[Spirit]

TjVM3

I, as likely others, consider the end of the post from Spirit to be clearly pitting Frank against Klaus. (Emphasis is mine)

QUOTE

It is quite obvious that there can only be one side that is correct.  Either a piece needs burn-in or it does not.
It also means that whoever is incorrect obviously does not have proper hearing and is therefore designing a product that the designer can't evaluate properly thus making that product virtually irrelevent.
If you feel like commenting please do - I will also understand if you don't want to get involved.
It's just that this kind of acute contradiction makes me as a consumer so leary.

END QUOTE

I am truly sorry about my choice of words as noted.
I can understand how some may interpret my comments as a provocation.
This was not my intention.
As stated, I was just  wanting to learn and form a conclusion as to why there can be such
night and day differences in professional opinions. 
As I have also stated, let's leave the names Klaus and Frank out of the discussion and
simply deal with real theory that I am curious about.

[TheChairGuy]

Spirit,

On page 2 of that 'other' topic you refer to about amplifier burn-in, you'll see my post on the subject.  It is in response to Frank's (what I read as indignant and self-righteous) posting.

He does indeed hear differences in burn-in ....and admitted it in print in regards to his 240/3ex amplifier that I was auditioning.  Poor fella', despite the many great things he's done in this hobby, he can't quite bring himself to believe in something that he can't measure on his 2000-era measuring equipment.  He is, in fact, held back by his very background and education as a clearly extremely talented electrical engineer.  A long time ago Klaus mentioned that he was not an Engineer, and dang glad of it as he is less constrained to try many things because of it.

I've owned that van Alstine 240/3ex for a few weeks...it benefitted greatly from break-in.  I don't need to apologize for hearing it or offer up reasons for it....I know what I heard.  Apparently Frank has also heard it, but vacillates between belief and non-belief of the phenomenom due to his background.

Please don't anyone think this is a diatribe against Frank van Alstine...I am quite likely to buy and own some other piece of gear he makes in my lifetime....such is the respect I have for his talents.  But, that doesn't mean I have to fall 100% in line with his beliefs, either.  And, neither does anyone else.

I now own Odyssey Khartago Extreme Monoblocks (the name itself probably makes Frank cringe  ), after buying a Odyssey Khartago stereo unit.  Oddly, despite Klaus' directions on break in....I didn't think it benefitted at all or very little from break in.  Again, I apologize to no one on this, nor offer up reasons, I just know what I heard.  It sounded great right out of the shipping cartons and great later on, as well.  It does benefit from an hour+ warm-up each listening session, but I found no reason to leave them on 24/7, as Klaus also instructs as best to do.  But, that's my take on things - you may hear or feel differently when you receive your Odyssey gear.

Boy, that Einstein really had it right (see my below sign-off) 

[lazydays]

Without a doubt your reaction to Spirit's post was a gross,  unfair over-reaction.  Nothing in his post remotely warranted such a response.  

Thanks TJ
I appreicate your defence of my post.
You know, this is getting really silly and out of hand.
I have recently invested close to $3000.00 with Klaus on new equipment which I should be receiving
in October. He is a great guy to speak to and deal with.  But that had nothing to do with my post.
My post was for my own education and clarification.
So, let me leave names and personalities out of the equation.
Someone answer this question from a scientific perspective:
Do the components that make up an amplifier need time to break in, and can there be a
sonic differnece over time?
There you go - nothing personal to anyone.

here's a thought:
I work for a pretty good sized company (Klaus knows where), and CNC equipment of one form or another is everywhere you can lay your eyes upon. And like anything else it will break down on occassion. Well we have so much stuff that we no longer send out circut boards for repair, but do it all in house. One of the things these guys do is to actually "burn in" the circuts before installation. Some things like an axis drive (similar to a high current amp, but much bigger) will be burnt in for several days, and are often tweaked everyday or so.
They do change as they age a bit. How much I can't say (I do nothing but mechanical stuff), but after installation they will often have to come back in a couple days with a scope to rebalance the unit. It's just the nature of the beast. Things change in the first few hundred hours.
gary

[lazydays]

I will say that with my odyssey amp I did not hear any short of break-in. Is is because I was sceptical to begin with? Maybe I am not arrogant enough to deny that I am susceptible to the placebo effect. I still love my amp though and have been nothing but thrilled by the Odyssey product.

I will answer all this with one sentence, "I did!" I did hear a difference in spades, and I'm still hearing changes comming forth seemmingly by the hour. I broke my two amps with certain constants already in place. Had my own ideas about what I heard in a dark room; then had a couple others listen that I felt had better ears than I did. The most dramtic change came in the first forty hours, and then the sound stage just sorta grew wider by the hour, and seemed to move closer.
    With the preamp I just put it directly into the downstairs system. Reason I did this was once again I had a constant to go by. Sat back and made a few mental notes. I already knew what I was looking for in the recordings I used for a reference. A few hours later I did a cable change on advice, and things did change a good bit. Still not as much as you'd have thought; just got better. The unit has just sorta grown at a steady pace in all areas, but the changes are very noticable. Now what I need right now are the long interconnects, and the mono blocs (part of this sentence is a hint).
    Now I don't do the reference material like the guys do at Stereophile, I do like to keep recordings that I know exactly what they sound like. Many of them I was a witness to. This helps with the sound stage delima, and what this upright bass really sounds like (they all have a certain signature in themselves). I'm not saying that Klaus' equipment is the last word in sound, but I'm trying to put forth here is that you gotta have a good standard to base everything to. Then stick with it as best you can.
     Lastly in the above paragragh I made the statement about the sound signature of the different upright basses. Anybody here know who's got the best sounding bass in this hemisphere? Rumor has the price tag at $100K!!
glt

[Soundbitten]

I've had my Stratos a few years so I don't remember all the break-in details but I definitely heard a big difference during and after the process .

[bunky]

I have recently invested close to $3000.00 with Klaus on new equipment which I should be receiving
in October.

Exactly.

Which makes his over-reaction even more absurd and mindless.

Here you are,  a customer who just invested $3,000 of your hard earned money into Odyssey gear and this guy is attacking you.  Ridiculous.

This is a discussion forum.  NOT a store.

Discussion forums are for discussions.  That means any subject matter involving Odyssey Audio and related audio gear and operational procedures and requirements.

What's the name of this forum?  Odyssey Audio.  Correct?

Interstingly,   Klaus did not name this .......... " The Exclusive Odyssey Audio Forum: Designed and Created For Satisfied,  Happy and Content Customers Only! Only Positive Butt Slapping, High-Fiving,  Reaffirming Topic Content Allowed! "

Nor do I see a Products page,  a Price List, a Shopping Wagon,  a Check Out page or Method Of Payment/ Payment page.   

This is not Klaus' store.  This is a discussion forum.

Hey TjMV3, it was Klaus's store on Nov 7 2005 when he agreed to let you sell your Tempest on this forum when you claimed that you needed to sell it for personal reasons and it suited you at the time. am i correct ?

[MaxCast]

Somebody buy two amps leave one in the box and play the other for a thousand hours.  Then switch amps and report if there is a difference.

[TjMV3]

Hey TjMV3, it was Klaus's store on Nov 7 2005 when he agreed to let you sell your Tempest on this forum when you claimed that you needed to sell it for personal reasons and it suited you at the time. am i correct ?

If nothing else,  that very well proved this is not a store.  I asked for permision to do that.  It was the very least he could do.

Don't pretend you know what you're talking about here,  because unwittingly,  you just opened mouth and inserted foot even deeper,  than you did the first time in this thread.

[bunky]

Hey TjMV3, it was Klaus's store on Nov 7 2005 when he agreed to let you sell your Tempest on this forum when you claimed that you needed to sell it for personal reasons and it suited you at the time. am i correct ?

If nothing else,  that very well proved this is not a store.  I asked for permision to do that.  It was the very least he could do.

Don't pretend you know what you're talking about here,  because unwittingly,  you just opened mouth and inserted foot even deeper,  than you did the first time in this thread.

Really ? at no point did i put my foot in my mouth and i stand by my beliefs and i was not the only one who had issues with what spirit posted. i remember in november of 2005 when you said that you had personal issues which made you have to sell your Tempest and i posted and tried to console you because i felt sorry for you........ as a matter of fact i still do.   thanks....WCW III

[TjMV3]

Really ? at no point did i put my foot in my mouth and i stand by my beliefs and i was not the only one who had issues with what spirit posted. i remember in november of 2005 when you said that you had personal issues which made you have to sell your Tempest and i posted and tried to console you because i felt sorry for you........ as a matter of fact i still do.   thanks....WCW III

 

[Spirit]

The name of this Circle is Odyssey Audio.  It is not a store it is a forum for discussion on issues relating
to products made by Odyssey.
The "store" is on the Odyssey website.
It is the right of any individual around the world to ask questions about the hobby relating to
what we read. 
The first word in my initial posting was "Klaus" because I was directing my question to him.  Maybe I should have sent him a PM instead of posting it publicly.
I have agreed not to bring up any other manufacturer by name, but my initial pondering still remains.
If in fact sound changes over time because of the burn in effect, then how can an audio manufacturer
who does not believe in this, ever actually hear how his product sounds at its best?
And if in fact there is no such thing as burn in then why do so many audio manufacturers go through such an elaborate explanation of its effects in their manuals?
That is my main contention.

[bunky]

The name of this Circle is Odyssey Audio.  It is not a store it is a forum for discussion on issues relating
to products made by Odyssey.
The "store" is on the Odyssey website.
It is the right of any individual around the world to ask questions about the hobby relating to
what we read. 
The first word in my initial posting was "Klaus" because I was directing my question to him.  Maybe I should have sent him a PM instead of posting it publicly.
I have agreed not to bring up any other manufacturer by name, but my initial pondering still remains.
If in fact sound changes over time because of the burn in effect, then how can an audio manufacturer
who does not believe in this, ever actually hear how his product sounds at its best?
And if in fact there is no such thing as burn in then why do so many audio manufacturers go through such an elaborate explanation of its effects in their manuals?
That is my main contention.

everyone has a right to ask questions, but if it appears to or is percieved to be confrontational in nature you cant expect everyone to take it on the chin and ignore it.i know i wont and it is neither right or wrong it is just in my nature to react.i know i should not have cursed in my first reply but that is the only regret that i have in this matter. the only stupid question is the one that you dont ask.i was very sceptical about burn in until i witnessed it first hand and more than once. all gear does not sound better over time but some of it improves dramaticaly.just because you cannot measure it does not mean it does not exist.the most important thing is to enjoy the music because life is too short otherwise.thanks....WCW III

[jermmd]

I haven't read all of the previous posts so forgive me if this is no longer appropriate. My initial response was the same as A6M-zero's. After some thought, my feeling is that Spirit probably hasn't been following the audio forums long enough to know what a loaded question "burn in" is. It's like cable/IC discussions. They always end up in fights. So when people who have been around for a while see a post like the OP's, our initial reaction is that it's a troll. Even giving him the benefit of the doubt, this subject shouldn't be in this forum.

And "burn in" is real-even if it's psychological rather than truly electromechanical.

[DMi]

Just my two cents on the debatable.

I notice a difference in speakers and in many power amplifiers related to break in time. I have also noticed it in good quality power cables and in some speaker cables. One common denominator... I haven't noticed it as much in lower voltage parts or so much in interconnects as in products that tend to have very high current transfer or that supply high current.

I attribute the change to capacitors or stored charges and if enough current is around also dielectrics choices. These do change some over time and I suspect in a high current design cause changes in audio frequencies passing or instantaneous supply currents.

People can have opinions and scientists only agree part of the time. It depends less on measurements in this sport where even the "golden" eared have different tastes. Count me firmly on the side that hears an improvement after a break in period. Leave your power amplifier(s) off for a day or two, light up some source material right after turning it (them) on and see if it doesn't sound a little better to you closer to the end of an hour of listening. Either our ears changed, we became accustom to the sound or there is some improvement.

That's just me. I have been listening for more than 50 years and I've found electrical theory to be more than once wrong in predicting what the actual experience is going to be. One mans design doesn't work like the others.

No need to set the debate on whos correct. In one case or the other they both are right.  

Doug Sharp

[MaxCast]

Look at it this way, after three months of heavy use, it's all the same.

[MaxCast]

I haven't read all of the previous posts so forgive me if this is no longer appropriate. My initial response was the same as A6M-zero's. After some thought, my feeling is that Spirit probably hasn't been following the audio forums long enough to know what a loaded question "burn in" is. It's like cable/IC discussions. They always end up in fights. So when people who have been around for a while see a post like the OP's, our initial reaction is that it's a troll. Even giving him the benefit of the doubt, this subject shouldn't be in this forum.

And "burn in" is real-even if it's psychological rather than truly electromechanical.

BTW, me thinks like jermmd.  Except put in bunky instead  of zero.

[jermmd]

Sorry.
Bunky instead of Zero.

[klaus@odyssey]

Guys,

Some comments.
Spirit,  Bunky,  there should never be a  problem asking any question whatsoever///as long as there are no insults,  of course.

As for break-in,  you all know my position.  The changes in our and SL's  amps are simply brutal,  and unfortunately it takes a very,  very long time,  both signal and just physically.  There are no established thesis' in regards as to why this happens at all.  I am with the idea that next to fully charging components,  all of the magzillions of electrons need time to "form a river bed".  That's why breaking in directional components make sense.

As for Frank's position,  let me just say that I have lots and lots of respect for him,  both as a person,  and as a designer,  and actually had a 550  of his.  Even though his amp is very different from ours,  I like it// a lot.   However,  I do completely disagree with his position on break-in etc.  Again,  different schools of philosophy. 

How does our stuff change,  and why can it differ?

Very simple.  Each system ,  environment,  and experience is organic and individual.  Different tastes,  different listening behavior,  attention given,  resolution of systems,  software,  you name it.  The same identical amp goes through exactly the same process,  but one person hears much more than the other.  Of course.

As for the notion that the amps don't change,  but you only get used to it:  absolute crap.  Other companies make sure that their gear is running full time at least a month before a show.  Why?
I  have actually done the experiment several times,  and even demonstrated it in my home twice for visiting customers:
Took a brand new Stratos,  idebtical to one of the units in my system,  identical up to the mV  in biasing,  (which I showed the people),  and put them side by side.  Well,  think in terms of the Nurburgring,  first driving a nice Porsche Turbo,  and then getting into a an old beetle.    Getting used to ?  Don't say that this can also play a part,  of course,  but the proof is in the pudding.

BTW,  as for anybody trying to do any comparisons,  here is a bit of tidbits:

1.  never do any serious listening within 2 hours after eating.  The digestive process takes a huge toll on your listening ability.

2.  Sounds stupid,  but really true:  always clean out your ears well.  (now,  go to bed kids, hehehe)

3.  There is no listener memory.  What you heard can stay maybe 10 seconds with you.  Other than the ususal factors of SPL matching,  sitting positions,  etc.,  it is impossible to say with absolute certainty as to what differences you really heard after 10 seconds.  Of course you have an idea,  and that brings me to my mantra,  which I repeat over and over to my customers:   LISTEN WITH YOUR GUT FEELING and with your HAIR ON YOUR NECK.  Who gives a crap about a foot in depth here or a note there.  It's all about "this is right"
So,  when listening to a new and a broken in amp of ours side by side,  we could go into those meaningless
audiophile terms,  which is nonsense anyway,  see above,  but other than perceived obvious differences even
after 10 seconds,  the difference in one being very right and the other one not there yet  is overwhelming.                     

4.  Don't try to pick up changes from a "lesser"  to a " better"  component,  but the other way around.  If you try to get any impressions somewhat right, (notwithstanding the 10 seconds or emotions),  and you just have to try to get "differences" defined,  then it is much easier for our ears and brains to notice what is missing rather than what is added.


Ultimately,  I don't see why there should be a single electronic component that doesn't need break-in.  They all use cables,  electronic components,  solder,  etc.   That just doesn't make sense to me.

However,  I think I have always been on the forefront of being upfront and  honest about the long time of real break-in.  Believe me,  I wish I wouldn't at times.  For marketing ,  it is a nightmare.
"Dear Customer,  congrats to your new amp,  but guess what?  It takes 1-3 months to sound at its best". 


Late,

Klaus

[95bcwh]

Klaus,
That's the most respectful and honest response from a manufacturer... what more can we ask 

No wonder some of your customers wanted to meet you in person just to shake your hand..

barry

[Randy]

Klaus, but then there are guys like me who think your amps sound superb right out of the box, and they weren't replacing chopped liver either.  If they got better with time, it was gradual enough that I didn't notice.  They (mono extremes) knocked me out the first time I hooked them up and they still do.

Randy