How do you burn-in amplifier without listening to it?

zybar · « **Reply #20 on:** 18 Sep 2006, 07:09 pm »

Quote from: 95bcwh on 18 Sep 2006, 07:06 pm

Musicdirect.com...

Unless I was conned!!

Quote from: zybar on 18 Sep 2006, 07:03 pm

How are you doing this when I thought that Dusty only sells direct?

BTW, it will be better than your Byston amp...

George

Make sure that the config you are ordering is returnable.

Certain configs (high gain, balanced, etc...) were considered "special orders" and not eligible to participate in the 30 day return policy.

George

nathanm · « **Reply #21 on:** 18 Sep 2006, 09:55 pm »

Quote from: avahifi on 18 Sep 2006, 01:37 pm

I really wonder if you guys "burn in" your toaster, coffee pot, dishwasher, garbage disposal, TV set, and computer before using them. Geeze.
Frank Van Alstine

I for one always make sure my toaster is burned-in. If I neglect to do this I find that room-temperature bread comes out somewhat frozen. Same thing with the coffee pot. Unless you run about 1300 gallons of coffee through that sucker it just turns out wretched swill. But at 1301 gallons it makes award-winning coffee! With computers I usually give them about 50 hours, before that they get really lazy with their multiplication. And I must not be the only person who thinks this way, I just read this on an eBay auction:

Quote

Condition: Mint. Used, but runs perfectly. I bought this workhorse for music production, but it basically sat in my recording studio since I purchased it (06/20/04). This Powermac has run for less than TWENTY HOURS. It still needs broken in.

Luckily his English was properly broken in!

gitarretyp · « **Reply #22 on:** 18 Sep 2006, 10:04 pm »

Quote from: avahifi on 18 Sep 2006, 01:37 pm

I really wonder if you guys "burn in" your toaster, coffee pot, dishwasher, garbage disposal, TV set, and computer before using them. Geeze.

Frank Van Alstine

Actually, i've seen mentioned in several articles that a computer processor does need some burn-in time to achieve maximum stability. Mostly i've seen this noted in articles regarding overclocking. Also, i would not be suprised if TVs change some over time. In fact, i'd be suprised if they didn't.

kfr01 · « **Reply #23 on:** 19 Sep 2006, 02:53 am »

Why wouldn't you want to listen to your amplifier?

I agree with Frank. I think audio electronics burn-in is 1% real, 99% psychological. If anyone has been able to demonstrate that burn-in is real, via either measurements or any controlled listening test, please link me up. I won't hold my breath.

The stability tolerances of computer processors are in no way similar to the differences (especially between listening sessions) our ears are capable of hearing from audio electronics. And, solid state audio electronics are hardly similar to cathode ray tube television screens.

Sorry, I don't buy it --- but what doesn't float my boat, may float yours. Experiment away.

Carlman · « **Reply #24 on:** 19 Sep 2006, 03:26 am »

My comments were due to a recent purchase I made and a friend who has a similar amp that shared his burn-in process.
The amp did a lot right but... something was off. The highs and lows were a little too forward and the midrange therefore seemed recessed a little. I was agitated after a week and it had only gotten a little better in the highs... and the recommendation I got was to let it really rock for a day or 2.

I found the same to be true when I built an AKSA or 2... they take 200 hours to burn in but really settle in after some hard playing for a day or so.

I know it stresses things a little but that's the way it has to be to get that last bit of burn-in complete... Plus if anything were going to 'give' this would be the time to deal with it.

Anyway... I reconnected my regular speakers today and things are as they should be... perfectly coherent and just awesome top to bottom... So, it worked for me. I didn't expect it to change as much as did... But it got 'right' I was toe tapping and enjoying the music like it was a new amp. I'm happy as can be and could care less whether anyone believes me or that things break-in... Life is good in the sound room!

-C

95bcwh · « **Reply #25 on:** 19 Sep 2006, 03:49 am »

While, I didn't hear the "burn-in" on my Bryston amp. But I am hearing "significant" burn-in on my Tact 2.0S after being modified by Anthony. When I first received his full mod, the Tact sounded harsh and bright, it's totally unlistenable. I use my reference system for comparison, which is RWA SB3 analog out straight into my amplifier, so I know what I'm talking about. However, after burning-in 24/7 for 5 days, all the brightness is gone, as I switch back and forth between the Tact and my reference system, the Tact now sounded with just the right tonality for my ear, it added more depth, focus, and 3-dimensional sound. There's still a little bit of harshness on the top end, but the mod was done using all Black Gate caps, so I gather it will take another week or so for the harshness to disappear.

So if you want to experience "burn-in", then simple, buy a Tact, get it fully modified by Anthony, then listen to it. Apparently, Tony had the same experience too. So I'm not alone.

kfr01 · « **Reply #26 on:** 19 Sep 2006, 04:20 am »

I understand you aren't alone on the burn-in issue... I just don't think objective testing or measurements support the subjective claims of burn-in people.

But again, I've used all the subjective terms in the world in discussing audio; we're all guilty of it. What trips one person's trigger, won't trip anothers.

I don't believe in electronics burn-in, but I believe there's a great subjective sonic difference between lossless and high bitrate mp3s. Neither could likely be proved consistently audible.

Am I going to stop using flac? No way in hell.

If burn-in gives you peace of mind, by all means, strap on the resistor and have at it.

CIAudio · « **Reply #27 on:** 19 Sep 2006, 04:32 am »

If you're not listening to it...how will you know if it improved by burning it in?

Just listen to music, isn't that why you bought it? If it sounds better in a couple of weeks, great!

nathanm · « **Reply #28 on:** 19 Sep 2006, 03:47 pm »

Quote from: 95bcwh on 19 Sep 2006, 03:49 am

While, I didn't hear the "burn-in" on my Bryston amp. But I am hearing "significant" burn-in on my Tact 2.0S after being modified by Anthony. When I first received his full mod, the Tact sounded harsh and bright, it's totally unlistenable. I use my reference system for comparison, which is RWA SB3 analog out straight into my amplifier, so I know what I'm talking about. However, after burning-in 24/7 for 5 days, all the brightness is gone, as I switch back and forth between the Tact and my reference system, the Tact now sounded with just the right tonality for my ear, it added more depth, focus, and 3-dimensional sound. There's still a little bit of harshness on the top end, but the mod was done using all Black Gate caps, so I gather it will take another week or so for the harshness to disappear.

So if you want to experience "burn-in", then simple, buy a Tact, get it fully modified by Anthony, then listen to it. Apparently, Tony had the same experience too. So I'm not alone.

Oooh, what a ringing endorsement...where's my checkbook?

"Hey yeah, I'd like to upgrade my equipment, can I get the totally harsh and unlistenable mod? Great! How much is that?"

95bcwh · « **Reply #29 on:** 19 Sep 2006, 04:10 pm »

Quote from: nathanm on 19 Sep 2006, 03:47 pm

Oooh, what a ringing endorsement...where's my checkbook? "Hey yeah, I'd like to upgrade my equipment, can I get the totally harsh and unlistenable mod? Great! How much is that?"

What's so funny?

95bcwh · « **Reply #30 on:** 20 Sep 2006, 04:46 am »

I got my D200 today.. 1st impression:
- very little different from Bryston 4B-SST
- D200 sounds a little 'polite', the bass is just a little weaker but still with excellent control.
- D200 sounds just a little less harsh on the high
- D200 sounds just a little sweeter from mid to high
- Bryston sounds a little more holographic (3-dimensional)

Overall, I wouldn't call it a fundamental shift in sound, I'm talking about subtle differences. One has to do some A-B swap to hear the difference. Considering that the Bryston costs $1000 more than the D200, I guess if I really have to pick one from the start, I would choose the D200.

So I'm leaving the D200 powered-on 24/7...and will do more critical comparison 1 week later..

barry

kfr01 · « **Reply #31 on:** 20 Sep 2006, 12:38 pm »

One week from now, worlds will shift and the universe will change.

GHM · « **Reply #32 on:** 20 Sep 2006, 12:39 pm »

Doesn't Bryston..do their own burn in before shipping? Just to make sure the amplifier is solid. Maybe this is one reason you didn't hear any significant change with it.

I read a little article a while back on The Black Gate™ Idling Process. I was trying to understand why the builder of my gear uses no on/off switches. I also wanted to know because I heard the sound transform over this powering up process..the difference isn't subtle either. I believe Nelson Pass has designed a few amplifiers that always keep the caps charged even with the powerswitch to off. So there are those that do believe in this process..I for one am a believer after experiencing it first hand.

This debate of not needing burn in goes in the same category as transports all sound the same...NOT!!

Good listening

koiman · « **Reply #33 on:** 20 Sep 2006, 03:05 pm »

Barry,
When you say you are leaving the D-200 on 24/7 for a week are you referring to the mute power on or the actual power on with blue lights on?
Lee

95bcwh · « **Reply #34 on:** 20 Sep 2006, 03:13 pm »

Quote from: koiman on 20 Sep 2006, 03:05 pm

Barry,
When you say you are leaving the D-200 on 24/7 for a week are you referring to the mute power on or the actual power on with blue lights on?
Lee

oh, i mean i play music thru it 24/7, my "dummy resistor" hasn't arrived yet, so i have to hook up the amp to my speaker and play not so loudly....

zybar · « **Reply #35 on:** 20 Sep 2006, 03:16 pm »

Quote from: 95bcwh on 20 Sep 2006, 04:46 am

I got my D200 today.. 1st impression:
- very little different from Bryston 4B-SST
- D200 sounds a little 'polite', the bass is just a little weaker but still with excellent control.
- D200 sounds just a little less harsh on the high
- D200 sounds just a little sweeter from mid to high
- Bryston sounds a little more holographic (3-dimensional)

Overall, I wouldn't call it a fundamental shift in sound, I'm talking about subtle differences. One has to do some A-B swap to hear the difference. Considering that the Bryston costs $1000 more than the D200, I guess if I really have to pick one from the start, I would choose the D200.

So I'm leaving the D200 powered-on 24/7...and will do more critical comparison 1 week later..

barry

Thanks for the update Barry.

I am a little surprised that you didn't hear more of a difference, but let's wait and see what you think after a week or two.

Did you create a new correction curve in your TacT preamp for the D-200's? If not, remeasure (hopefully from the exact spot as you used for the Bryston) and create new curves. You will be pleasantly surprised by the results.

George

95bcwh · « **Reply #36 on:** 20 Sep 2006, 03:21 pm »

Quote from: zybar on 20 Sep 2006, 03:16 pm

Thanks for the update Barry.

I am a little surprised that you didn't hear more of a difference, but let's wait and see what you think after a week or two.

Did you create a new correction curve in your TacT preamp for the D-200's? If not, remeasure (hopefully from the exact spot as you used for the Bryston) and create new curves. You will be pleasantly surprised by the results.

George

Perhaps, i need to acquire a pair of golden ear...

F-100 · « **Reply #37 on:** 20 Sep 2006, 03:25 pm »

That is funny, Barry!!!!

JoshK · « **Reply #38 on:** 20 Sep 2006, 03:32 pm »

If he creates new correction curves, it isn't an apple to apple comparison. But it is an interesting experiment too.

Your description is consistent with my impression with traditional SS vs the UcD amps...from memory only though. I too think the UcD amps have a bit leaner bass....I think a lot of this is due in some part to a higher dampening factor and less of the bass bump we are used to hearing (not saying one is better than the other). Cleaner often leads to leaner.

The highs being sweeter and clearer is consistent with my experience. Also the less holographic presentation of digital amps is consistent with my experience. I have a sneaking suspicion that the last result is a result of the opamp in the input stage of the UcD modules. I really want to try to build a discrete input stage (as even Bruno the designer uses a discrete stage for his own personal amps) and see what that brings about. My hypothesis is that all the NFB inside the opamps and slew limiting yields to more of a flat spacial affect.

zybar · « **Reply #39 on:** 20 Sep 2006, 03:51 pm »

Quote from: JoshK on 20 Sep 2006, 03:32 pm

If he creates new correction curves, it isn't an apple to apple comparison. But it is an interesting experiment too.

Josh,

If he uses correction curves that are specfiic to the Bryston, that it isn't exactly an apple to apple comparison in my mind. It would mean that the TacT would be optimized for the Bryston and not for the CI Audio.

I used to think this didn't make a noticeable difference, until I tried it both ways when new amps were brought into my system.

Now if he listened to both in bypass mode, that would be an apple to apple comparison.

George