invested close to $3000.00 with Klaus on new equipment which I should be receiving
in October.

Exactly.

Which makes his over-reaction even more absurd and mindless.

Here you are,  a customer who just invested $3,000 of your hard earned money into Odyssey gear and this guy is attacking you.  Ridiculous.

This is a discussion forum.  NOT a store.

Discussion forums are for discussions.  That means any subject matter involving Odyssey Audio and related audio gear and operational procedures and requirements.

What's the name of this forum?  Odyssey Audio.  Correct?

Interstingly,   Klaus did not name this .......... " The Exclusive Odyssey Audio Forum: Designed and Created For Satisfied,  Happy and Content Customers Only! Only Positive Butt Slapping, High-Fiving,  Reaffirming Topic Content Allowed! "

Nor do I see a Products page,  a Price List, a Shopping Wagon,  a Check Out page or Method Of Payment/ Payment page.   

This is not Klaus' store.  This is a discussion forum.

bunky

Re: Klaus: Please comment if you desire...
« Reply #13 on: 23 Sep 2006, 02:30 pm »
........i think it is pretty Fuc#ed up for you to come into what amounts to someones place of business with the obvious intent to stir the pot. i know for a fact that Frank Van Alstine would not approve of it or condone it.you claim it is not your intent to start any controversy but you are obviously trying to do just that.you posted earlier that you were a new Odyssey customer from Toronto and wished to meet with Klaus at the rocky mountain audiofest. i would pay good money to see that meeting.  a moderator should ban you for this stupid Bullshit!get a life Spirit. WCW III

You know what,  this is a public forum,  not Klaus's living room.  Spirit has the right to ask any question he chooses.

You're doing a gross diservice to the musiclovers involved in this hobby.  This forum should not be a refuge were only content Odyssey Audio customers could gahter to play slapass and hand-job each other.

Every manufactor,  even the ones who charge ridiculously high amounts of money (think the price a new home) run into problems with their gear.  That's the nature of the science behind audio gear.

A few months ago I sat back and read the forum,  as someone posted some link to reviews of the Tempest which expressed unfavorable and negative experiences with the pre amp;  and a majority of the guys here circled the wagons,  dissmissed any validity or truth and slammed the guy who posted the link.    I was disgusted by the narrow-minded and self-serving arrogance of some of these people.  

It was dispicable that anyone could automatically assume because they had a positive experience and no functional problems with their Tempest,  that there was not even a remote possibility that another customer (or several customers as in this case )  may have in fact had a defective piece of gear and had nothing but problems in trying to sort it out with Klaus.   The possibility was completely ignored as people grasped at straws and reached for justifications and mindless selective reasoning to discredit the guy who posted the link and the negative reviews of the Tempest.

Sadly,  I knew from my own experience that 99% of what those reviews (and posters ) claimed was fact.  I knew this because I ran into many of the same problems detailed in the reviews.  And it was a major pain in the butt,  a major inconvienance and a major headache trying to get it sorted out.   To tell you the truth,  it was shocking how many PMs and e-mails I was receiving from other Tempest owners who were running into the same problems and were reaching out to communicate with other Tempest owners.  This was rather widespread and not quite so isolated.

 Even more surprising was that I was receiving these PMs not only here,  but on other audio forums where I had discussed or mentioned I owned the Tempest.

Klaus for the most part makes and sells excellent gear.  But when there is a problem it should not be swept under the rug,  ignored or defended by Odyssey Audio gear owners and treated as if everyone else is lying.   In my opinion it is far more productive and efficient to address the problem immediately and find a solution.  Rather than attacking customers who paid good, hard earned money for a product which was completely messed up.

I completely understand people defending their gear choices and expressing their love and satisfaction of their gear.  I do that too.  

But there's a significant difference between expressing love and satisfaction of one's gear,  and behaving like a complete homer who defends anything and everything related to the gear and manufactor,  without ever considering the possibility that there may in fact be a problem with the gear.  Just because yours works great,  doesn't mean everyone else is experiencing the same thing.  

Ultimately,  you are only misleading new Odyssey Audio customers and turning-off potential new customers who usually immediately recognize the homer mentality (circling of the wagons),   become wary and distrustfull of the information on this forum and of trying Odyssey Audio gear at all.   The one's who do purchase and end up with a dud,   get a bad taste in their mouth and wash their hands of Odyssey gear all together.  

Without a doubt your reaction to Spirit's post was a gross,  unfair over-reaction.  Nothing in his post remotely warranted such a response.  

i admited that i overreacted but i cant change how i feel. i have never swept any problems with Odyssey gear under the rug and as a matter of fact when i had a problem with one of the midbass drivers on one of my Loreleis the first thing i did was post it right here on the Odyssey circle even before i contacted Klaus. the defective driver was replaced A.S.A.P and i was once again a satisfied customer. there were problems with a batch of transformers that were used in some of the Tempests and Klaus has admited it on this forum. i was lucky in the fact that mine did not have this problem.pitting two manufacturers against each other in this case Van Alstine Vs Odyssey  when they both belong to the audio circles while on one of thier forums in my opinion is in very bad taste. i saw the same thing happen before on some of the loudspeaker manufacturers circles and things spiraled out of control and got downright ugly very quickly.my responce to spirits post was out of line because of my poor choice of words. i will strive to refrain from overreacting in the future but of course i am human i am not perfect nor is anyone else who posts here.thanks.... WCW III

woodsyi

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Re: Klaus: Please comment if you desire...
« Reply #14 on: 23 Sep 2006, 03:02 pm »
I agree Bunky over-reacted just a tad bit here, but he is actually a nice guy in person.  I guess we all have bad days some time.  I do agree with Bunky that when it comes to  mentioning manufacturere's names, it is bad form to do it in another manufacturer's circle unless they are collaborating on a project.  It would be better to do so in an appropriate neutral circle if the topic merits mentioning.  God knows I made some mistakes in the past and even had a few thread banned to the Great Waste Bin.  :oops:  We live and learn.  Post a way Spirit and I hope you enjoy your Odyssey gear.
« Last Edit: 23 Sep 2006, 03:40 pm by woodsyi »

TjMV3

Re: Klaus: Please comment if you desire...
« Reply #15 on: 23 Sep 2006, 03:32 pm »
He wasn't pitting anyone against anyone.

He was asking a legitimate question regarding two different theories and practices to "Burn-in". Two different schools of thought.


Personally,  I've noticed little or no real "Burn-in or Break-in " effect with all of my gear, except the Rega Apollo CDP.  I never really believed much in it,  till it happened with the Apollo.  Everything else improved significantly when I addressed and improved the room acoustics. 

I went to great lengths to avoid any kind of psycho-acoustic adaptation/adjustment of my ears,  to the Rega Apollo.  Playing it overnight,  in a seperate room where I only exposed my self to it's sound for one to two minutes at a time,    playing the same song and taking notes.  It was my intention to put the claims of burn-in to the test,  with the Apollo.  I was shocked that there was actually such a thing.

Sure,  all of my gear sounds better after giving it a good 30-45 minutes to warm up (with no music playing) upon Power up.  And that's probably excessive.  But I think 30-45 minutes works well and gives me a comfort zone.

All of my gear improved within the first couple of hours of playing.  I really didn't notice any difference with 99% of my gear,  after several hundred hours of playing.   Much of the improvement came within the first 20-30 hours.

I think room temperature has more to do with speakers warming up correctly,  than anything else.  I find keeping my room at 70-72 degrees helps my speakers sound better.  Then there is the fact that our ears are greatly effected by our sinus pressure,  state of mind and the weather in general. 

But considering the 300-400 hours it took my Rega Apollo to reach it's "Burned-In" phase,  it's obvious some gear will take that long to "Burn-in".  If it can happen with the Apollo,  it can happen with other gear. 

Personally,  I believe the design contributes to the "burn-in" factor.

bunky

Re: Klaus: Please comment if you desire...
« Reply #16 on: 23 Sep 2006, 03:33 pm »
Without a doubt your reaction to Spirit's post was a gross,  unfair over-reaction.  Nothing in his post remotely warranted such a response.  
Thanks TJ
I appreicate your defence of my post.
You know, this is getting really silly and out of hand.
I have recently invested close to $3000.00 with Klaus on new equipment which I should be receiving
in October. He is a great guy to speak to and deal with.  But that had nothing to do with my post.
My post was for my own education and clarification.
So, let me leave names and personalities out of the equation.
Someone answer this question from a scientific perspective:
Do the components that make up an amplifier need time to break in, and can there be a
sonic differnece over time?
There you go - nothing personal to anyone.

Spirit,i was under the impression that you were a troll but in retrospect i may have judged you way too harshly  :duh: i am not a Scientist but it seems to depend on which school of thought that you subscribe to. i have seen Electrical Engineers post during some of the debates over this controversial subject that they did not believe in burn in until at some point they witnessed the phenomena for themselves and some of the other Electrical Engineers are of the opinion that burn in does not and therefore cannot exist.i think that some electrolytic capacitors go through a change over time when power is applied to them whether they are in a preamplifier, amplifier or loudspeaker crossover network and several respected manufacturers such as Sim Audio and Ayre Audio just to name a few have an opinion similar to my own. i am sure that someone who knows alot more than i do about this can shed some more light on this always controversial subject. thanks...WCW III

sts9fan

Re: Klaus: Please comment if you desire...
« Reply #17 on: 23 Sep 2006, 04:00 pm »
I will say that with my odyssey amp I did not hear any short of break-in. Is is because I was sceptical to begin with? Maybe I am not arrogant enough to deny that I am susceptible to the placebo effect. I still love my amp though and have been nothing but thrilled by the Odyssey product.

Doublej

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Re: Klaus: Please comment if you desire...
« Reply #18 on: 23 Sep 2006, 04:12 pm »
TjVM3

I, as likely others, consider the end of the post from Spirit to be clearly pitting Frank against Klaus. (Emphasis is mine)

QUOTE

It is quite obvious that there can only be one side that is correct.  Either a piece needs burn-in or it does not.
It also means that whoever is incorrect obviously does not have proper hearing and is therefore designing a product that the designer can't evaluate properly thus making that product virtually irrelevent.
If you feel like commenting please do - I will also understand if you don't want to get involved.
It's just that this kind of acute contradiction makes me as a consumer so leary.

END QUOTE

JCarney

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Re: Klaus: Please comment if you desire...
« Reply #19 on: 23 Sep 2006, 04:15 pm »
Spirit, my mono extremes sounded very nice right out of the box. But as Klaus states, the more they are left on and used the better they sound. The process is gradual, and at times significant. I cannot give you any scientific explanation, but I can tell you it does take a little time. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the storage devices inside the amp need some time to fully charge, but I may have not have a clue as to what I'm talking about here. I can tell you that you will hear improvements over time, a "settling in" if you will. After about 5 or 6 weeks,YMMV, expect to be surprised one day while listening. A new level of clarity and detail will emerge. There will simply be more of everything, in a good way. I hope this helps, and I also hope you enjoy your new purchase from Klaus as much as I am.

JCarney