[SET Man]

Hey!

   Okay, yesterday I took a measurement of my system respond using Radio Shack SPL meter and Rives Audio Test CD2 with chart that printed out from their site.

   After I finished connecting the dots I see that there are some suck out at 100Hz and 400Hz. But everything else seem respectable for a back horn loaded 6" single driver. With some lower bass bump between 31Hz to 80Hz.

  So, I did some research and it turn out that the likely cost of the suck out at 100Hz  is that I placed my speaker with front of the driver at 34" to the back wall.

With that in mind I was looking for some other way to set up my speaker. Than I remembered the Cardas Golden Ratio speaker set up method. So I went on their site and by using the auto calculator there I came up with the number.

My previous set up was 34" from back wall and about 23" from side wall. Using Cardas I set them up at 52" out and 32" from the side wall.

Okay, what did I found out about this? Well, I did not take measurement but I think I got rid of that 100Hz suck out some what. True that the sound was cleaner. BUT! this throw off the balance of the sound of my system! The bass re enforcement was lower and overall system sound bright. I couldn't stand it!

So, tonight I push my speaker back in as before at 34" but I did pulled them in from the side wall more than before at 30" close to Cardas recommended 32" Than I toe them in a bit and play with my listening chair of which I now sit a bit closer to the system.

Well, the sound is back and a bit better with speaker further from the side wall and I'm sitting a bit closer.

I've never used any method like this to set up speaker before. Usually I first set them up of where I think is best than fine tune it with my ears over a few days or weeks sometime.

So, I guess there is no such thing as a perfect speaker set up method. But does anyone here using Cardas method and actually like it and stick with it?

Take care,
Buddy
 

[accentstryping]

 I tried it in my room and thought it would be better to just get headphones

                                                                                   MMM

ps... JCassler has this neet cup your hands around your ears,deal for room reflections it really changes/focus's the sound.

[John Casler]

My previous set up was 34" from back wall and about 23" from side wall. Using Cardas I set them up at 52" out and 32" from the side wall.

Okay, what did I found out about this? Well, I did not take measurement but I think I got rid of that 100Hz suck out some what. True that the sound was cleaner. BUT! this throw off the balance of the sound of my system! The bass re enforcement was lower and overall system sound bright. I couldn't stand it!

Hi Buddy,

I might be mistaken, but you didn't "get rid" of the 100hz suckout, you just moved it away from your listening/measuring position.  Unless you change room dimensions, or add many bass traps, (or possibly equalize) it will manifest somewhere in the room.

The "brightness" you spoke of might be because of two elements:

1) You were more nearfeild and the rooms comb filtering and reflections didn't have time to soften the sound, and the nearer direct sound took precedence over some of the room sound.

2) The reduced bass overtones and harmonic links to the MR and HF were also reduced to allow you to hear more "raw" sound.

I might suggest that (if possible) you try the speakers "out" from the wall again, but inch by inch, move your listening position back until it all snaps into place (if it will).

That would alter the position of the 100hz problem (maybe) and allow you to sit farfeild again.  Downside is, that it might cause other modes/nodes and reflections to rear their ugly heads.  Upside is you find a much better compromise of good and bad effects on the sound that please you more.

[bpape]

In addition, your speakers sound as though they almost require some wall reinforcement for their planned response.  The forwardness and brightness may well be just the lack of bottom end reinforcement. 

Hey, whatever works in your room with your speakers is the way to go.  That's why anyone that tells you that there is always only one way to set up speakers in a room isn't doing you any favors.  Every speaker is different.  Every room is different.  The interaction of a particular speaker in a particular room is VERY different.

Bryan

[SET Man]

Hey!

   John, good point. You are right about the brightness. But I did played with the sitting position from far to near. Did not work. Still doesn't sound right.

Well, the system sound great in my previous apartment  of which was smaller before I moved here at my current place. I did a mesurement just to see how is compare to what I'm hearing... of which is pretty good.

 Bryan, yup you are right. They are designed to have some reinforcment from the back wall/corner.... Well, I know becuse I built them myself. They are always been placed closer to the wall... well closer than most other type of speaker.

    This thread would not happended if I did not taken the measurement.  But as a DIYer I can't help wonder about it. No don't get me worng I do not based everything on measurement alone. I always play it by ears first than use the measurement just for comparison.

     Well, overall the measurement ain't bad... pretty good for this type of speaker.  I guess I could live with that 100hz suck out. It doesn't bother me. I'm sure I could come up with something to help that at bit. But, Man! if I could get rid of that 100Hz suck out than it would be near perfect... measurement wise.

Anyway, thanks all for your comment. Good to know that I could always find help here at the AC

Take care,
Buddy

   

   

[JLM]

I use Cardas in my dedicated listening room (8ft x 13ft x 21 ft) and like it (a 68 inch equalateral triangle with speakers about 60 inches from the narrow back wall and 40 inches from the long walls).  Yes, it does take getting used to as it sounds alot like headphones at first.  But there is imaging "magic" as you enter "the" chair.  BTW aiming my drivers slightly behind "the" chair, versus in front of it, improved imaging greatly.  As always, so much of proper imaging is due to proper recording practices.  And IMO use of a very coherent speaker like a single driver design or well designed 2-way mini-monitor is essential for nearfield listening.

I have six GIK 244 panels and like you use single driver speakers.  Don't know your drivers, but the usual suspects (Lowther and Fostex brands) have always sounded to me just as you described after trying Cardas (forward, thin, bright).  OTOH it would take time to acclimate to a new sound.  (You mentioned that the 100 Hz suck out doesn't bother you.  I might suggest that you've simply acclimated to it.)  I prefer speakers that have a roll off that account for typical room gain, but do not require a corner/wall for good bass response.  Remarkable though that you found a bass bump down to 31 Hz from a single 6 inch driver.

Moved in last October and was changing equipment over the winter.  Summer came and I started working on the new yard.  My set up includes only a Squeeze Box as a source (still ripping CD's so never thought about ripping a test CD).  I too have only a cheap RS spl meter.  Thanks for the thread, this will be my first step towards tweaking the compensation circuit.  I'll pull an old CD player from the living room and report back.  I'd be interested in knowing your speaker design, room size, and what the measurements are using the Cardas set up.

[zybar]

Hey!

   John, good point. You are right about the brightness. But I did played with the sitting position from far to near. Did not work. Still doesn't sound right.

Well, the system sound great in my previous apartment  of which was smaller before I moved here at my current place. I did a mesurement just to see how is compare to what I'm hearing... of which is pretty good.

 Bryan, yup you are right. They are designed to have some reinforcment from the back wall/corner.... Well, I know becuse I built them myself. They are always been placed closer to the wall... well closer than most other type of speaker.

    This thread would not happended if I did not taken the measurement.  But as a DIYer I can't help wonder about it. No don't get me worng I do not based everything on measurement alone. I always play it by ears first than use the measurement just for comparison.

     Well, overall the measurement ain't bad... pretty good for this type of speaker.  I guess I could live with that 100hz suck out. It doesn't bother me. I'm sure I could come up with something to help that at bit. But, Man! if I could get rid of that 100Hz suck out than it would be near perfect... measurement wise.

Anyway, thanks all for your comment. Good to know that I could always find help here at the AC

Take care,
Buddy

   

Buddy,

While what you did is a good start, 1/3 octave measurements aren't really going to allow you to pinpoint your issues.

You really need to do 1/6 or 1/12 octave measurements.  Once you do this you will really see things in a different light and be better able to address the placement issues.

George

[Ethan Winer]

George,

> You really need to do 1/6 or 1/12 octave measurements. Once you do this you will really see things in a different light and be better able to address the placement issues. <

You beat me to it, and even 1/12 octave is not fine enough resolution to see the true response. Just to make this perfectly clear for all, the graph below shows the same measurement displayed simultaneously at both 1/3 and 1/12 octave resolution. The ETF software I use can resolve down to 0.7 Hz, which makes the peaks and nulls appear even worse than 1/12 octave. The higher the resolution you display, the closer you are to seeing the room's true response.

--Ethan

[SET Man]

Hey!

  Ethan and George, thanks for the tip. But I just have to use what I have.... eventhough is 1/3 but it is better than nothing.

JLM, I see that you have the FTA-2000... Man! those are bass monster of single driver. I'm sure that you could pull them out more in to the room since they don't really need much corner/wall bass reinforcment.

My room is smaller than your at 17.5'x10'x8'(H) Bigger than my previous place. As for my speaker. I have a TQWT with 6" Fostex FE167E. The TQWT are pretty big. The line are tuned lower than the fs of the driver. With corner loaded I get bass pretty low for 6" Although the low is there but it lack the impact of the bigger woofer. Pretty good overall, me and many people are amazed of how much I could get out of those 6" Fostex. Talking about bass... in my pervious place of which was smaller I remembered that there were not much bass around 30Hz like I have right now in a bigger room.... so it must be the room too. Oh! by the way here is the picture of my room...



By the way , the speaker are longer set up like that in the picture. They are closer to the back wall and are closer together further from the side wall.

Actually, I kindna enjoy the sound of my current set up right now... a bit of bump in lower bass made my rock/pop/electronic musics sound fun! But when I put on a nice jazz, acoutics music the sound is a bit too much bass

Oh! anyway, I'm giving up on so called "set up method" I'm just going to use my ears first like I always have and than fine tune it with measurement later. I might pull out my speaker abit and try to find a good compromised spot.

I will take time and play around when I have time.
Take care,
Buddy