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Also, if you ever do an impulse response measurement of a room, you can see exactly where the reflections are in time and hitting the refleciton points at those time points for first reflections absolutely does minimize those impulse 'blips.' While you may not hear them specifically as an echo, you can absolutely hear/see the change in image specifity.
Perhaps 8th nerve is using a special kind of unidirectional fiberglass - Since it is reflective on one side, that must mean that it allows sound to pass through going toward the wall, yet magically knows to absorb it on the way out!? And I guess since it is offset from the wall slightly, it also knows to let the sound in, but traps it effectively on the way out!?
Quote from: 8thnerve on 29 Aug 2006, 02:50 pmQuote from: Rob Babcock on 22 Aug 2006, 11:46 pmQuote from: 8thnerve on 22 Aug 2006, 06:33 pmListen to any small room with an adequate amount of Eighth Nerve treatments and you'll change your mind. Hey, maybe I would if you'd ever check your PMs! Any of those summer deals left? Sorry Rob. This new Audio Circle software doesn't pop up a box when I have new messages and so I never notice. It's also much harder to see what is new and what I've already read. The sale page indicates to email me and that is certainly the best way to go. I don't get PMs nearly as often. If you are having trouble reaching me via email (meaning you've sent me two emails already, and the second one said, "Hey Nathan, where are you?") then shoot me a PM (and include your email address so I can compare) to make sure your mail isn't getting lost, but that shouldn't happen, I go through ALL my spam mail to make sure I don't miss anything.At any rate, you have a PM. Best,Nathan LoyerEighth NerveYeah, I'm noticing that, too. But I also did email you and didn't get a response. Maybe it's your spam filter, or maybe a problem on my end. Anyway, I'll check my PM.
Quote from: Rob Babcock on 22 Aug 2006, 11:46 pmQuote from: 8thnerve on 22 Aug 2006, 06:33 pmListen to any small room with an adequate amount of Eighth Nerve treatments and you'll change your mind. Hey, maybe I would if you'd ever check your PMs! Any of those summer deals left? Sorry Rob. This new Audio Circle software doesn't pop up a box when I have new messages and so I never notice. It's also much harder to see what is new and what I've already read. The sale page indicates to email me and that is certainly the best way to go. I don't get PMs nearly as often. If you are having trouble reaching me via email (meaning you've sent me two emails already, and the second one said, "Hey Nathan, where are you?") then shoot me a PM (and include your email address so I can compare) to make sure your mail isn't getting lost, but that shouldn't happen, I go through ALL my spam mail to make sure I don't miss anything.At any rate, you have a PM. Best,Nathan LoyerEighth Nerve
Quote from: 8thnerve on 22 Aug 2006, 06:33 pmListen to any small room with an adequate amount of Eighth Nerve treatments and you'll change your mind. Hey, maybe I would if you'd ever check your PMs! Any of those summer deals left?
Listen to any small room with an adequate amount of Eighth Nerve treatments and you'll change your mind.
John,> If the brain can hear the frequency combination of direct and reflected sound then it can certainly hear the differing arrival times. <Yes, when the delay is long enough. At short delays, less than 20 ms (or whatever) the main issue is the skewed response caused by comb filtering. I'm not disagreeing with you, because you hit the nail on the head! Time-based problems are at least as damaging as frequency response problems.
> I make an extreme distinction between a two channel audio playback environment, and the goals involved, compared to trying to make a HT, and other venue type acoustic environments, provide accuracy, and enjoyment. <I know it's conventional wisdom that a 2-channel room should be more live than a home theater. But as I've added more and more treatment over time in my living room I've come to realize that one room can indeed sound excellent for both. It comes down to the opposing philosophies of whether the room should or should not impart its own character onto the reproduction. I have come to the conclusion that it should not. As soon as the room adds its own sound to the playback, you are no longer hearing what the mix engineers intended. The key is to avoid all early reflections. Once that's done you are hearing what the mix engineers intended. For the most part, and assuming bass and other resonances are also tamed.--Ethan
And I cannot accept the concept that the brain will "ignore" or "reconstruct" the sound. If the brain can hear the frequency combination of direct and reflected sound then it can certainly hear the differing arrival times.Please know that I don't dispute the possibility of this sounding pleasant, or to some even preferable, but it is difficult to understand a statement of similarity of an Anechoic Room versus a Full Spectrum Reflective Room, when listening to music with "time domain" function.
Interesting thoughts John. Again, you're thinking in terms of frequency response when you're addressing my 'dull and lifeless' comment. I was speaking more of a lack of room ambience regardless of FR.
If I'm treating a room for a mix of 2 channel and HT use, I tend to leave the rear of the room a bit more live and use a mix of a bit of absorbtion mixed with diffusion as I described earlier.
I'll agree that you'll never get a residential room to create an original venue - much less all venues. But I do think one can make it more capable without absolutely killing it.
To me, a completely dead room is very uncomfortable to be in and I find 2 channel music listening similar to listening to headphones.
One other thing, to me, the trick in being able to 'listen deeply into the recording' is by designing the room to be quiet - not necessarily dead. This is why isolation is so important. It's not all about keeping sound from getting out. IMO it's more important to keep it from getting in and mucking up the ambient noise floor of the room. A very quiet room with a moderate amount of treatment and good bass control will allow good, relatively smooth frequency response at many different spots in the room - not just one sweet spot.Bryan
Sure - I have a hand towel draped over the glass drink table on front of my couch for that very reason. Let's say the sound reflected off the table travels 2 feet farther so it's delayed about 2 milliseconds compared to the direct sound from a loudspeaker. That equates to one cycle at 565 Hz, but it's the half-wave that matters (180 degrees of phase shift) so the first null in the comb filter series is at 283 Hz. That's very audible! And directly explainable. I just rewrote the Frequency/Distance Calculator program for the RealTraps site, so this is all very fresh in my mind.
Nathan - so what you're saying is that if I kill the wall totally behind my listening position and leave the reflections untreated that I'll see the spikes in the impulse response disappear just because I've absorbed the highs in the room overall? What if I use 12" thick OC703 on the back wall that produces a very even absorption curve across the spectrum - do I still see them then because I didn't just absorb highs? Just want to make sure I'm understanding your point - though I don't agree with it. If it wasn't an issue then why did you remove the table? That reflection should have just blended right in - correct?
Also, the information coming off the side walls at the reflection points absolutely positively is different from that coming directly at you. Why? Because there is no speaker made that has the exact same off axis response as on axis response. As frequency changes, therefore, I have more or less reinforcement/cancellation/blending of the direct and reflected sound at different frequencies - which changes the tonal balance of the perceived sound.
Edit: I just want to add that I am starting to believe that the vast majority of "problems" that audiophiles encounter are room related. IMHO, audiophiles who cycle through countless amps, cd players, cables etc. are merely spinning their wheels. Get yourself some competent speakers and take care of the room.
Anyway, the other problem with sound treatments is the looks. Those GIK panels stand out more than a 300 lb. gorilla would in that room. Not everyone is willing to sacrifice looks for sonic nirvana... I do agree that reviewers should note the sound character of their room as part of the equation. However, most reviews state the size of their room. A little math lets me know what they're probably going to hear. -C
Anyway, the other problem with sound treatments is the looks. Those GIK panels stand out more than a 300 lb. gorilla would in that room. Not everyone is willing to sacrifice looks for sonic nirvana...
Using cords and amps are a way to work around the fixed sonic qualities of a room.