[bprice2]

Hello All,

I am hoping some of you might be interested in getting me started on improving acoustics of my living room.  I know it will never be a quality listening room, so I'm OK with just making it better. 

Here are some pictures I've taken:

















It has a concrete floor, the stone fireplace protrudes into the listening area approximately 2.5 feet, there are cut outs in the wall behind the listening position, and it opens up into a kitchen, stairway, and bedroom.  I'm sure there are other defects. 

I'm stuck.  I don't know where to start first.  I'm thinking a thick rug over the listening area of the room, but I don't know how thick or how much area it must cover.  For instance, does it need to cover the area in the alcoves created by the fireplace protruding out?

I also figure I need some absorption devices on the walls, but with the way the room  is designed and the fact that I'm using bi-pole speakers, I don't know where to start.

I'd certainly appreciate anyone who might be able to share with me their opinions.  Where would you start?  Are their products I could set up that will receive wife approval?  Is there someone I could hire for a reasonable rate to help?  Any help would be awesome.  Thanks.

[jqp]

"Unfortunately" the concrete floor is decorative concrete, so you dont want to cover it with thick carpeting. This would make a very good floor, as there is probably not going to be a lot of resonance from the floor. Maybe you can carpet more of it in the listening area though - thick carpet pad under a carpet.

Do you perceive reflections from the floor/walls?

I am thinking you want to set yourself up for a more "near field" listening scenario. Try to minimize any early reflections and sit as close to the speakers as possible.

Possibly move the right speaker to the other side of the door and move the whole setup over to the right to match. Then you can toe them in more to the listening position and possibly eliminate more early reflections.

Also lots of open space behind the listening spot can be really good for this kind of near field setup (reflections are not early from behind). Same would apply to the sides of the speakers and listening area.

Try putting some kind of sound absorption to the right and left of the speakers to see what would happen (maybe a twin mattress temporarily of course) when there is uniform absorption. That may be possible in your room(s). Also behind the couch if you have to sit against the wall.

Otherwise you have a lot of variation of reflective surfaces which may actually help.

You will probably have to move things around a lot to see what happens.

I would commit to 2 or 3 possible seating/system arrangements and then experiment with those setups to see what is feasible.

The first thing I might try is to move the couch up, move the coffee table away with the thought of using side tables instead. But then with a fire the couch could get scorched...

[bpape]

I'd agree with the more nearfield approach.  I'd also turn the arrangement 90 degrees so the speakers are on either side of the fireplace to at least give you something approaching symmetry in front of you.

Bryan

[markC]

Definetly agree with turning the system 90*, but more nearfield? Looks pretty nearfield already. I'd position the speaks either side of the fireplace and add as much accepted bass trapping behind them as possible. Tough to do with the windows. Pull the speaks out in front of the fireplace as far as practical. My $0.03. But, what to do with the tv? Is there another spot for it?

[warnerwh]

Some absorbtive panels made with rigid fiberglass placed where ever you can get away with will help alot. Carpeting the floor would help also.

Bass traps can be built inexpensively. Pm me for more info if you like. Bass traps in at least two corners will not only tame highs and mids in corners but help the bass ringing too.

If you can afford it and need aestetically pleasing room treatments then I'd call Ethan Winer. His prices are good and you can get professional advice if you buy some panels from him. This can be a very worthwhile investment.

I've learned that room acoustics have a HUGE effect on the sound. It can make or break any system of any cost. The improvement of a fully treated room is immense. My basement room is LEDE (live end dead end) with bass traps in each corner. Carpet over concrete. The sound quality is amazingly good. My Vmps Rm 40's sound excellent, with my room they sound incredible. Imaging with good acoustics improves alot also. I've had non audiophile people ask me "where's the sound coming from" a number of times. They'd apparently never experienced a quality system in a good acoustical environment. Before I built my room I hadn't either.

Money and time spent on your room acoustics will give you a very good to excellent return on your investment. These days I'd recommend spending several hundred less and getting the next lower speaker in the line and spending money on room treatment in most rooms.

Your room can be improved alot if your SO will let you get away with it. In my room the dead end is 3" and 4' wedge foam. Not the most aestetically pleasing but very effective. If I had it to do over again I'd use rigid fiberglass covered with a nice fabric. I'd also have bought some stuff from Ethan so I could get expert and experienced advice. The advice alone can be worth what the traps cost.

I should have read more before I did my room but had been in a hurry. Please don't make the same error. You will be taking your system to a higher level. Without good acoustics your system isn't performing the way it can. It's like putting Volkswagen tires on a Corvette. Best of luck in this endeavor.

[Frihed91]

I have a very strange room, so when i listen I pull both my monitors out 1 yard from the back walls and 1 yard away from the side walls.  You can see that would put your speakers maybe 6 feet apart?  I toe them in fairly radically.  I  have no table in front of my listening position.  I have a small round padded item (see the picture under my name) just in front of the speakers and i sit about 6-7 feet away with a throw rug on the wodden floor.  This is definitely near-field and I love it.  I push the speakers back when I am not listening.  Maybe this sounds extreme, but try it first just as an experiment.  Maybe you will be hooked!

I've seen a lot worse rooms sound pretty good, by the way.  Mine included.

Good luck

[Rob Babcock]

To my mind that large coffee table is probably the worst feature of the room, sound wise.  If you can you should try to cover it once, just while you're listening to music.  Despite the challenges your room represents, you can almost always make things substantially better.

[Frihed91]

Right about the coffee table, I think.  I looked at these pictures and this has made me recall several smallish flats in the UK about the same size as your listening area with  sealed fireplaces in the middle and a big cast iron radiators on one side of the room with wooden floors and a pair of Quad ESL '57s doing their thing magnificently.....no matter what anyone says.

I am not too fond of getting TVs or computers close to my hifi.  Maybe that's an old wives tale.

[bprice2]

Good Morning All,

Thank you for your input.  You have given me hope.  On the issue of the coffee table...I hear you.  I had this conversation with the SO just a few nights ago.  It didn't go so well.  However, I have been placing large pillows in front of it (on the speaker side), and I do believe it helps a little.  I have also contemplated listening near-field, but as one of you mentioned, I am practically sitting near-field already. 

I have also brought up the idea of turning the area 90 degrees towards the fireplace and purchasing a flat screen TV and placing it above the fireplace tilted down slightly.  The speakers would be placed on either side of the FP with thick curtain behind over the windows and maybe a bass trap in each alcove.  My wife does not see that as a viable alternative, but I know without a doubt it would greatly improve the acoustics.  We have different priorities.

Questions:
•If I end up needing to throw blankets over things like the coffee table, what type of blanket works best?  I've got a big thick sleeping bag filled with polyester fibers.  I think it’s called Hollowfill.  Would that work better than say a thick wool blanket?

•I think I am going to try and put up some kind of absorption material behind the seating area, and behind the bi-pole speakers. Do you think that with all the other reflective clutter that maybe this could add desirable absorption/dispersion ratio?

•Also, with the absorption panels I’m contemplating installing, I’m thinking of hanging a tapestry over them, so as to hide them (I’m thinking of doing this on the front wall behind the speakers).  Is there a material like wool that might be better for the job?

•I’ve thought about putting small wheels screwed into the bottom of my speaker stands to allow me to more easily move the speakers to different positions in order to get a little more near-field and then to move them back to a position where they are safe and out of the way.  Is this practical?  If so, do you have any recommendations on what kind of roller wheels might be available?

•How far is far enough from the back wall to sit?  I was thinking of placing a long table behind the couch, about as long and high as the back of the couch.  I’d imagine this would place me about a foot to a foot and a half further from the wall.  Is this worth doing?  The other alternative is to place absorption material on the wall around the cut-outs.  Would this alternative be better?

•Does Mr. Winer have a website showcasing some of his products?  I’d certainly like to see what he has to offer.  Everything I’ve seen so far would look fairly hideous in one’s living room…at least my wife would think so.


I want to thank you all again for your help and your time.  I think the first thing I will do is find a suitable rug and install a good thick pad for underneath.  Then I will search out a suitable cover for the coffee table (my wife loves this table and its not going to move), which I can probably stash inside of it and use when needed.  And finally, I will search out some absorption materials that will not totally offend the SO. Oh yeah, I also will hang some curtains over the windows.

I know I am leaving out bass improvement (at least I think I am), but my immediate problem is the ringing effect I'm getting with higher frequencies.  Depending on what I'm listening to, this effect can be a lot like nails being driven into your head...not good.  The odd thing is that with some recordings, this effect is non-existant.

One more thing…just got the word that I will be allowed to convert my separate-from-the-house garage into a garage apartment and the upstairs will be all mine.  I think all the picture taking and talk of changing her living room has scared the hell out of her and in an effort to save her living room, she’s going to let me do this.  So, this exercise has been productive in multiple ways.  Thanks again!

[Frihed91]

To get a good baseline, try to set up your system for near field listening at low to moderate volumes. By doing this, you will take the room out of the equation and, actually, your speakers will not sound any better when you get all your acoustic difficulties sorted out, but you can lay them louder and perhaps (only perhaps) get a wider and deeper soundstage (Don't confuse this with more channel separation.  That's not sound stage).

By listening in the near field you will hear the best or nearly the best from your speakers (at low to moderate volumes) and, when you compare this sound with what you hear ordinarily, this will tell you how your room and furniture are affecting the sound.  If you hear this glare and sibilence in the near field, these are not room prblems, they are system problems.  Near field listening helps to define what are system problems and what are room problems.

[bprice2]

Posted by: Frihed91 

To get a good baseline, try to set up your system for near field listening at low to moderate volumes. By doing this, you will take the room out of the equation and, actually, your speakers will not sound any better when you get all your acoustic difficulties sorted out, but you can lay them louder and perhaps (only perhaps) get a wider and deeper soundstage (Don't confuse this with more channel separation.  That's not sound stage).

By listening in the near field you will hear the best or nearly the best from your speakers (at low to moderate volumes) and, when you compare this sound with what you hear ordinarily, this will tell you how your room and furniture are affecting the sound.  If you hear this glare and sibilence in the near field, these are not room prblems, they are system problems.  Near field listening helps to define what are system problems and what are room problems.

I somehow missed that part, but it makes sense to my little brain.  I'll give it a try.  Maybe I should wait to receive my new amp, which will better match my speakers.  It should arrive in a week or two. Actually, I'll try it tonight. Thank you.

[warnerwh]

I'm not sure I'd put a sofa table behind the couch. Something else that may work into your decor is large pillows.

Ethan's site is Realtraps.com. Although I've never talked to him he's very friendly and helpful on this forum and at AA. His products are excellent and these days treatments are made aestetically pleasing due to the WAF.

You can also build panels that will trap bass as well as higher frequencies. I believe you need four thicknesses of the rigid fiberglass. These can be covered with a nice looking fabric. You want fabrid that is thin and transparent to sound for these to work well with the mid/treble region. The bass frequencies will go right through most anything else. Fabric Depot is where I've gone to get the burlap I used. They have every kind of fabric you can imagine. I can assure you your wife can find something that she likes there. Look at the price tags however, some of that stuff is pretty spendy. Best position for a bass panel trap is stradled in a corner. Corners are the hotspots of your room btw.

Like I said earlier and others will also tell you. Room treatment is mandatory to allow your system to operate at it's potential. This is not a subtle difference. If you can add what it sounds like you can you'll have a substantial improvement in sound quality. After I built my room my first priority wasn't my system but the room acoustics. It should be a priority as far as you can take it for any new system setup.

[clave]

Besides being very cute, I'm sure the dog makes a great high frequency absorber.  I'd consider getting some more furry friends to scatter about, hopefully including some that will stay put in the corners (old, fat cats?).  I've found that depending on where he is lying, my dog can have a trememendous impact on the soundstage.

On a more serious note, I think your instinct to start with the floors is the right idea, having lived in a variety of acoustically atrocious rooms.  I would try hanging more stuff on the walls, too.  In my current apartment, putting paintings (canvas) on the front and rear wallls was very helpful with echo effects.   In this one case, it was beneficial to be married to an artist.

I'd also experiment with speaker placement as much as possible.  The closer you are to walls and what not, the more difference a small move will make.  Anyway, I think your case is far from hopeless. 

[warnerwh]

It just dawned on me that panels can be made portable. This way they can be brought into position only during listening. Don't know if that would help but I thought I'd bring it up.