Anyone heard the five channel Butler hybrid amp?

Mad DOg · « **Reply #20 on:** 14 Jun 2003, 06:26 am »

john b.

congrats! please let us know what you think of the amp!

i hope you like it...

JohnR · « **Reply #21 on:** 14 Jun 2003, 02:41 pm »

FWIW, my comment was referring to two things -- one, this amp is a hybrid not a tube amp; two, he's making generalizations that are not really true at all.

John B · « **Reply #22 on:** 16 Jun 2003, 02:42 am »

For those who may be interested in the Butler amp, I have corresponded with Luis del Castillo of Butler Audio about what has been said here, in regards to the demo where the 5150 was judged as bright. I'm not going to go into detail about his response, but suffice it to say he put that demo into perspective for me, and I am now once again VERY excited about getting the 5150. I should have some initial impressions in a couple of weeks.

Mad DOg · « **Reply #23 on:** 16 Jun 2003, 03:10 am »

Quote from: John B

...I'm not going to go into detail about his response, but suffice it to say he put that demo into perspective for me, and I am now once again VERY excited about getting the 5150. I should have some initial impressions in a couple of weeks.

I don't know what Luis told you, and honestly what he said doesn't matter to me but keep in mind that he is trying to SELL you HIS PRODUCT whereas, I have nothing to gain in sharing my experience with you. Also I have nothing against Luis. He's a very nice guy.

All we did was unplug the interconnects from my amp into the Butler 5150. That's all. Nothing else was changed. And I did want to like the amp due to all the positive things I have read about tube gear being more mellow and what not, but this simply wasn't the case during the in home audition.

Bottom line is as long you like what you hear when you get it, then it's all good. After all, we all hear things differently!

John B · « **Reply #24 on:** 16 Jun 2003, 04:21 am »

Mad Dog,

Nothing aganist your equipment, but the thought of driving a high resolution amp via a Receiver's pre-amp is not a "demo" I would put much stock in. Same situation as with my friend who I visited today. I'd sold him my Dynaudio Special 25 speakers, AVA Fet amp and AVA Transcendence 7 pre-amp. He'd heard this combo at my place and was thoroughly thrilled with it. I warned him that he'd need to replace his $300 Sony CD player though. And after hooking everything up last week he was less than thrilled with the sound. So today I took over my Consonance SACD player. He wanted to be sure that if he invested in a high end source there really would be a difference. You should have seen the smile on his face when we quit listening to his Sony and put on the Consonance player. Just goes to show you that you can take great separates, put one less than stellar piece in the chain, and totally wreck your sound.

Now as for the construction of the player, in regards to the case, how can a design that uses a housing that is over twice the thickness used by any other manufacturer, that they are aware of, and call it cheap?

Luis also said that all Butler products have a 14 day return policy. If you don't love it, return it. So far they haven't had any returns

Mad DOg · « **Reply #25 on:** 16 Jun 2003, 04:54 am »

Quote from: John B

Mad Dog,

Nothing aganist your equipment, but the thought of driving a high resolution amp via a Receiver's pre-amp is not a "demo" I would put much stock in...

John B.,

Luis mistakenly assumed my preamp was a receiver...

In my experience, all other things being equal, I've never heard replacing a component that was known to be warmer in characteristic, to alter a system's sound so much that it became harsh.

And if I recall correctly, Luis was explaining how everything sounded SOOO much clearer and better with his amp hooked up. In fact he was very complimentary of the sound of the Butler amplifier in MY SETUP and never once mentioned that by replacing my preamp (or receiver in Luis' words), the sound would improve immensely as a result of improved system synergy...

Once again, i will remind you that I have no vested interested in your purchase...Luis on the other hand has something to gain. Bottom line is that it's your money and as long as you are happy, that's what's important! Happy listening!

Mad DOg · « **Reply #26 on:** 16 Jun 2003, 05:10 am »

John B.,

Actually I had 2 setups the day that Luis came out...

HT and 2 Channel.

If Luis really felt that the demo did not truly allow his amp to shine in my HT setup, he should have mention it and suggested we run it through my 2 channel setup which was much better IMHO. He never once mentioned how the setup was substandard as he explained how dynamic everything sounded during the opening battle scene of Gladiator...See how this sounds so good? See how that sounds so good?

I was running Aragon Palladium IIs for amps with a Adcom GFP-565 pre in bypass mode using a DVD player as a transport feeding Perpetual Tech gear for DAC and upsampling purposes. While I certainly know that this is not the best gear available, this setup offer much more detail, warmth and resolution than my HT setup.

I am not a dealer and I have brought my Onix Ref 1 speakers over to other listening sessions and am familiar enough with my speakers to know when the sound is not ideal and offer alternative setups and solutions to allow them to play as they were meant to shine. So how is it that a DEALER would allow a "subpar" demo to occur when they are out to sell their product. Wouldn't they want their product to be shown in the best possible light? I think so...

But all of this matters not...I just wanted to lay out all the facts since Luis mentioned that the demo was not ideal...

Mad DOg · « **Reply #27 on:** 16 Jun 2003, 05:27 am »

Quote from: John B

...I warned him that he'd need to replace his $300 Sony CD player though. And after hooking everything up last week he was less than thrilled with the sound. So today I took over my Consonance SACD player. He wanted to be sure that if he invested in a high end source there really would be a difference. You should have seen the smile on his face when we quit listening to his Sony and put on the Consonance player. Just goes to show you that you can take great separates, put one less than stellar piece in the chain, and totally wreck your sound.

John B.,

I understand the importance of system synergy...Your friend's experience does not surprise me. The most important components in the audio chain from personal experience are first and foremost, the speakers followed by the source player then preamp. The amp has the least amount of effect on the system relatively speaking. A crappy source would send a crappy signal to the preamp and amp. However in my personal experience in direct a/b comparisons between the Aragon, Parasound Halo A-23, Bryston 2-B, Acurus A125x5, and Parasound HCA-855...the amps won't dramatically change the quality of the source signal. There are differences but not as major as changes in the source or the preamp...

Maybe the Butler is special in this regard?

I'm don't have a whole lot of experience with tubes so this might be the case.

John B · « **Reply #28 on:** 16 Jun 2003, 02:58 pm »

Quote

I was running Aragon Palladium IIs for amps with a Adcom GFP-565 pre in bypass mode using a DVD player as a transport feeding Perpetual Tech gear for DAC and upsampling purposes.

Maybe the Butler is special in this regard? I'm don't have a whole lot of experience with tubes so this might be the case.

Ummmmm....you actually should have been in good shape with that combo. Though I have found that with adding more "revealing" equipment into your audio chain, the more component mismatches are a factor, even with gear at the same "level" of quality. In this case I think your last statement is probably the key. And not with your experience with "tubes", but with your experience with hybrid designs. This will be my second hybrid amp; what I found with the Van Alstine design was that the sound got very "intense"

I really liked it in comparison to the very tame and processed sound I'd gotten previously with all solid solid state designs. I felt it brought me closer to the "live" feel of the music. However, with revealing components like the Special 25 speakers, that intenseness got sometimes a little too intense. It's why I sold the Special 25's and got the less revealing Contour 3.4's. I wanted what I heard with the hybrid design, but I knew I'd need to tailor my system for it. There may be relatively small differences with solid state amps, but from my experience with the hybrid varities they do add a significant tonal change to one's system. The other thing I found to be key with the Van Alstine hybrid amp was my power conditioner. Frank feels Power Conditioners do nothing for his designs; this prompted me to did a little a/b with the amp on my VansEvers Unlimiter, and then plugged directly into the wall outlet. What I found with the conditioner was that the sometimes piercing high's that the amp revealed on some material became much smoother, more musical.

It would be nice if we could just plug in play this cutting edge gear that's being offered these days. But I've found that the more revealing the equipment the more "tweaks" become a factor, and even to the point that the "tweaks" are no longer "tweaky", but rise to the level of "critical" components.

Mad DOg · « **Reply #29 on:** 16 Jun 2003, 05:46 pm »

Quote from: John B

...Though I have found that with adding more "revealing" equipment into your audio chain, the more component mismatches are a factor, even with gear at the same "level" of quality...

I agree with you 100% on this! I, too, have found this to be the case in experimenting w/ stuff.

Mad DOg · « **Reply #30 on:** 16 Jun 2003, 05:58 pm »

Quote from: John B

...This will be my second hybrid amp; what I found with the Van Alstine design was that the sound got very " intense" I really liked it in comparison to the very tame and processed sound I'd gotten previously with all solid solid state designs. I felt it brought me closer to the "live" feel of the music...

Ahhhh...Now that you've shared this bit of info, I think the Butler is right in your ballpark...How it compares to the Van Alstine and how you'll like it, I'm not sure. But I do hope it works out for you! Please let me know!

I also know what you mean about ss designs...I'm starting to do some research on tubed preamps to get some of the "realism" without the brightness in my music.

John B · « **Reply #31 on:** 24 Jun 2003, 07:22 pm »

Just how good this Butler amp will be in my system will be revealed this Thursday

The amp and two pair of the Synergistic Resolution Reference X series interconnects are on their way!

EDS_ · « **Reply #32 on:** 24 Jun 2003, 11:29 pm »

Please..........I'd like to know your impressions.

Mad DOg · « **Reply #33 on:** 25 Jun 2003, 01:05 am »

Quote from: John B

Just how good this Butler amp will be in my system will be revealed this Thursday The amp and two pair of the Synergistic Resolution Reference X series interconnects are on their way!

looking forward to reading your opinion!

John B · « **Reply #34 on:** 28 Jun 2003, 09:24 am »

This is one helluva good amplifier! And it's not even close to broken in yet. It is NOT a bright sounding component, at least not with my associated equipment. It's got a very balanced sound, with even more musical realism than my former tube hybrid, the AVA 350EX amp, could produce. I've been listening to it in two channel since Thursday, but late last night I hooked it up for 5-ch playback and put on some of my DTS/DD surround sound concert discs. My Dynaudio rears were definitly being underpowered before, they came alive under the Butler tube drivers. My impression here was that the digital "edge" that is a characteristic with the DVD sound formats was smoothed out. I felt that I was getting more of the music without being subjected to the harshness that comes with the compressed medium. A simply wonderful first couple of days with this new amp. I'll report back with more as time goes on.

Woodsea · « **Reply #35 on:** 28 Jun 2003, 02:00 pm »

Thanks for the heads up JohnB. I really think this would fit into my house well.

Mad DOg · « **Reply #36 on:** 28 Jun 2003, 04:35 pm »

John B,

Good to hear that you like your new amp!

Thanks for sharing your impressions! Just goes to show that everyone hears things differently...

John B · « **Reply #37 on:** 7 Jul 2003, 02:56 pm »

I finally had my buddy over on Saturday to check out my new gear. He's a long time audiophile who runs Manley Amps in his setup. After listening to the discs he brought over to do his evaluation, he looks at me and says, "You're done my friend. Don't even think of selling anything in your current setup till you talk to me. You have created a very special sound with this group of components."

He's heard many incarnations of my setup and this is the first time he's ever expressed "a passion" for what he's heard with my gear choices. I think I have a winner here.

He's been searching for an amp to match the Manley's he uses for his mains, going through several, including his current Musical Fidelity amps for the balance of his channels. He asked me for my dealer's contact info. He said the Butler has a musical sound qualtiy that would be a better match to his Manley's. I gave him my dealer contact info. and he left as one happy audiophile.

satfrat · « **Reply #38 on:** 22 Jul 2003, 09:15 am »

Well John, you`ve had the tube amp for a couple of weeks now, anything to report on it, any negatives? I`ve heard from asking around that it`s great with music but way too slow for HT. How are the dynamics, does it have that solid state UMPH, or is just tube-like laid-back? I ask out of interest but as this would be a major move for me besides the fact that it`s an internet ‘leap of faith’. There are allot of good amps out there in the $2000 range so your insights are much needed. Regards, Robin

John B · « **Reply #39 on:** 23 Jul 2003, 12:24 am »

Quote

I`ve heard from asking around that it`s great with music but way too slow for HT. How are the dynamics, does it have that solid state UMPH, or is just tube-like laid-back?

Slow for HT? That I don't understand. The Butler sound is unique to my experience with amps. It's actually hard to categorize. It's very detailed and transparent, with very solid and tight bass, no boominess. It's got that glorious midrange sound that you get from tubes, the bass punch you get from SS, and highs that I haven't quite experienced with any type of amp. It throws a very deep, wide and TALL soundstage. With movies it's downright INTENSE. Pacing on the amp seems natural with both music and movies. Interestingly enough with movies I find the amp to be warmer sounding than with my SACD/CD player. Which tells me it's accurately amplifying the characteristics of the source component. Which also means that what you've got hooked up to this amp will also be a factor in how much you like or don't like it. Most amps I've had had sonic charactertics that were very much in play no matter what components you were feeding it with. The Butler is extremely clean sounding, ie neutral. Which is exactly what works best with my other components. I'm really pleased with it, and hope to add the 2-ch version to my setup later this year.