[enigma7]

are they 2 different methods in treating a room? or can they be used to compliment each other?

[fajimr]

enigma7

this doesn't directly respond to your question but I found Ethan's article to be a great primer on treating rooms in general.  I have found that most questions I ask myself (and sometimes to this forum) are answered in it.  http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html

[ctviggen]

I think they're complementary.  The 8th nerve stuff (although it should be noted that 8th nerve sells a floorstander) is typically too small to greatly influence low frequency information.  However, the should do well with higher frequency information.  And, their small size makes them easier to fit into a room.  On the other hand, I have 9 Realtraps and two ASC sub traps in my room (and would have diffusion products if I could afford the space and money), so I'm not the best person to judge the relative merits of small versus large acoustic treatments.   

[joamonte]

I found out that there are some debate in the very begining of the forum....see previous post.

Not yet finish reading but the arguement seem interesting to me...

 

[PhilNYC]

Yes, the methods are different:

"Standard acoustic panels" are used primarily to reduce/eliminate reflection at first reflection points, with the theory being that reflection points cause sound from your speakers to arrive at your ears at different times (reflected sound being delayed slightly relative to direct sound).  By absorbing the sound at the first reflection points, you reduce the reflected/delayed sound.

Eighth Nerve treatments are based on the idea that most of the sound you hear is reflected sound anyways, but that the corners and seams in your room cause amplified distortion of reflected sound at a far higher level than any slight time-based distortions caused by first reflection points.  The rectangles and triangles have a reflective front surface, and absorbtive body which helps reduce the corner distortions that affect the sound in your room.

Are they complimentary?  I've found that I am unable to hear the effects of standard acoustic panels when the Eighth Nerve stuff is in place. 

(a disclaimer, of course, that I am an Eighth Nerve dealer.  Also fwiw, I am also a dealer for "standard" acoustic panels from AcousticsFirst and also have a large number of GIK panels in my room for reasons other than first-reflection points)

[woodsyi]

I have 10 Real traps, 4 8th Nerve Corners and 4 GIK panels.  I think they are complimentary. 

Disclaimer:  Since I paid for them I am inclined to think they work wonders.

[joamonte]

Yes, the methods are different:

"Standard acoustic panels" are used primarily to reduce/eliminate reflection at first reflection points, with the theory being that reflection points cause sound from your speakers to arrive at your ears at different times (reflected sound being delayed slightly relative to direct sound).  By absorbing the sound at the first reflection points, you reduce the reflected/delayed sound.

Eighth Nerve treatments are based on the idea that most of the sound you hear is reflected sound anyways, but that the corners and seams in your room cause amplified distortion of reflected sound at a far higher level than any slight time-based distortions caused by first reflection points.  The rectangles and triangles have a reflective front surface, and absorbtive body which helps reduce the corner distortions that affect the sound in your room.

Are they complimentary?  I've found that I am unable to hear the effects of standard acoustic panels when the Eighth Nerve stuff is in place. 

(a disclaimer, of course, that I am an Eighth Nerve dealer.  Also fwiw, I am also a dealer for "standard" acoustic panels from AcousticsFirst and also have a large number of GIK panels in my room for reasons other than first-reflection points)

Yes I agree with 8th Nerve their theory of treating all corner,but I think wall treatment is also a must to get complete control of the room....



BTW different from you,even though this customer in the picture already use Eighth Nerve all over the room corner,we could still hear very much improvement in bass control and imaging/soundstage after place the QRD diffuser and Foam bass trap (double size of Arlulex LENRD at front and depth,4 times more of foam) at speaker backwall and two corner ,I think he used 8th nerve "Rectangle" at there before but couldnt cure his 60 hz peak & long reverbation problem,now he say the big foam does....... 

[PhilNYC]

Yes I agree with 8th Nerve their theory of treating all corner,but I think wall treatment is also a must to get complete control of the room....



BTW different from you,even though this customer in the picture already use Eighth Nerve all over the room corner,we could still hear very much improvement in bass control and imaging/soundstage after place the QRD diffuser and Foam bass trap (double size of Arlulex LENRD at front and depth,4 times more of foam) at speaker backwall and two corner ,I think he used 8th nerve "Rectangle" at there before but couldnt cure his 60 hz peak & long reverbation problem,now he say the big foam does....... 

I completely agree that bass traps and diffusors will provide significant additional benefits to 8th Nerve implementations.  What I said was that I found that "standard acoustic panels" (flat absorptive panels at first reflection points) made no real noticeable difference once a full 8th Nerve solution was installed.  Bass traps and diffusors serve very different purposes for acoustics.  And fwiw, this was only true for me while using the 8th Nerve ADAPT products (not the Response products).

[bpape]

The only problem I have is that if you do the corner and seams with the 8th Nerves, then you've already used the optimal places for larger bass absorbers.

Bryan

[srlaudio]

It looks to me like the 8th Nerve products are pitifully small......Anyone in the business knows that corners are the first points of attack, so it reminds me of a revealing demo I witnessed one time in a large auditorium.  A table radio was placed on a chair, turned to moderate volume..........the resulting sound easily covered the auditorium.  Does this mean we should use a table radio for a sound reinforcement system?  I think not.  It is true, however, that a little bit of good stuff is better than nothing at all, so that must be the plan.  A problem we have seen with foam is that it oxidizes into powder over time.  Fiberglas panels emit airborne fibers.  To much absorption ruins the "tone" of the room.  I like the use of the difussors in the pictures.  They should also be placed at the first reflection points on the side walls.  You will be shocked to hear how this will transform the imaging and soundfield.

[PhilNYC]

It looks to me like the 8th Nerve products are pitifully small......

All I can say is "don't knock 'em til you've tried 'em"  .  I had a particularly challenging room in my old house, and at one point had it treated with stuff from Echo Busters (5ft Phase 4 bass traps, corner triangles) and Acoustics First (first reflection points)...and still had some very big problems.  Replaced everything with a full Eighth Nerve Adapt installation, and the effects were nothing short of astounding.  Anyone from the NY Audio Rave can atest to the difference in room acoustics performance.

It is true, however, that a little bit of good stuff is better than nothing at all, so that must be the plan.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, Eighth Nerve bases their products on a different design principle than traditional room acoustics.  Not only are their products considered to be small, but they also feature a reflective surface facing into the room.  The Triangle corner products alone make a huge impact, so if you want to try them but not commit to a full room installation, I'd suggest starting with the Triangles...

[8thnerve]

It looks to me like the 8th Nerve products are pitifully small......Anyone in the business knows that corners are the first points of attack, so it reminds me of a revealing demo I witnessed one time in a large auditorium.  A table radio was placed on a chair, turned to moderate volume..........the resulting sound easily covered the auditorium.  Does this mean we should use a table radio for a sound reinforcement system?  I think not.  It is true, however, that a little bit of good stuff is better than nothing at all, so that must be the plan.  A problem we have seen with foam is that it oxidizes into powder over time.  Fiberglas panels emit airborne fibers.  To much absorption ruins the "tone" of the room.  I like the use of the diffusers in the pictures.  They should also be placed at the first reflection points on the side walls.  You will be shocked to hear how this will transform the imaging and soundfield.

From your picture with your treatments, I think we can assume you are definitely in the size matters camp.   I agree that too much absorption is a negative, and for this reason the front of the Eighth Nerve products is entirely reflective.  The only absorption is from the rear of the product which is faced into the corner, and this is designed to trap the return wave from the corner, the cause of echo and distortion in a room.  Placing diffusors anywhere in a room will certainly make difference by randomizing the reflections resulting in a perceived reduction of echo, but I liken this technique to adding noise to a signal to mask low level problems.  The cause of the echo and distortion in the first place is the corners of the room.  By eliminating the return wave from the corner, we are stopping echo before it begins.  And reducing the distortion also caused by the corners results in a flattening of the frequency response and an increase in the linearity and level of the upper frequencies.  See below:

These results were achieved with only a few pieces (6 Rectangles and 4 Triangles); a pitifully small amount by your estimation I would guess.  I could make these products as large as I want, but this size is most effective for reducing this type of distortion, and gives results that are far superior to any other type of acoustic treatment available in terms of subjective and measured performance.

Best Regards,

Nathan Loyer
Eighth Nerve

[srlaudio]

      Yes, we do large rooms as well as small, and to effect a change in a large room, you need large modules.  In addition, the size of our diffusion modules is dictated be the complete sequence of the Shroeder equations we use rather that WAF, marketing dept, or beancounters.

      We have known for decades that corners, especially trihedral ones are detrimental to audio.  We ascribe to the method of "taking them out" by building soffits all around the perimeter that could incorporate "phase grates" of hardwood boards on the face, to give diffusion as well as absorption to the room.  below the soffit, the same plan achieves bass trapping as well as some desirable reflections.

      It is interesting to us how leading professionals such as George Massenburg have used diffusion on entire walls, such as his mix room at Blackbird Studio here in Nashville.

     I believe that larger diffusion panels totally change the reflection from a flat wall.  This is not masking anything, this is replacing the flat wall reflection with a pleasant, airy sound.  The comments we have heard from engineers, who must sit and focus intensely on the sound for hours is that their fatigue is minimized, it is easier to hear eq changes, the mixes hold up on other systems, and that they crave to listen to other mixes in this environment. These are the type of experiences we want to provide for our customers.

[PhilNYC]

Don...am curious to hear what your definition of a "large room" is. 

I'd also recommend that since both you and Nathan are in Nashville, you guys get together sometime...

[srlaudio]

I'm Allen, not Don, I was listening to Don....

     I am not opposed to that...I don't think we are after the same customers.

     "Large Rooms" are 1. auditoriums and churches of any size and 2. in recording studios we consider a large room equal to or greater than 1000 sq ft with minimum 20 ft ceiling height.