[Spirit]

This is only my first day as a member of Audio Circle.
What a great site for Audio hobbyists.
I am kicking myself (not too hard) that I have missed out in the past.
I gravitated to the AVA Circle based on positive comments I read on Audiogon.
I am in the market for a new Power Amp and I am intrigued by what AVA has to offer.
There is something that I would hope some of you can clarify.
Upon reading the AVA website, I notice that in the product description no mention
of the kind of parts being used is indicated.  For example, when I read about other
products being built using quality parts such as BlackGate caps, Shottky rectifiers,
Cardas posts, etc. I know that I am on the right track with that company.
The AVA site does not indicate any mention of the kind of material being used.
Please don't get me wrong.  I am sure that these amps are first rate, but can anyone
explain to me why the name of the parts being used is not noted.
One other thing. Unless I missed something on the site -what kind of DAC's are being used
in the AVA outboard DACs.  Are they Burr-Brown; do the accept 24/96 signal.
It seems to me that there seems to be a shroud of secrecy involving the insides of
these components.  I also notice that there is an absence of Specs on the differnet
components.
I know that it must read as if I am trying to bring negativity into this circle.  Please
believe me that I am not.  I am just trying to learn and it is my 30 years of AudioPhilia
Nervosa that is sparking my leeriness.
I would really appreciate any of the veteran AVAers to set me straight.

[Wayner]

Go back to Frank's website and download some of the AVA Audio Basics newsletters. They are free. After you read of few Audio Basics, you will understand Frank and his design philosophies.

Remember, it is how the component is used that makes the difference. A well branded component used incorrectly will have an inferior sound.

W

[avahifi]

If you took a Ford Pinto and replaced all the suspension parts with ones made of machined Titanium keeping all the pickup points, geometery, spring rates, and damping the same, what would you have?

A very durable Ford Pinto, with no improvements in ride or handling at all, because you made no engineering improvements at all. Well, maybe you would improve the unsprung to sprung weight ratio a bit, if you know what that means.

No we do not advertise the age of the walnut we use on the dashboards or that we have gold plated hubcaps.

Get it?

Frank Van Alstine

[Zheeeem]

Hmmmmmmmmmm...  I reckon what's important with circuit parts is that they perform according to specification and have a long service life.  One of the things Frank does is measure his parts before selecting them.  He also matches values left-to-right, and, IIRC he was one of the first to do this with the FET-5 Mark 2 preamp from the 70s.  Personally, I'd rather have this than parts selected solely on the basis of brand name and cachet.

[rustneversleeps]

I have no complaint as far as the sound from the AVA equipment. They sound good.

I know nothing about the sound of Blackgate capacitors, or oil filled whatever. I know nothing about pure silver connector, or heavily good plated binding post.

Here's what I know. I have years of experience about electronic equipment, not necessary home audio stuff, but a lot of "military grade" and "industrial grade" pieces.

I own a AVA pre amp and a fet valve amp, not the newest version.

The "military grade" equipment that I've worked on never use Blackgate caps. They have Sprague caps, and Allen carbon composite resistors with a yellow band on them. They have heavy duty nickle or gold plated binding post connectors, not many RCA type though. Most of the hardware parts on a piece of military equipment are metal, not plastic.

That means, the AVA input RCA jacks will never survive being jacked in and out hundreds of times with a RCA cable. I am not talking about oversize exotic audiophile cables, just your ordinary garden variety radio shack cable. How do I know that you ask. I actually measured the diameter of the RCA and the Monstor RCA cable, not much difference, they are about the same. After I jacked in and out with a common RCA cable, the input RCA lost it's grip, it still makes good contact, no dropout, but I know it won't last if more cable switching is done.

So, in my opionion, AVA equipment should have used heavy duty RCA input jacks (output binding posts are good), metal on/off,  metal mono/stereo switches, more bracing for the chassis (I mean, come on, if you take the top cover off, the chassis is structurally weaken, the top cover is part of the support for the chassis), silver plated teflon wire for longivity, other than that, the electronic parts are good for the circuit, unless someone can prove to me that the Blackgate and oil filled cap have better audio properties, I've seen  oil cap being used in high voltage power supply only.

Better "feel", that's what I am getting at, I don't mind paying a little bit more for that.

[Wayner]

AVA enclosures are very robust. The jacks are proper. Oversized cables and connectors will offend any jack made by any manufacturer.

W

[warnerwh]

One thing you should consider is that Frank has been at this for 4 decades or so. This is far more experience than most any other audio electronics manufacturer. I've been in this hobby since the early 70's and Van Alstine is one of the very few companies I remember being in business back then. This engineering experience is worth alot. Many companies will only hire engineers with alot of years of experience. Not that a young guy can't be good but odds are far in favor of someone who's been doing it for many years.  I wouldn't want a doctor who has only been practicing for a few years.

I've also owned alot of equipment. First thing I do is blow out the interior when I get something used and see how it's made.  Build quality of my Fetvalve amp is excellent, the transformer is a monster and this is coming from someone used to having amps that commonly run 300wpc or more.  Judging by the very low amount of consumer issues with problems I'd suspect that reliability is excellent, probably superior to the megadollar amps.  A dealer who sells Krell and Rotel told me that the Rotel gear is far more reliable than the Krell gear he sells. After 4 decades designing audio electronics I'm sure reliability is something that  has been continually improved as no company wants to have to fix something for a customer because it costs them money which is pure profit. This of course is besides word of mouth with in these days of the internet is very important.

This Fetvalve amplifier I have has impressed me greatly. I've owned many SS amps over the years and they all are very similar. The Van Alstine amp however is the most clean and natural in timbre I've owned. I should add that I did have a Blue Circle BC 24 which was right up there also but cost quite a bit more for only 80wpc instead of 250wpc like the Van Alstine amp. The Fetvalve is a hybrid with a tube front end(where tubes are superior to transistors btw) so that will probably have something to do with the sound.  It doesn't sound tube at all though. For 2200 for a brand new 250wpc amp at this level of quality is truly a bargain. Of course AVA does have the advantage of selling direct eliminating the usual 40-50% markup a dealer must charge to stay in business. 

Van Alstine only uses parts that are proven to be of high quality by them.  The sound quality is outstanding and as far as reliability I've got a feeling of confidence due to the many many years of practice the company has.  If you want the best sound, reliability and a solid company I don't see how someone can go wrong with Van Alstine equipment. 

[MarkM]

One thing you should consider is that Frank has been at this for 4 decades or so.  For 2200 for a brand new 250wpc amp at this level of quality is truly a bargain. Of course AVA does have the advantage of selling direct eliminating the usual 40-50% markup a dealer must charge to stay in business. 

Van Alstine only uses parts that are proven to be of high quality by them.  The sound quality is outstanding and as far as reliability I've got a feeling of confidence due to the many many years of practice the company has.  If you want the best sound, reliability and a solid company I don't see how someone can go wrong with Van Alstine equipment. 

Exactly why I ordered a Fet Valve Ultra 550 last Wednesday.  Now the waiting.....

[warnerwh]

One thing that always has bothered me is to people talking about the build quality and parts quality of this gear. I only have the one Van Alstine amp to examine but I'm sure it's representative of the entire line regarding parts and build quality.

The faceplate is not 1/4" thick. How can that matter? It's plenty thick enough to not bend or dent unless you drop it or hit it with a hammer. What piece of electronic gear wouldn't be damaged this way? The RCA's and binding posts are more than adequate. I had some cheap ICs I had been using on this amp which gripped the RCA's extremely tight and had to remove them a few times to pop the top while switching tubes when I first got it and they're still fine. The only RCA's I've ever had get loose on me were on an Audio Research preamp and a Conrad Johnson power amp I had. Btw the Conrad Johnson power amp  can't even compete well with the Rotel 991 I'm using to drive the bass drivers on my speakers.

This amp has 22 screws holding the cover on. That's far more than I've ever seen. It's so many that swapping tubes is a pain in the ass unless you leave half of them out, that still leaves 11. The gauge of the cover is easily as thick as the 3,000 Innersound (Coda) amp I had, maybe thicker but for sure more rigid. Once again if someone could explain what needs to be stronger and why I'd like to know. Personally I try to be very careful with my electronics handling it with great care. Even our el cheapo home theater receiver we've used for years has been no problem.

Black Gate and Wima caps are not the only good caps made. They're just caps that alot of people think are superior sounding to other manufacturers capacitors. I doubt they're more reliable than capacitors made by other companies but their names are mentioned alot on audio forums. In the end though the sound coming out of the speakers from the amp is all that matters. Just like a race car just needs to finish the race and win.

If someone really wanted to have a thick face plate you could probably go to a machine shop and have one made. It will cost a few hundred bucks to have this designed, machined, anodized and silkscreened but will be thicker than the stock faceplate. It won't make the sound any better. If you want similar quality sound but a thick faceplate and brand name caps you can buy an amp by someone else for double the money. I'd bet this 4,000 dollar amp would do well to perform as well however. And as I stated in my earlier post a dealer told me that he had been tired of Krell gear, which he owns btw, because it has cause him so much grief. I'm not putting down Krell gear as it's good, well made gear, but way over priced imo. If I had ten million dollars knowing what I know now I'd still be using this Fetvalve amp. Only one other audio manufacturer over the years has impressed me with the performance per dollar and that's a speaker designer. In both cases they've been in business a very long time for an audio manufacturer.

Best of luck to you Mark with your new amp. I'm sure you'll be quite impressed. I'd like to have an unfair shootout against 10K dollar amps and see how this amp fares. I have a suspicion it could win

[avahifi]

And all the screws are machine screws into pressed in PIMS nuts in the receiving metal.  No sheet metal screws to strip out are used.  We suggest our build quality is pretty darned good.

Frank Van Alstine

[rustneversleeps]

When the US Army tested the reliability of their service pistols, they put thousands of rounds through them, they looked for numbers of jam, accuracy, part breakage, failure due to overheating, corrosion..... And the beratta won the contract.

When I test the hardware in audio equipment, I look for the possibility of failure from day to day useage.

As far as Franks equipment, I have not seen it all, but I notice a few things. The earlier Pas 4 preamp chassis had better bracing (from a picture), the later ones, once the top cover's taken off, the whole chassis becomes flimsy.

When you connect the cables (not oversized) to the RCA jacks with the cover off, the whole backplane would bend and get pushed in, that's when the RCA jacks are new and tight. After a few times of jacking in and out, the RCA jacks start lossing their grip, a hundred more times of cable swapping, (of course I stopped right there), the RCA jacks would definitely become loose and cause signal dropout.

As I stated before, I measured the diameter of the center conductor of two types of RCA cables, the radio shack brand, and the monster cable, actually the center conductors on both are about the same size, the shielding on the Monster cable are larger and has tighter grip, but that would only scrap and scratch the plating off the ground of the RCA jack, and has nothing to do with sretching the center contact.

If once you connect the cables to the AVA RCA jacks and leave them alone, it'll probably be OK.

The Fetvalve amp chassis are based on the similiar design as the preamp, but with heavier gauge steel, so it appears to be stronger.

If you do the hardware reliability test on a Krell and AVA, Krell would win.

Speaking as from a consumer's point of view, I would be more than happy to pay for the extra $ to get better RCA jacks, heavy duty switches, and better bracing on the chassis. Will these extra items make the equipment sound any better? Probably not, but the pride of ownership is what counts.

I don't want to hear anything like "why don't you spend thousands more and buy a Krell then?", My question to you is "why not spend a few more dollars and make AVA a better product?"

[avahifi]

Hey Rusty, are you talking about one of our old anodized aluminum chassis units discontinued years ago?  The current production steel chassis EC and SL chassis are just as heavy a gauge as the amplifiers, and you are going to need a bulldozer to flex them.

Comparing our current chassis to a Dyna Pat-4 is simply an outrage.

Jacks,  Lets see, about $15 each or more our cost for audiophlake grade jacks, the EC needs thirty of them, want the prices to go up $300 or so just to make you happy?

Methinks you complain too much.

Frank Van Alstine

[budyog]

I just want to know who in the heck unplugs there IC's even close to 100 times? 

I think I might do it 2 times a year. That means if they start losening at about 100 times, my AVA  stuff should last me till I am 98 years old! Gee Frank, I hope you are still around. I might need my RCA's replaced.

Apparently Rustneversleeps never sleeps because he is plugging and unplugging his ICs all the time. Stop it and enjoy the stunning sound of your music playing through the built like a tank AVA audio equipment.

Why be so concerned with the internal bracing of your AVA gear when you will like me have to be concerned about the bracing of your listening environment!

[mfsoa]

Never seen or heard AVA gear.

The only Krell piece I've ever had in my home was a loaner CD player which I borrowed for a week. When I took the ICs off to return it, the outer shield of the RCA pulled off, stuck in the IC. This is the only time this has happened to me in my life.

So I think Rusty paints wih a broad brush, extrapolating long-term reliability information from, well, I'm not really sure where this data comes from. I know my experience might be a fluke, but just wanted to add a data point for consideration.

[WEEZ]

look out, folks. Ryerse Rocks hasn't weighed in to bitch on this one yet.....

(come to think of it, I wonder if rustneversleeps and Ryerse Rocks are one in the same... )

Good grief 

hey budyog,

The Best of "Cold Blood"  . wow, have to dig my Cold Blood vinyl out this afternoon.  Haven't listened to Lydia Pense in a long time.

WEEZ!

[warnerwh]

This guy Rustneversleeps must have an agenda. Since the early 70's I don't know how much audio gear I've owned but it's alot. The only pieces that ever had RCA jacks come loose were an Audio Research LS 16 preamp and a Conrad Johnson power amp. In both cases I had been very disappointed due to the fact that even the vintage gear I collect hasn't had this problem. The japanese receivers and integrateds I own don't even have gold plated rca's and they were made in the 70's. None of them have had a problem with rca's getting loose. I'm sure the RCA's on this stuff is about as low budget as it gets.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with Krell or any other high end gear. I'm just saying it's over priced for what you get. The fact my dealer friend told me that the Krell gear has a higher failure rate than the Rotel gear he also sells says alot.

[Ryerse Rocks]

I guess I'll weigh in. Some of you AVA followers would rather die than have someone suggest that something you own from AVA may not be perfect. Just to appease y'all, here goes. AVA makes the best darn audio equipment on the planet. Fell better now?

[TjMV3]

I guess I'll weigh in. Some of you AVA followers would rather die than have someone suggest that something you own from AVA may not be perfect. Just to appease y'all, here goes. AVA makes the best darn audio equipment on the planet. Fell better now?

Interestingly,  I've seen no one claiming AVA gear is perfect. 

Rather,  I see you nit-picking and kicking AVA gear in the ass every opportunity you get.

Huge difference from what you so claim up above. 

Nonetheless,  that comment about changing ICs over 100 times,  is still the most hilariously absurd and irrelevent comment,  I have read in a very long time.

If one is changing ICs over 100 times,  then you have a problem with OCD (obsessive-compulsive disorder)

Sit down.  Relax.  Enjoy the music. 

[warnerwh]

Actually I could care what anybody else thinks of my gear. I buy what I want. As far as people that try to discuss something that is somewhat over their head I have to weigh in.

Being 53 and having been in this hobby since the early 70's I've known a long time that what someone prefers boils down to personal taste. No gear is perfect and I really don't care if it is or not. It's good enough that I enjoy it immensely. This includes the Rotel power amp I use for my bass drivers I think I spent about 500 bucks on or my vintage system with Dynaco A 25's.

If someone wants to criticize anything they can. Criticizing something is the easiest thing to do and any moron can do it. Having an agenda or an insultory tone just makes it worse however. As I stated earlier this hobby, like cars, is based on personal preference. It's for enjoyment and a luxury. My stereo has nothing to do with me as a person. People who have to cut other people or things down usually have somewhat of an inferiority complex that is usually deserved

[Spirit]

Well said Warner.  This is a hobby for most... not a congressional hearing.
BTW.......I AM GOING TO THE FEST!!!!!!!