[JohninCR]

Great, you're a budget minded type.  Start with the free or virtually free stuff.
Download yourself a free to use for 30 days tone generator and burn yourself
a CD of test tones.  http://www.esseraudiosolutions.com/ttg.htm  With that
you can easily determine any obnoxious peaks. 

Then try some absorption at your first reflection points.  Get a helper and with
a mirror to find out where they are (from listening position you see the speaker
in the mirror).  Use some pillows, couch cushions (fabric not leather), mattress,
whatever.  Maybe try a mattress on the wall behind you, or in a corner too.
This should help tell you if the room is your problem.  The acoustics circle crew
can help lead you to some low cost DIY room solutions.

Next would be tweaking your speakers.  If the mid driver can be taken off easily,
then look inside.  Maybe you're getting too much reflected energy from the rear
wave back through the driver cones.  A little damping in there could do the trick.
Also, if a peak showed up in your tone sweep, it could be a resonance stimulated
in frame of the driver, and that's easily cured with some duct seal.  Once you
find out exactly what drivers are used, you could check around on some of the
DIY forums regarding tweaks for those drivers.  There are different coatings used
on speaker cones such as dammar varnish and puzzlecoat that can be very effective
in smoothing things out in the range where you seem to be having a problem. 
Proceed with caution using non-reversible tweaks like cone coatings and keep the
coats nice and thin, and let them dry for days before listening between each coat.
These are all things that anyone can do, so don't be afraid.  Just be careful not to
do something like put a screwdriver through the speaker cone.

If you're able to diagnose the problem and solve it yourself, that can be much more
rewarding and effective than spending $.

[JLM]

Vern,

Your history didn't exactly reveal when this fatigue began.

Can you better define the frequency range involved with the fatigue?

Is the delay from first listening to the feeling of fatigue related to how long you've listened or how long the equipment has been on?

How loud do you listen?  (That's a lot of speakers/watts for that sized room.)

Sorry but my guess is that you listen way too loud and may have something wrong with your sense of hearing (possibly from extended exposures to high sound pressure levels), consult a doctor.  Best to catch it now before it gets worse.

Public service announcement:  Extended exposure to 85 dB or more will result in permanent hearing loss and possibly permanent pain.

[GHM]

Hi Vern,

Well I've heard this speaker and others in the line because I've owned a few pair of Paradigms. So has a good friend of mine and another friend( who happens to be a dealer for Paradigm). So believe me my friend, I've spent plenty of time listening to them in different rooms on different equipment.

The speakers do like power. I'm not sure if this is your problem. I listened to this speaker just a few weeks ago. It was mated to the Bryston 4B SST and a older McIntosh CD player at the helm. The sound was on the hot side. Yes it was clean and clear, but I knew right off the bat that it would become fatiguing in a short period of time. The customer auditioning the gear was inexperienced and just loved what he called detail.

He eventually spent better than 8 grand that day on an all Bryston system using the 100v3s. Since my friend was the dealer..I wasn't going to discourage the guy. It wasn't my place. I figured as time goes on and he listens to other speakers and front ends. He'll realize that the thing he called detail, is a abundance of upper midrange and treble built into the speaker itself.

It also had something to do with that Cd player. I've heard these speakers on an Arcam source. Much better than Denons, Sonys or the Mac I heard that day IMHO. 

Since I've haven't spent time with the Onkyo I can only speculate. If you couldn't hear a difference in sound quality between it and the Denon. Then the Onkyo must have a similar sound..you can do better for less on the front end.

Start by replacing the speakers. This will improve things considerably. Unfortunately the only way to find the right speaker is go out and listen or audition them at home(which is best).

I understand the throwing money out the window ordeal. This is the one thing most dealers fail to tell you when you get started on the journey. Your going to burn some cash trying to find a fit..there's no way around it. Unless you have Aphiles that live close and allow you to experiment with their equipment. You're going to spend a little money in the learning process..so be prepared. Buy used when ever possible , this way you can try out the gear and resale without a loss in most cases.

Room treaments are cool. Since I've heard these in several different rooms. I doubt this will cure the problem. Try not to get caught up in the cable game. The cables do make a difference to a certain point. IMHO once you find a neutral cable..anything after that..your pissing in the wind looking for a bandaid.
Many do this and spend more money than just going to the real problem as stated by others in this thread.

1) Speakers
2) Source..experiment once you become accustom the system.
3) Amplifier..experiment over time as well.
4) Cables would be the last thing I would play with once you find a sound you can tolerate.

[ted_b]

I know that opinions are like ****, but you asked.   As per my earlier post, and echoed by at least one other, I think, I'd start at the amp.  Again, not that the Halo is a bad amp, just not right for Paradigms maybe.  I'd look to trying a decent powered tube or hybrid (Butler has a 10-30 day trial I think).  If you don;t have a good local dealer that can loan you stuff, the used Audiogon route is nice because you can turn them around if you don't like them, and they'll be well broken in, likely.  I just wouldn't try flavoring your sound with your speakers until you try other easier options, cuz my approach is that "warm" or "less bright" speakers may limit you longer term.....I dunno, just my gut feel.  My $.02

[woodsyi]

Where are you Vern?  Perhaps there is someone nearby who can loan you a tube amp or a pair of speakers to try?  Or even try an octal tube pre that will be warmer than the SWL9.0 SE.  I have one, too, and I can tell you it's not in the warm camp. 

[Wayner]

Russel Dawkins hit the nail on the head. I own the 40v.3's and it took 2 years for the tweeter to cool down. Now, I don't beleive in most of the break-in mumbo-jumbo, but I do think the surround used in the tweeter for the Paradigm Studio series takes a while to become plyable. It isn't the aluminum dome. That is made to be light and ridgid.

I have also discovered that if the gold plated jumper plates  between the woofer and tweeter connections are removed and replaced with quality speaker wire (if you are not bi-wiring or bi-amping), and at the same time terminate the speaker wires from your amp to the woofer banana connectors, the sound will change. You will have more bass and less harsh high frequency.

I have contacted Paradigm about this and they are reviewing my findings. I can easily change the sound of the speakers by putting back on the stock hardware and hooking my amp to the tweeter banana jacks for the horrible harsh high end sound.

Try it, you might be suprised!

Wayner

[Carlman]

I know the Modwright + Butler 2250 is a good combo.  That's a 2,k amp used, though.  Not sure of your budget, don't know anything about Halo's.

I've battled upper-mid and high harshness for a while.  I've ended up spending a TON of time and a lot of money curing it.  I would recommend at a minimum, trying some of 8th Nerve's newest products in all the corners of your room and putting some absorptive panels at the primary reflection points.  If you do nothing but that, you will hear an improvement in that particular area... It will seemingly reduce the soundstage width; but (in my opinion) make the soundstage more accurate with better depth/texture.

I've heard that Paradigm's have a typical bass and treble boosted type of design that so many manufacturers like to employ to sound 'bigger' or have more pizzaz.  I've found this to be somewhat true but my exposure to Paradigm has been limited.  They did make 1 in-wall speaker I really liked... but it was the only one.

I would recommend trying to hear some Proac's, Revel's, and B&W's with some of your favorite female vocal performances to get a feel for how differently they execute the highs and upper mids.  I'm not saying you'll like or hate any of them, just suggesting some 'homework'.  I think this will help you determine if it's the recording, the speakers, or maybe something else.

I wish there was an 'easy' cure but it's probably going to be a combination of a couple of things.  Steer clear of cables for now and focus on the simple room treatments and go experience some other speakers playing your tunes... I think think that'll put you on the path to figuring it out.

-C  

[VernSchillinger]

I am in Charlotte, NC. 

I agree completely with the assessment re:the Modwright piece. I knew from the get go that it is not a warm piece and has a SS characteristic. My thought was that the Yamaha may have been bright to begin with, plus who knows what all the D/A A/D conversions and processing was doing to the sound, even in the units "Pure Direct" mode.  As such, I felt like a good analog pre-amp would be a nice addition.  Please don't get me wrong, I still really do like the Modwright Pre.

Here's a link to some measurements on the Studio 100 v3s.  I'm not an expert, so maybe someone else can interpret.

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/105paradigm/index2.html

[VernSchillinger]

Russel Dawkins hit the nail on the head. I own the 40v.3's and it took 2 years for the tweeter to cool down. Now, I don't beleive in most of the break-in mumbo-jumbo, but I do think the surround used in the tweeter for the Paradigm Studio series takes a while to become plyable. It isn't the aluminum dome. That is made to be light and ridgid.

I have also discovered that if the gold plated jumper plates  between the woofer and tweeter connections are removed and replaced with quality speaker wire (if you are not bi-wiring or bi-amping), and at the same time terminate the speaker wires from your amp to the woofer banana connectors, the sound will change. You will have more bass and less harsh high frequency.

I have contacted Paradigm about this and they are reviewing my findings. I can easily change the sound of the speakers by putting back on the stock hardware and hooking my amp to the tweeter banana jacks for the horrible harsh high end sound.

Try it, you might be suprised!

Wayner

I will give this a try. Will also try the other posters recommendation of bi-wiring using the A51.

[tvad4]

Also, you probably realize the Modwright reveals all the warts of your upstream components, right? This is actually a good thing in a preamp, but it's a bad thing for your wallet.

[VernSchillinger]

Here are some pics of the room.  They are a bit dated (CC is now higher up on stand in front of the RPTV, Modwright missing, A21 missing).  There is a window behind the curtain.





Carlman, I've looked at the eight nerve products, however, given that I don't have a flat ceiling, the corners probably won't work.

[Bob Reynolds]

Hi Vern,

I would follow the suggestion of JohinCR on Page 2. Sit nearfield - no more than 7 - 8 feet away with your speaker's toe-in adjusted. This will limit the effect of the room.

I couldn't tell from the pics that the speakers are forward of the plane of the TV. They should be.

Where's the sub? If you are not using it for the 2-channel setup, that would be the first adjustment I'd make.

[VernSchillinger]

Hi Vern,

I would follow the suggestion of JohinCR on Page 2. Sit nearfield - no more than 7 - 8 feet away with your speaker's toe-in adjusted. This will limit the effect of the room.

I couldn't tell from the pics that the speakers are forward of the plane of the TV. They should be.

Where's the sub? If you are not using it for the 2-channel setup, that would be the first adjustment I'd make.

The front of the speakers are about a foot in front of the plane of the TV.  If you picture the Center channel now sitting on a stand in front of the TV, then the front of the mains are in line with the front of the center. 

I find that standing behind the seats gives me a more tolerable sound than sitting smack in the middle of the seats.  I'll give JohinCR's suggestion a try, but as I said, I find that the harshness is less when I am further back from the speakers.

[VernSchillinger]

The sub is in the right rear corner of the room behind the seats.  Call me crazy, but I don't like the sub when listening to 2 channel.  This is why I went for towers as opposed to bookshelfs.  Am also cognizant that the mains won't go as low as a sub, but, I just don't feel the need to go that low when listening to music, unless its some of the newer R&B labels.

[Sonny]

Vern,

I think this looks like a wonderful room for sound.
Sure there are reflective walls, but we all have that.  I believe the main problem with the fatigue in listening really, is the speakers.  The modwright, I've heard is nothing but praise as well as the Parasound Halo.  The Paradyms have have aluminium tweeters, does it not?  If so, I think that's the main reason for your fatigueness.  I would recommend, for speakers that are forward and perhaps a bit on the agressive side that you don't toe them in but only a little.  That will help reduce the directness of the tweeters to your ears.  That is why, when you stand behind the listening chairs, you have less fatigue because the tweeters are crossing infront of you and not pointing directly at you.

See if that works!

[GHM]

Vern you may also want to try tilting the speakers back a bit. This may help as you mentioned you preferred the sound when standing up. By tilting back, the tweeter will be off axis and lower the treble response at your ear level. In this position the further you sit back the lower the treble response. Nice room 

2 years to break these tweeters in? Only if your not playing them but an hour a week.

[fredgarvin]

Looking at the pics I would definately suspect your room as the biggest problem. You have some nodes and peaks as you noticed by moving about the room.  The ceiling shape, I am sure, is a big problem and you should treat the side walls they are giving off much reflection also. I am no expert but I have been playing on stage since a child and have experianced a lot of sound bugaboos. Audiocircle has manufacturers with expertise that can help. Explore that before throwing money at speakers.

[Scott F.]

Heres my take on the issue...



When you take a look at these 'in room' responses from JA, you'll notice a few things that are repeated in each of the measurements he took (anachoic, etc). See the rise that starts at 2k and up? Even though that seems minimal on paper, that is actually a 4db increase at 3k. From 1k to 4k is the exact frequency range that you are having issues.

The rise in db is likely two or three fold. Take a look at the speaker...



If you notice, Paradigm is using a 'waveguide' on their tweeter. It is essentially horn loading the tweeter to a certain extent. This is part of the reason you are hearing harshness in the upper mids and treble region.

The second issue is the use of a metal dome. There is a good reason the vast majority of 'high end' manufacturers don't use metal dome tweeters, they tend to 'ring'. I know, I know, B&W uses them. Well, if a metal dome isn't done 'right', they tend to sound very harsh. B&W has done a fairly decent (not perfect) job of taming them.

And the final issue that be contributing to the harshness is the crossover. Not knowing its design and parts quality, there may be poor quality parts that are employed (read = electrolytic caps on the tweeter). That one is a pure guess but if true, might be a contributor.



The Band Aide

I agree with room treatments. After looking at your pics, you'l got a 'live' room. To test this inexpensively, take a couple of heavy woolen blankets and put them on your sidewalls at the first reflections. Use thumbtacks to attach them. Next, take another heavy blanket and cover up your TV. You are getting major reflections off the screen.

Next, take some felt and affix it to the surface of the wave guides. Cover the entire area up to the surround of the tweeter all the way out to the edge of the wave guide. You will likely need two or three layers of felt to absorb enough of the treble energy to tame those things down. I've had luck constructing similar items that are removeable by using the cardboard from the back of a pad of paper. I cut the baffle shape out of the cardboard (in your case it would be the waveguide conical shape) and then begin applying layers of felt to the cardboard with a lite adheisive. You don't want the felt to get impregnated with glue because it will begin to reflect rather than absorb.

Be prepared, when you dampen the waveguides, this will drastically change the sound of these speakers. Compare to what you are hearing now, they are going to sound dull and rolled as it will attenuate the entire treble region. The great thing about damping, this might cost you $10 and about two or three hours of time. It will show you that the tweeter and waveguide is the issue.

The last option is sell the speakers. I personally don't think wires, pre's, CD players or any other item is going to fix this. The measurements coupled with seeing the waveguide is a tell all to me. Oh, tow those things out some. The more tow in you have, the 'hotter' the upper mids treble region becomes.

Just my $.02




If JA or anybody else is reading this from SP, I apologize for linking to your copyrighted images. I'm just attempting to help out a fellow 'phile. If you wish, I'll be happy to remove the image link in favor of a web link.

[Russell Dawkins]

Will also try the other posters recommendation of bi-wiring using the A51.

Note I said bi-amp not bi-wire. Remove speaker jumpers, use two sets of RCA interconnects from the two sets of outputs from the Modwright to 4 amps and send the outputs to the high and low ins on the speakers. Next best thing to active crossover and true bi-amping. Even with 14 gauge lamp cord, should sound better.
Also, that long speaker wire run can't help. I'd get a long pair of interconnects from Blue Jeans and be able to use shorter cables to your speakers.
Something needs to be done acoustically to your room; it looks exceedingly reflective. Do you know what a flutter echo sounds like? If you clapped your hands when in the listening position, I'll bet you hear a strong flutter between walls to your left and right (90º L&R). I would guess that the wall reflection from the speakers is serious, as is the reflection from the upper angled corner to the ceiling, not to speak of the wall behind the speakers. A relatively small square or two of acoustic foam in each of those 8 locations would go a long way. You probably need some bass absorption in the corners behind the speakers, but that would not be as important as basically getting closer to the screen and speakers to remove the room somewhat from the equation.

You need some clutter in there for diffusion - could I offer you some from my room?

Also you might consider putting all your equipment at the mid point along a side wall.

Fortunately, the Paradigms would be an easy sell if you went that way, due to all their advertising. They do look like a difficult load from the measurements - the high impedence in the 2 kHz range means that the amp won't be able to put out anywhere near its rated 8 or 4 ohm power at that frequency, plus the phase angle is pretty high at the same time.

To repeat, I think the sonic "problem" centers around the midrange - I've often read that aluminum dome tweeters sound metallic, but I believe that's just a logical-seeming myth. I've heard beautiful metal domes and I believe the main reason you don't see more is that some manufacturers know of the consumer resistance out there and are catering to it.

[Bob Reynolds]

The sub is in the right rear corner of the room behind the seats.  Call me crazy, but I don't like the sub when listening to 2 channel.  This is why I went for towers as opposed to bookshelfs.  Am also cognizant that the mains won't go as low as a sub, but, I just don't feel the need to go that low when listening to music, unless its some of the newer R&B labels.

I agree with others that the room could use some diffusion on the side walls. BTW, I wish I had your room -- very nice.

The corner close to the listening position should be an OK spot for the sub. Do you notice the fatigue when using the multi-channel setup? Can't you put the pre/pro in "stereo" mode and that would incorporate the sub? Does that cause the fatigue?