[James Romeyn]

At Brian's VMPS Plant we directly A-B'd two 50uF capacitor banks on the three midrange panels of an RM30 speaker, one bank was the Auricaps, one was the TRT.  The burn-in CDP at the Plant is very very inexpensive, a toss-away piece.  Both banks were new & not burned-in.

The difference is huge & not subtle, as one would expect considering the price difference.  The TRT sounded like they were, unfortunately, worth all the extra money.  One can only assume the differences will be exponentially multiplied using purely top-notch components in front of the speakers.

Bummer.  I did NOT want to hear that difference.   

[john1970]

I own a pair of RM40s with Auricap capacitors and the local VMPS dealer (Scott Mayo at Obsession Audio) owns a pair of RM/X speakers with TRT capacitors.  IMO the TRT are a bit more transparent.  Whether they are worth the cost is all relative to the cost of the speaker.

On a speaker that retails for 5K (the RM40s) I could not justify an extra 20+% for TRT capacitors.  On a speaker like the RM/X that retails for ~13K I would go for the TRT caps given the initial cost of the speaker.  With that said, Brian has several clients that have TRT capacitors in the RM30s and smaller speakers.

Just my opinion,

John

P.S.  You can listen to the Auricap speakers and never know the difference until you hear a pair with TRT caps.  THE AURICAPS SOUND VERY GOOD.  Remember, few if any other commercial speaker companies use such expensive components in the crossovers at VMPS prices.

[James Romeyn]

John
I agree 100% w/ everything you wrote.  Several factors entered into my personal Auricap/TRT equation: My age (maybe one day I won't be able to hear the differences) & the quality of the rest of the system & the room.

I just sold RM30C/MW/MLS/CDW-passive EQ/BH5/Auricap.  Brian is now building me the same speakers w/ new 40oz magnet 6.5s/Stan Warren-recipe internal wire/nylon binding posts/outboard xo/TRT/silicone-potted xo components.  IMO a listener would primarily miss the TRT's only in a direct A-B test; fully burned-in Auricap performance is smooth & musical.

[Brian Cheney]

Kid u knott, Jim made me wear a BLINDFOLD while he switched between TRT's and other caps.  I had no trouble identifying the TRT's 100% of the time.

It's regrettable the TRT's cost as much as they do.  However, I have tried them against even more expensive caps and preferred the TRT's for transparency and naturalness.

[ka7niq]

Kid u knott, Jim made me wear a BLINDFOLD while he switched between TRT's and other caps.  I had no trouble identifying the TRT's 100% of the time.

It's regrettable the TRT's cost as much as they do.  However, I have tried them against even more expensive caps and preferred the TRT's for transparency and naturalness.

My best friend Mike has Auricap RM 40's, and I have TRT 40's.
Here are the differences I hear between our speakers.
The Auricap RM 40's sound very good indeed, but I feel the TRT's are more revealing, and they also seem, to me at least, to be more 3 dimensional.

The extra transparency of the TRT's can be a mixed blessing, because it makes the RM 40's even fussier about what is ahead of them.

To me the Auricaps are more "forgiving" seeming to "smooth out" the sound slightly, although at the expense of ultimate transparency, compared to the TRT caps.

I also hear more high frequency detail and "air" from the TRT's compared to the Auricaps.

I do not think I could hear the difference between  the TRT's and Auricaps as well as Brian can, because I do not do this for a living.

But I do think that even blindfolded I would hear the difference 3/4 of the time.

My PERSONAL opinion is that all should have TRT's in their speakers, because they are simply better capacitors, and let more of the music and spatial clues through.

Fortunately, my RM 40's came with TRT's because I was fortunate to find a used pair locally!

I have to admit that I was a bit skeptical about how good the TRT's actually were before I actually heard the difference for myself.

And, I too was under the mistaken notion that the Auricap RM 40's were "good enough".

And Yes, the Auricap RM 40's ARE very very good indeed.

But, all things being equal, a pair of Auricap RM 40's just will never sound like a TRT pair when it comes to transparency and imaging and detail, no matter what.

IF I were an RM 40 owner with Auricaps, before I threw thousands of dollars at the RM40's by buying new amps/preamps/DAC's, etc, etc, I would first upgrade to TRT caps.

In my opinion, no "wonder amp" wire, preamp, DAC, etc, can improve your speakers sound like the TRT's can.

I am sure glad my speakers have them!

[James Romeyn]

I was a vmps dealer when the TRT's first arrived.  I had just heard about the Auricaps & thought they were extremely expensive.  When I heard the TRT price I was embarrassed to even talk to customers about them, & thought the price was so high I almost felt it physically in my body as a pain in the chest.  Horsehead was the first customer w/ TRT's & he sang their praises.  There's few other things I want to upgrade except a few room acoustic items so I ordered the TRT's.  Your description above seems spot on.   

[zybar]

Kid u knott, Jim made me wear a BLINDFOLD while he switched between TRT's and other caps.  I had no trouble identifying the TRT's 100% of the time.

It's regrettable the TRT's cost as much as they do.  However, I have tried them against even more expensive caps and preferred the TRT's for transparency and naturalness.

My best friend Mike has Auricap RM 40's, and I have TRT 40's.
Here are the differences I hear between our speakers.
The Auricap RM 40's sound very good indeed, but I feel the TRT's are more revealing, and they also seem, to me at least, to be more 3 dimensional.

The extra transparency of the TRT's can be a mixed blessing, because it makes the RM 40's even fussier about what is ahead of them.

To me the Auricaps are more "forgiving" seeming to "smooth out" the sound slightly, although at the expense of ultimate transparency, compared to the TRT caps.

I also hear more high frequency detail and "air" from the TRT's compared to the Auricaps.

I do not think I could hear the difference between  the TRT's and Auricaps as well as Brian can, because I do not do this for a living.

But I do think that even blindfolded I would hear the difference 3/4 of the time.

My PERSONAL opinion is that all should have TRT's in their speakers, because they are simply better capacitors, and let more of the music and spatial clues through.

Fortunately, my RM 40's came with TRT's because I was fortunate to find a used pair locally!

I have to admit that I was a bit skeptical about how good the TRT's actually were before I actually heard the difference for myself.

And, I too was under the mistaken notion that the Auricap RM 40's were "good enough".

And Yes, the Auricap RM 40's ARE very very good indeed.

But, all things being equal, a pair of Auricap RM 40's just will never sound like a TRT pair when it comes to transparency and imaging and detail, no matter what.

IF I were an RM 40 owner with Auricaps, before I threw thousands of dollars at the RM40's by buying new amps/preamps/DAC's, etc, etc, I would first upgrade to TRT caps.

In my opinion, no "wonder amp" wire, preamp, DAC, etc, can improve your speakers sound like the TRT's can.

I am sure glad my speakers have them!

If you and your buddy don't have all the same associated gear and you are comparing speakers in different rooms, how do you know the differences you hear are because of the TRT caps?

I am not trying to say that the TRT caps aren't better, but rather that you can't possibly know from the scenario you described.

George

[ka7niq]

[/quote]

If you and your buddy don't have all the same associated gear and you are comparing speakers in different rooms, how do you know the differences you hear are because of the TRT caps?

I am not trying to say that the TRT caps aren't better, but rather that you can't possibly know from the scenario you described.

George


Well George, of course a room and different equipment will have an effect, though the RM 40's have less room sound then many speakwers.

Another friend has TRT 40's, and they too sound better then the Auricap ones do.
I hear in his TRT 40's what I hear in mine, that i do not hear in the Auricap ones.

My friend with the Auricap 40's has good equipment, possibly better then mine,, but when I had my speakers sounding good to me, they had a dimensionality and transparency that I find slightly lacking in his.

I hear the same things in my other friend Kevins TRT 40's.

And, I have little doubt that if a side by side comparison was made in ANY room, the TRT 40's would just plain sound better.

Just as amps have a sound quality, so do capacitors.

I have sold and owned many an amp, and they displayed their sonic signature in many different room and systems.

Case in point, I once owned a Krell KSA 150 amp, bright as hell.
I put it up for sale on Audiogon, and even told the buyer it was on the bright side.
He refused to listen, blamed it on my speakers and cables.preamp/room, etc.

Sure as heck, he dumped it too, 3 weeks later.





[/quote]

[BrunoB]

Kid u knott, Jim made me wear a BLINDFOLD while he switched between TRT's and other caps.  I had no trouble identifying the TRT's 100% of the time.

It's regrettable the TRT's cost as much as they do.  However, I have tried them against even more expensive caps and preferred the TRT's for transparency and naturalness.

Brian,

have you tried to bypass the Auricaps with the TRT? For instance, 4 x 10 uF Auricap with 1 x 10 uF TRT to get 50 uF. Because the  "DynamiCap boasts a virtual infinity of parallel paths through the plates" , it might be an effective bypass capacitor even with a large capacity of 10 uF.

Some intersting TRT propaganda:
http://www.trt-wonder.com/page6.html


Bruno

[Brian Cheney]

I will try the bypass trick and see what happens.

Yes, Peter goes overboard with the self-promotion.  And I'm no diplomat.  We all have flaws.

[Tunz2]

Hello guys, Im Mike, Ka7`s friend with the Auri cap 40s. For some reason my puter at home wont let me respond to posts only start one, so Im at the library because I thought it was that important to set the record straight. First of all, I will say it right off the bat, my 40s smoke Ka7`s in every way. Chris likes to place so much importance on TRT`s at the expense of the big picture. Lets looks at a few things. First of all Chris, when did you last have your 40s even hooked up? Its been some time. He likes his MMG Maggies and other assorted speakers. Second, when was the last time you sat in front of my 40s Chris? I would guess its been at least a year, maybe more, and you only live what, 3 miles away. The last time I heard your 40s they were pretty dreadful. With the Moscode and the Dared, lets just say it wasnt a match made in heaven. That was maybe 4 months ago and since that time he has been using a Ashley pro sound amp that well, sounds like pro sound. I found it not to be a good match on my 40s.

Ka7 says I might have been associated gear? Come on Chris, as I stated in an earlier post, you use a Parasound Dolby pro logic processor for a pre, I have a Carver Research Lightstar and a newly acquired PS Audio PCA 2 for pre amps. Recently sold my Sonic Frontiers Line 1se which I had for nearly the whole time I have owned 40s. My amp is a Sunfire stereo 300, thats bi-wired out to the speaks with big PS Audio Xstream plus wire on the bottom and Xindak copper/silver foil wire for the panels and tweets. Your combo of Ashley and a single run of HD 14 aint even close bro. When I told Ka7 I was intending to try the PCA 2 pre he stated "what a POS" of course he had never seen one much less heard one. Lets just say he likes to state as fact his opinions. I dont do this. I never claim to have heard things I havent listen listened to.

I recently drove accross town to hear our friend Kevin`s system again. Chris could have gone, but choose not to. Kevin has a great sound going with his vinyl, really nice. On digital I think my system might have a slight edge.

IMHO a pair of well powered Auri capped 40s will beat out a pair not so well powered TRT 40s every time. So Chris, lets invite Kevin out to listen to both our systems and see which he likes best..... Sorry for the rant guys, but when the BS gets deep enough I have to say something.

[warnerwh]

I think we need to get out the boxing gloves now so this can get settled . Tunz: I enjoy posts like yours. It gives everyone the other side of the picture.

The one thing I keep thinking however is that everybody has different tastes. I believe Kevin powers his RM 40's full range with tube amps so his opinion of what's best isn't the same as the majority. At least that's what I think is a fair guess as I've not heard his system but remember him describing his bass as somewhat loose. The bass weighs heavily for me and I'd need an SS amp on bottom, which btw I do. My point is just that there's a significant amount of grey area.

[Greg Erskine]

My point is just that there's a significant amount of grey area.

And an excellent point, both views can be correct, it just comes down to personal preference.

[Eugene2]

With all of this, the great thing is Brian makes one hell of a speaker no matter which iteration you choose.  I have been around this stuff a long time and have never enjoyed listening to speakers as much as I enjoy listening to my TRT based RM30Ms.  I have to send mine back because of a xover problem (which I have temporarily fixed) and I will miss them. 
I surrounded them with very good equipment and Virtual Dynamics Master cabling (it does make a difference), utilized room acoustical treatment and played with setup and boy do they sing!  I am sure differences in caps are magnified by each step up in equipment.  I personally feel paying extra for the TRT caps makes sense because in the RM30M you have a speaker that competes with the likes of Wilson Watts, Avalon, etc. at a much more favorable price point even with the increased cost of the caps.  

[warnerwh]

I've a friend with RM 30's and he thinks they sound better than the Wilson Watts also. Being as I've never heard the TRT cap speakers I can't comment on their sound but have found my RM 40's to be by far the most sensitive speakers to gear/room etc I've ever owned.

The reason for the extreme sensitivity I believe is the fact that they emulate real sound so closely you're more easily able to hear the differences. The planar and ribbon drivers no doubt can follow more closely the signal due to the fact they can react faster than a cone driver. Overall they're also the most enjoyable speakers I've had. So I've no doubt that the TRT caps could make an audible improvement over my Auricap equipped Rm 40's.

[ka7niq]

Hello guys, Im Mike, Ka7`s friend with the Auricap 40s. For some reason my puter at home wont let me respond to posts only start one, so Im at the library because I thought it was that important to set the record straight. First of all, I will say it right off the bat, my 40s smoke Ka7`s in every way. Chris likes to place so much importance on TRT`s at the expense of the big picture. Lets looks at a few things. First of all Chris, when did you last have your 40s even hooked up? Its been some time. He likes his MMG Maggies and other assorted speakers. Second, when was the last time you sat in front of my 40s Chris? I would guess its been at least a year, maybe more, and you only live what, 3 miles away. The last time I heard your 40s they were pretty dreadful. With the Moscode and the Dared, lets just say it was a match made in heaven. That was maybe 4 months ago and since that time he has been using a Ashley pro sound amp that well, sounds like pro sound. I found it not to be a good match on my 40s.

Ka7 says I might have been associated gear? Come on Chris, as I stated in an earlier post, you use a Parasound Dolby pro logic processor for a pre, I have a Carver Research Lightstar and a newly acquired PS Audio PCA 2 for pre amps. Recently sold my Sonic Frontiers Line 1se which I had for nearly the whole time I have owned 40s. My amp is a Sunfire stereo 300, thats bi-wired out to the speaks with big PS Audio Xstream plus wire on the bottom and Xindak copper/silver foil wire for the panels and tweets. Your combo of Ashley and a single run of HD 14 aint even close bro. When I told Ka7 I was intending to try the PCA 2 pre he stated "what a POS" of course he had never seen one much less heard one. Lets just say he likes to state as fact his opinions. I dont do this. I never claim to have heard things I haven't listen listened to.

I recently drove across town to hear our friend Kevin`s system again. Chris could have gone, but choose not to. Kevin has a great sound going with his vinyl, really nice. On digital I think my system might have a slight edge.

IMHO a pair of well powered Auri capped 40s will beat out a pair not so well powered TRT 40s every time. So Chris, lets invite Kevin out to listen to both our systems and see which he likes best..... Sorry for the rant guys, but when the BS gets deep enough I have to say something.

Whew .... talk about someone feeling threatened ?
Mike, I guess it is time for some tough love bro ?
You are a retired fireman bro, and have hearing loss, for real!
Remember when we went to buy my used Klipschorns ?
My son and I clearly heard the blown tweeter right away, but you could not.

When I first met you, you were listening to a Sony receiver and JBL L 100's.
I have been at this for over 30 years!

You own but one set of speakers, I own 10 pairs!
Both my Moscode and Dared pre amp are being repaired, and the Parasound "Processor" you claim I use also happens to be a pretty decent backup preamp that allows for total bypass of the surround functions.
It does not convert to digital, and uses a high quality volume pot.

The Ashly FET 500 amp I have is completely different then the one I left for you to try.
It has poly bypassed power supply caps, and it's feedback loop has been modified with better caps, and it has higher bias.

It  was made for Kelmar systems by Ashly for high end film screening and monitoring, and is an excellent amplifier, as verified by Jesse on his test equipment.
It is FAR from a "pro sound" amplifier.

As for you 40's sounding "better" then mine, that is a matter of opinion.
Kurt, Barry, and me were not impressed the day we came over.
In fact, the ONLY time I have ever heard your 40's sound decent was when I tuned them, and then you screwed them up again!

Remember that when Kurt and Barry came to hear your 40's, they were eagerly shopping for new speakers!

They went and both plunked down 15 grand for Vandersteen 5's, and heard the same sound at your house that I hear, a super detailed sound, devoid of musical timbre!

They were not impressed with your system, nor was I.

Take my son for example, he has grown up around high end speakers all his life, and has had my 801's at his home for two years.
He is younger then us both, and has had way more exposure to high end sound then you have.
He was not impressed with your sound either.

When you first ordered the 40's, I told you that you would need subwoofers, but you kept thinking that more power was the answer ....
Even after the Audire Parlando destroyed your woofer, you still kept thinking that you just needed more power ...
I told you that the woofers were destroyed because they reached their excursion limits, and had no more bass to give.
FINALLY, you relented, and bought a subwoofer.

I have watched you go through amp after amp, preamp after pre amp, etc, etc.
When I suggested to you that you MIGHT think about getting some better caps for your speakers, you keep alluding to your buddy in Oklahoma who has stock 40's that YOU claim are awesome, though you have never even heard them, LOL

You have deluded yourself into believing that Auricaps are "just as good" as TRT's, in total defiance of the man who builds our speakers, and who should know better then anyone, right ?

And yes, you are quite correct, I do not even have my TRT 40's hooked up at the moment.

My Moscode amp and my Preamp are both being fixed and modified, and the Adcom 585 is not here yet, and it needs mods that I plan to do before I play it.

Besides, you are quite aware that I have "house guests" who unfortunately have a bad drinking problem, and often I am not here to supervise things.

They listen to my stuff, and if they hear no sound, start turning knobs, and pushing buttons until they do!

I do NOT want a blown up pair of RM 40's on my hands, so until they leave, the 40's shall sit silently.
If the Magnepan SMGA's I paid all of 250 dollars for get toasted, RIP

Now, as for your wire, and for all the "differences" you claim to hear, lets remember you couldn't even hear a blown tweeter in a Klipschorn!

14 gauge cable in a short run is perfectly adequate to carry ALL the current any amp run on 117 VAC can deliver.

IF I were to Bi Wire, the LAST thing I would do is use different kinds of cables to do it!

And, as for Kevin comparing our systems for sound, you must be a real glutton for punishment!

Before my "house guests" got here, I had my TRT 40's singing, but I started fooling with them too much.

Your 40's never sounded as good as mine, because your room is not near as good, and you do not have TRT's.

Nor do you have 30 years in this hobby like me, and you just plain can not hear as good as I do.

This has been apparent to me for some time, confirmed by Kurt and Barry's visit, and finally proven when you failed to hear the blown Klipschorn tweeter.

I remember tuning your 40's, and getting them sounding musically true, and seeing you screw them up again.

It is true that I have not heard your system in awhile, and part of that is intentional.
Because every time I hear your "sound'  I hate to be the one to "burst your bubble".

There is no harm in engaging in delusion Mike, and I know you "think" you are a world class audiophile ....

Serious weight trainers like John Casler and my brother actually visualize themselves lifting serious weight.

If you think it, you can be it ...
What the mind can conceive and believe, it can achieve.

Maybe someday Mike .. if you address that high frequency hearing loss issue, and let people who really know what they are doing help you, it may come true.

But, in the meantime ... if you REALLY want to take on a some TRT 40's in a better room, tuned by someone with five times your experience, and NO hearing loss, let me know ?

My Moscode 600 and preamp should be fixed shortly, and the Adcom 585 is on the way, and Jesse will mod it for me quick.

BUT .... maybe JUST for you, I will tune my TRT 40's using only my "Pro Sound" amp and "surround processor"  pre amp and 14 gauge cables ?
BUT, ya gotta shut the subwoofer off, and i will turn mine off too ?

We don't need any upward masking, and we all know how loud you run your sub ?

That way, we can compare RM 40 to RM 40, NOT subwoofers to subwoofers.

Lets settle on a total of 5 selections of music, all the same.

My "house guests" should be gone by the end of September, and I will need a month after that to get everything singing.

So, tweak away Captain Audio .... and remain a legend in your own mind until then.

You is fixing to learn the hard way about the importance of speaker capacitors .....

[zybar]

Wow!!

It is usually VMPS owners vs. non-VMPS owners that we see these types of posts.

Certainly interesting...

George

[Bob Wilcox]

Waste bin fodder?

[Tunz2]

Let me say, first of all, Brian builds some of the finest speakers on the planet. I love my 40s. No it wasnt love right off the bat. I almost sold em... twice. Thank god that didnt happen. The 40s have brought me kicking and screaming into the high end. When I recieved my 40s I was pre amping with a HK reciever so yes I have gone thru some equipment to get to where I am today. Whats the most amazing thing about the rm40s, they continue to improve, even after 4years I still havent found their limit.

My friend ka7 is the master of the half truth. If you want to see how bad it is, do a search on speaker asylum. Many many times he gives opinions on speakers that I know for a fact he has never heard. No Chris, I never claimed to be the greatest audiophile in the world, just know what I like when I hear it, thats all I claim. Our friends Kurt and Barry are audio friends from Sarasota. They both have Vandy 5a`s. I didnt care for Kurts system and he didnt care for mine so guess its safe to say we have different tastes. Thats what makes the world go around. It was over 2 years since Kurt and Barry`s visit. Something Chris forgot to mention. And its been 4 years since he heard Kevins sytem. I heard Kevins setup less than a month ago. BTW, Kevin is not only an audiophile and gentlemen, but quite the piano player and singer as well. He has a beautiul grand piano in his living room that he was most gracious to play for me.

Chris, Im sure when you get your new 15 y/o Adcom teamed with your HD 14awg zip cord it will be nervana at your house. An rm40 with any XO is a world class speaker. Brian won best of show with what is now a standard XO. Im sure things get better as you move up the food chain but first you have to give what is one of the most revealing speakers in the world a good signal to work with. This is way before you need to worry about XO`s.

Chris, funny if you think mixing speaker wire is such a no no, how come people get away with biamping with SS and tubes. Pretty big difference there wouldnt you say. If you had more experience with the 40s you would know they can sound very different from wire to wire.

Fess up Chris, how many DAYS have you had your 40s even hooked up. I would guess less than two weeks total. Im ready any time to have Kevin over, but Im betting you arent.

I want to appoligize to Kevin and everyone else but I could only take so much BS.

Michael

 

[Tunz2]

George your absoulutely right. Different gear in different rooms. I would assume (and yes I know what they say about assurming) in the same room on the same gear TRT`s would be the best 40 there is. That said, once in different rooms on different gear that equation goes out the window.

Chris, are you off your meds again? Jeez bro, give me your script and I will go get it for you. I asked you not two days ago to please NOT include me in your posts. There was/is too much deception and half truths for my taste. So then you start this whole thing. Your idea to turn off the subs is a prime example of this. My room being 4X to 5X larger than your room that seems a bit self serving. Thanks but I will tune things the way I choose as you should. Ten pairs of speakers tells me, your still searching. Your right, tough love is in order.

Michael