[VernSchillinger]

Equipment:

Analog Pre-amp: Modwright 9.0SE Linestage
Amps: Parasound Halo A21 & A51 (250wpc x 2 & 250wpc x 5, @ 8ohms)
Source: Onkyo SP1000 (Redbook, SACD, DVD-A)
Processor (for HT & Multi CH Hi-Res Audio): Yamaha RX-V4600 as a pre-pro
Speakers:
-   Mains: Paradigm Studio 100 v3.
-   Center: Paradigm CC570
-   Surr: Paradigm ADP470
-   Sub: Paradigm PW2100
Room:
-   Dimensions: 13x22x8
-   Treatments: None, Carpeted floor, Curtain over window
-   Other: RPTV and 4 leather HT recliners


Setup for 2-Channel Redbook:

Onkyo SP1000 Analog feed --> Modwright 9.0SE --> Parasound Halo A21 --> Paradigm Studio 100s.  D/A conversion occurs in player after which analog signal fed all the way through to speakers.

Issue:

System sound great for the first 15 mins or so.  After this, listener fatigue starts to set in as a result of a piercing upper midrange….especially pronounced during female vocals.  Highs are clear and crisp. 2-channel listening is without a sub filler as the low end of the 100s are sufficient for music.  Modwright pre-amp is excellent, especially with solidifying the low end extension, however, upper midrange issue persists despite the tube stage. This is not the fault of the pre-amp at the 9.0SE is not widely regarded as having a “tubey” sonic signature.

I don’t want to simply start throwing money at things like external DACs, a new transport etc. until I am really confident that it will address the issue.  The Studio 100s are generally characterized as a fairly neutral speaker and hence…..I remained baffled.

Before folks begin to say that the lack of room treatments is an issue, let me say that my general understanding is that room treatments do more for addressing low-end issues as opposed to what I’ve described (please correct me if I’m wrong).

Please help me fix this problem and achieve my much desired 2 channel nirvana!!!

Thanks in advance

[konut]

2 words. Corner treatments.

[Brad]

(Ignore this part - I still think room treatments can help out at higher frequencies - you may have a peak that is being emphasized by your room)

I also have a large RPTV between my speakers.  I put a blanket over it when I'm going to have a long listening session.  Helps with smoothness and soundstage.

Have you tried a source other than the Onkyo?
I agree with you - I don't think the issue is the Modwright.

What cabling are you using?

[Brad]

Oh, and ship those 4 leather recliners to Houston
They are obviously part of the problem

Seriously though, take a look at some of the posts today in the 8th nerve forum - people who were having the same problem you're having

[Bemopti123]

I do not think none of these harshness have anything to do with the sound reflections and the like.  The biggest factor I see here is the speaker itself.  Whatever anomalies you might be facing with are aggravated and delivered by the speaker itself. 

I have read a lot about people attempting to tame midrange and upper frequency glare through a mish mosh of different cable with inaccurate sound characteristics, it simply does not work...except masking what is the obvious. 

If you want to do some component trouble shooting, I would look first at a source swap...and then, I would proceed to the amp.  Another daring thing you might want to do is to swap out the speakers for something else temporarily...The Paradigm has metal tweeter cones, if I am not wrong.  That might make things a little hot. 

If you lived closer to me, I could have loan you a pair of different branded speakers, so you can see whether there was any improvements. 

[Occam]

Vern - This is a totally WAG, you wouldn't by any chance be using Kinber PBJ for interconnects or Kimber 4/8 TVS/TC loudspeaker cables?

[AB]

What tubes are in the Modwright?
What cables are you using?
Has this brightness always been there? Did it just start yesterday? What changed yesterday?
Have you played with speaker position? Some speakers lobe certain freqs and toeing in or out can help move the lobe away from the listening position.

Now I am going to stretch...

Do you have a digital sat receiver near your audio gear?
Is there a power supply near your Modwright?
Is there a dac near your Modwright?

Have you gone around the house and turned off the usual AC trash injecting suspects - refrig, computer, sump pumps etc?

Do you use a power conditioner?

Room treatments work wonders and you should consider some no matter what but you might be surprised what can cause system brightness.

[tvad4]

Different speakers.

Audiophile gear is designed to accurately reproduce everything on a recording. This is not necessarily conducive to enjoyment of music.

The most common complaint with any system is upper midrange brightness. 1001 suggestions are offered to address everything but the source of the problem, which is speakers, IMO. Buy some more forgiving speakers.

[GHM]

I'm thinking your problem falls with the source and/or speakers. The source can make a huge difference in what you hear. Having heard this speaker many times though. Changing the speakers would be a very good start. These are the two areas I would concentrate on.

Good luck

[fredgarvin]

When I have had brightness issues, reflection from objects between the speakers or wall reflection from side walls has been the culprit. Before buying new speakers you need to deal with placement issues. By the gear you have chosen you seem to prefer a resolving, neutral sound.

[zybar]

When I have had brightness issues, reflection from objects between the speakers or wall reflection from side walls has been the culprit. Before buying new speakers you need to deal with placement issues. By the gear you have chosen you seem to prefer a resolving, neutral sound.

Since when are the Paradigm speakers and Parasound Halo amps considered resolving and natural?   

While room treatments should be in EVERY room, they will only do so much in this case...

George

[fredgarvin]

Well, I do have my opinion about the source, amp and speakers but I'll keep it to myself out of politeness, because it is just my own preferance, after all and not his. I mainly meant that he probably is not after a warm sounding system  :icon_lol:and should try giving the speakers room first. 

[JohninCR]

Before spending any money make sure it's not the room.  A bright room will sound bright.
Listen to your speakers nearfield first.  That way you take the room out of the equation.
You may want to try near-wall placement to see if that balances things out with the added
lower midrange and bass.  If you still don't like the sound, then you don't like the speakers. 
Sounding OK but soon fatiguing sure sounds like a bright room and/or bright speakers. 
Everything else is just bandaids.  IMHO  Speakers first, room 2nd, then source.  Everthing
else is just tweaking and new toys.

[eric the red]

Couldn't the Paradigm's metal tweeter have a lot to do with this? I have a metal Focal tweeter in my speakers and that thing is hard to tame.

[ted_b]

When did the harshness start?  What was introduced that set this off, or did you bring the whole setup in at one time?  I'm not even saying that introducing product x caused the harshness, therefore it's prouct x.  Sometimes a more resolving piece of gear actually illuminates issues upstream or down.  Kinda like getting new contacts only to find out she's not as hot as you thought....of course, neither are you now that you can see in the mirror. 

System synergy is a fleeting thing, and it's converse, the incompatibility of two seemingly good sounding pieces of equipment, is strangely much more common.

Without any more info I'd start at the speaker/amp combo and try to demo some other combinations.

[warnerwh]

It's very possible it's room related. If you don't have any room treatments you should. Otherwise your room will typically have something like plus or minus 15db swings, this is average!

The Behringer DEQ 2496 can also help alot if you have a WAF issue. No matter what if your room acoustics aren't good then no matter what you put in that room will be a problem. No system can perform optimally in a room with poor acoustics. Where the peaks and dips are at depends on many things such as the size of your room, furnishings, glass is BAD, and other paraphernalia.

Your equipment should be pretty flat. One thing you should try is various speaker/listener positions. An inch or two can make a large difference. Also try different amounts of toe in to the point of crossing the speakers in front of you. This is all free and just takes some of your time. It's also the most important tweak to a system.

I'd consider different speakers also. Please first though address the room before throwing any more money at your system. You will find the dollars spent have a high yield on the return for your investment. Alot can be done by yourself, just read 

[VernSchillinger]

I'll start with a bit of history and then try and respond to some of the specifics --

Starting with a very limited budget, I purchased the Paradigm Studio speakers with the aforementioned Yamaha receiver. I learned pretty quickly that trying to run these speakers using just a receiver was futile, if not downright foolhardy. System was very bright (due to poor low end extension)

The next piece to enter into the chain was the Parasound A51 amp. Things improved immediately. Bass response was much improved and overall tonal balance improved.

Also added 3 dedicated 20 amp circuits to the room.

The next addition was the Onkyo SP1000.  Partly driven by the video side of things....was experiencing serious macroblocking with a Denon 3910 and had read good things about the Onkyo (an Integra DPS 10.5 clone) on both the audio and video side. Video did improve significantly.....audio was, frankly, no worse...no better.

Still dealing with long duration listener fatigue, I decided that tubes somewhere along the chain would help to improve things.  The Modwright pre had received great reviews and Dan Wright was very accomodating, price wise, on a demo piece.  As such, I snagged one. I was actually shocked by how much tigher the pre-amp made the low end. Prior to its addition, I always thought the 100s should be capable of more bass for their size. Well....the Modwright certainly brought that out in spades. Again, the improvement in low end helped to balance things out better and by default, tame some of the harshness.

Finally, the dedicated 2- channel amp (A21) was added. Can't say it was noticeable difference from the A51, but I was looking to 7 channels of amplification for HT purposes in the long run, and having a dedicated 2 channel amp (on its dedicated 20 amp circuit) seemed to be the right move.

So....this is where I am. Things have improved, but not to the point where I'm satisfied. I should also be upfront and say that I was initially on a budget with plans for a bookshelf setup driven by a receiver. Well....look where I've ended up. Never really intending to spend the coin that I have (which btw is a lot for me….opinions may differ wildly based on your own particular situation), I never did spend the time to audition equipment (especially speakers) the way I would if I could do it all again today. From what I've read, I'd probably be looking at brands such as Dynaudio and staying away from B&W.

Have you tried a source other than the Onkyo?

Yes, the Denon 3910 prior. Have not tried a dedicated redbook player though.

What cabling are you using?

Nothing fancy. Basic shielded 12 AWG stuff from impact acoustics. Runs are pretty long, ~50 feet. All speakers have the exact same run lengths.

This is a totally WAG, you wouldn't by any chance be using Kinber PBJ for interconnects or Kimber 4/8 TVS/TC loudspeaker cables?

No..see above.

What tubes are in the Modwright?

Tung Sols. Dan Wright felt they would be slightly warmer than the stock Jans.

Has this brightness always been there? Did it just start yesterday? What changed yesterday?

See history above.

Have you played with speaker position? Some speakers lobe certain freqs and toeing in or out can help move the lobe away from the listening position.

I have. Presently have them toed in slightly with the imaginative cross about a foot behind my listening position. Also have the front raised slightly, resulting in the tweeter being pointed slightly upward. Have played around a good bit with positioning, but it didn’t seem to help much on the high-end of things. The low end was greatly impacted by movement i.e. proximity to side/rear walls etc. Currently the speakers are about 3.5 from the rear wall and about 2.5 from the side walls (best I can do given the room size constraints).

Do you have a digital sat receiver near your audio gear?
Is there a power supply near your Modwright?
Is there a dac near your Modwright?

No to all.

Do you use a power conditioner?

Amps and sub are directly into the 20 amp receptacles. Other gear is plugged into a fairly vanilla Monster surge protector (also on a dedicated circuit). I have tried different configurations (direct to outlet etc.), but to my ears there was no perceived difference.

Room treatments work wonders and you should consider some no matter what but you might be surprised what can cause system brightness.

I’ve been thinking about contacting Rives audio for a level 1 consult, but I’m honestly just concerned about blowing a wad of cash on a “solution” that doesn’t work.

“Having heard this speaker many times though”

GHM, can you elaborate please?

“While room treatments should be in EVERY room, they will only do so much in this case”

My gut tells me the same.

“Well, I do have my opinion about the source, amp and speakers but I'll keep it to myself out of politeness, because it is just my own preferance, after all and not his.”

Look, I’m looking for a solution and am not going to be offended by anyones views….even if I disagree with them.  You’ve seen the path I’ve taken to get where I am and I’ll be the first to acknowledge that it wasn't the best way. That being said, I am where I am today (after spending what is a good sum of money to me), so the focus is more on a solution. Please fire away…..

“IMHO  Speakers first, room 2nd, then source.  Everthing else is just tweaking and new toys.”

As afraid to hear it as I am, I think you may be correct.

“Couldn't the Paradigm's metal tweeter have a lot to do with this? I have a metal Focal tweeter in my speakers and that thing is hard to tame.”

I don’t think it’s the tweeter that’s troubling me. I do like crisp highs, it the upper midrange (vocals) that appear to be my issue.

What are peoples thoughts on the Halo amps? I honestly thought they made the biggest positive improvement, followed closely by the Modwright.

Sigh….I think the speaker choice may have not been ideal, however, I’m not ready to hang my hat up yet.  Please continue to fire away with thoughts, suggestions, ideas and criticisms.

Thanks

[tvad4]

Replacing the speakers is going to get you closer to where you want to be. Soliloquy, Tyler, Spendor...all have a softer sound that is more forgiving of electronics. Tyler loudspeakers can be auditioned at home. Soliloquy is out of business, but a few models can be found brand new on Audiogon at great prices. They received consistently good reviews. You can probably pick up a new pair of Soliloquy 5.0 monitors, stands and a subwoofer for less than $1500. Spendor is known for it's non fatiguing sound.

I owned a Modwright SWL9.0SE preamp. As excellent as it was, it was not particularly forgiving, and I believe it's a mistake to assume that just because it uses tubes that it's somehow going to ameliorate a bright upper midrange. It's tube type limits one's ability to tube roll, unlike preamps that use 12AU7, 6922 or other more common tube types. It has many good attributes...accuracy and resolution among them, but it has a primarily solid state presentation, IMO, and is not an appropriate tool to "fix" a bright system.

[Scotty]

Vern see if you can borrow a different power amp for starters. Your speakers,
what ever model number they are, have a very flat "claimed" response,both on and off axis, they may not be the entire problem.
Good luck with solving this problem, it is a common issue with certain systems and you are not alone in your suffering.
Scotty

[Russell Dawkins]

Vern, I read this:
i purchased my 100 v3s in early 2004 at that time i was using a rotel rb 1080 amp. bk avp 2030 pre amp .sony sacd. denon hdcd.i initialy felt the sound was somewhat sterile very clean but not musical the more they were played they very gradully began to open up. i replaced the pre amp with a rotel rc 1090 after the pre burned in the sound improved even more. what i did not realize was that these studio 100s take a very long time to break in. four days ago i became the proud owner of a pair of odyssey khartago monoblocks after two hours of warm up i was nearly floored by the sound coming from the studio 100s i was going to buy a stratos extreme but after i told klaus i owned studio100v3s he said the studios liked high current and recommended the new khartago monos 150 wpc >100 amps current and oh my god! did that man know his stuff! it brought the studios to a whole new level the combination of the two is truly a match made in heaven!the ability to reproduce the sound of symbols'piano'bass have all improved dramaticaly. voices have a sense of realism that is shocking. guitar sounds as if the player was seated in my livingroom i feel that my system in its present configuration could best many systems costing three times as much! i owe thanks to klaus for his broad knowledge of synergy because audio when done right is a form of art!

on this forum: http://www.audioreview.com/cat/speakers/floorstanding-speakers/paradigm-reference/PRD_298870_1594crx.aspx

You may be running out of amplifier headroom in the mids, i.e., you may be "tickling" the protection circuitry at the levels you like to listen at. Many amps sound ugly when pushed a little. Something to do with the way they recover from even minor and brief clipping. There is another review on that thread which seems to suggest that the studio 100 may appreciate a lot of amp muscle.

Do you get the same effect in 5.1 as well as 2 channel?

Could you experimentally use 4 channels of the A51 to bi-amp the speakers. That might tell you if you are power limited or not.

From your description, it sounds like you are being bothered by something in the range between (I'd guess) 600 Hz and 2,500 kHz which suggests midrange driver (or amp).

Many midrange drivers become "hard" when pushed, in fact, most cheaper ones do. In the cases where distortion is not the limiting factor in playback levels, turning up the wick gives more of a "bigger" effect than a "louder" one. When turning up the volume means rapidly increasing distortion levels, there quickly comes a point where you instinctively feel "that's loud enough". What's really happening is you've reached your threshold of tolerance for distortion.