Preamps with the D100/D200?

Grover · « **on:** 11 Jul 2006, 03:39 pm »

I'm wondering if anyone has played around with different preamps paired with the CIA D100 or D200?
Does an active preamp just add its own coloration and you'd be better off with a passive? Does a tube preamp make the amps sound "tubey"?
I can't say I'm much of a fan of solid state active preamps, so I'd probably just go passive or active/tube if I get the D100s, which I'm considering. Thanks.

Charles Calkins · « **Reply #1 on:** 11 Jul 2006, 04:12 pm »

grover:

I am running a Frank Van Alstine T7ECR pre driving my D-200's Very good results. My search for pres and amps are over for many years to come.

Cheers
Charlie

oneway · « **Reply #2 on:** 11 Jul 2006, 04:50 pm »

Using the lamb LL2 Deluxe with very fine results with the D-200s. The combo gives sound that is tube-like in realism with no noticable tube downside.

gongos · « **Reply #3 on:** 11 Jul 2006, 07:24 pm »

I use no preamp. Have tried a number of preamps, but my system always sounds better w/o one.

kfr01 · « **Reply #4 on:** 11 Jul 2006, 08:29 pm »

gongos:

How do you control volume?

mfsoa · « **Reply #5 on:** 11 Jul 2006, 11:42 pm »

My D200s are fed by a Superphon Revelation III which replaced a Forte Model 40.

I haven't compared the Sphon to other competing units, so I can't offer much in the way of comparison.
But what I hear is oxymoronic - Incredible bass drive, even at low volume, yet not at all muddy. Clarity, detail and openness galore from top to bottom, yet full-bodied and tonally balanced at the same time. Super-accurate yet not fatiguing. (VSR VR4JRs)

Although the pre has no gain and the amps are the 26db version, I have plenty of volume from a modded Rotel CDP.

Another happy CIAudio camper.

gongos · « **Reply #6 on:** 11 Jul 2006, 11:46 pm »

Quote from: kfr01 on 11 Jul 2006, 08:29 pm

gongos:

How do you control volume?

I use my PC as a source so I can control the volume with foobar.

audioferret · « **Reply #7 on:** 12 Jul 2006, 03:12 am »

Quote from: gongos on 11 Jul 2006, 11:46 pm

Quote from: kfr01 on 11 Jul 2006, 08:29 pm
gongos:

How do you control volume?

I use my PC as a source so I can control the volume with foobar.

Then, by definition - aren't you using a preamp?

gongos · « **Reply #8 on:** 12 Jul 2006, 03:44 am »

Quote from: audioferret on 12 Jul 2006, 03:12 am

Quote from: gongos on 11 Jul 2006, 11:46 pm
Quote from: kfr01 on 11 Jul 2006, 08:29 pm
gongos:

How do you control volume?

I use my PC as a source so I can control the volume with foobar.

Then, by definition - aren't you using a preamp?

No. USB converter--->DAC--->Amps.

kfr01 · « **Reply #9 on:** 12 Jul 2006, 04:05 am »

gongos:

Doesn't that sort of volume control (on computer, prior to DAC) result in lost resolution and less than a bit-perfect stream being sent to the DAC?

I'm almost positive it does.

Here's a post by Steve of Empirical Audio:

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=pcaudio&n=2520&highlight=digital+volume+control&r=&session=

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Edit: There actually seems to be a split on audioasylum regarding whether this lost resolution matters much when upsampling to 24 bits prior to volume control...
Steve? Anyone?

jwilson · « **Reply #10 on:** 12 Jul 2006, 05:13 am »

I use passive attenuators with my D-200s and make fine volume adjustments with my Squeezebox's remote control. Simple, neutral, and transparent. Cheap too.

RWA SB3 -> Reality Cables ICs -> Endler Audio Stepped Attenuators -> D-200s -> Reality Cables bi-wires -> VR-4jrs.

gongos · « **Reply #11 on:** 12 Jul 2006, 11:46 am »

Quote from: kfr01 on 12 Jul 2006, 04:05 am

gongos:

Doesn't that sort of volume control (on computer, prior to DAC) result in lost resolution and less than a bit-perfect stream being sent to the DAC?

I'm almost positive it does.

Here's a post by Steve of Empirical Audio:

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=pcaudio&n=2520&highlight=digital+volume+control&r=&session=

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Edit: There actually seems to be a split on audioasylum regarding whether this lost resolution matters much when upsampling to 24 bits prior to volume control...
Steve? Anyone?

If that's the case, I wouldn't call it a preamp.

Grover · « **Reply #12 on:** 12 Jul 2006, 10:18 pm »

Thanks everyone for your replies so far. Those in-line attenuators look interesting. I'm probably not going to go that route just for convencience's sake. Multiple inputs plus my wife's feelings that equipment should be "heard and not seen" will require a bit more conventional solution than those.

I have a Basie tube DIY preamp right now that should work fine with the D series amps. Charles Calkins talked about his AVA preamp and that led me to check out their website. The AVA Transcendence Eight preamp looks like it might be a nice sounding tube pre. I'll need to keep that in mind for the future.

I'm also happy to read that people are enjoying their D series amps. It seems the D200 is the most popular option, at least in this small sampling of repliers. Since the amplifier modules are the same in both the D100 and D200, I'm assuming people go for the higher powered amp because it matches up with speaker choices a bit better?

kfr01 · « **Reply #13 on:** 12 Jul 2006, 10:24 pm »

Quote from: gongos on 12 Jul 2006, 11:46 am

Quote from: kfr01 on 12 Jul 2006, 04:05 am
gongos:

Doesn't that sort of volume control (on computer, prior to DAC) result in lost resolution and less than a bit-perfect stream being sent to the DAC?

I'm almost positive it does.

Here's a post by Steve of Empirical Audio:

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=pcaudio&n=2520&highlight=digital+volume+control&r=&session=

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Edit: There actually seems to be a split on audioasylum regarding whether this lost resolution matters much when upsampling to 24 bits prior to volume control...
Steve? Anyone?

If that's the case, I wouldn't call it a preamp.

Huh? Don't you feel like you are losing resolution by using the digital volume control of foobar?

Charles Calkins · « **Reply #14 on:** 12 Jul 2006, 10:30 pm »

grover:
I think you'll find that the D-100's work fine with an efficent speaker. Say in the 90 or more DB range. If you have an inefficent speaker say in the 85 or so DB range then i strongly advise you to go with the D-200 amps.

Cheers
Charlie

gongos · « **Reply #15 on:** 12 Jul 2006, 11:47 pm »

Quote from: kfr01 on 12 Jul 2006, 10:24 pm

Quote from: gongos on 12 Jul 2006, 11:46 am
Quote from: kfr01 on 12 Jul 2006, 04:05 am
gongos:

Doesn't that sort of volume control (on computer, prior to DAC) result in lost resolution and less than a bit-perfect stream being sent to the DAC?

I'm almost positive it does.

Here's a post by Steve of Empirical Audio:

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=pcaudio&n=2520&highlight=digital+volume+control&r=&session=

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Edit: There actually seems to be a split on audioasylum regarding whether this lost resolution matters much when upsampling to 24 bits prior to volume control...
Steve? Anyone?

If that's the case, I wouldn't call it a preamp.

Huh? Don't you feel like you are losing resolution by using the digital volume control of foobar?

No. Losing resolution compared to what?

mfsoa · « **Reply #16 on:** 13 Jul 2006, 12:10 am »

I thought that with digital volume controls, you are throwing away bits to reduce the volume, therefore losing resolution compared to the original signal.

Maybe the process in Foobar works differently than that of a CD, but if full volume on a CD is all 16 bits "on" and no volume is all bits "off", then the lower the volume the less bits (and data and information) you have. Hence CDs crappy ability to capture the decay of cymbals.

The instructions for my Headroom Total Bithead USB DAC/headphone amp say to leave all Windows volume levels all the way up - I assumed that this was to maintain as much digital information as possible. Otherwise how does the Windows volume control affect the USB output level?

Maybe someone who actually knows can clarify for us!

Thanks

kfr01 · « **Reply #17 on:** 13 Jul 2006, 01:34 am »

Quote from: gongos on 12 Jul 2006, 11:47 pm

No. Losing resolution compared to what?

Losing resolution compared to the bit-perfect stream from the CD.

Did ya click the link I posted?

Steve at Empirical Audio, from the aforementioned link:

"You are losing resolution by doing digital volume control. An active analog volume control will retain the resolution. The effect will be most noticable as an improvement in high-frequency detail. A good preamp is needed however."

You are doing digital volume control and are likely losing resolution (information!) prior to your DAC stage.

gongos · « **Reply #18 on:** 13 Jul 2006, 01:46 am »

Quote from: kfr01 on 13 Jul 2006, 01:34 am

Quote from: gongos on 12 Jul 2006, 11:47 pm
No. Losing resolution compared to what?

Losing resolution compared to the bit-perfect stream from the CD.

Did ya click the link I posted?

Steve at Empirical Audio, from the aforementioned link:

"You are losing resolution by doing digital volume control. An active analog volume control will retain the resolution. The effect will be most noticable as an improvement in high-frequency detail. A good preamp is needed however."

You are doing digital volume control and are likely losing resolution (information!) prior to your DAC stage.

I had an active pre in my system, and it made it sound worse. A couple other audiocircle members thought so to. Maybe it's because I still had the volume control active w/ foobar. I might ask Steve.

kfr01 · « **Reply #19 on:** 13 Jul 2006, 03:30 am »

If you do, I'd love to hear what he has to say. I guess I could always try running w/o my preamp too, and seeing how it sounds. A part of me just "likes to know" that I'm not degrading the digital signal though...