Inexpensive DAC that is better than a modded SB3?

pugs · « **on:** 9 Jul 2006, 07:57 pm »

I am having a Behringer DEQ2496 delivered to me shortly. I'm thinking about trying a DAC so I can run the digital out of my modded SB3 to the Behringer and digital out of the Behringer to the DAC. Are there any inexpensive DAC's out there (~$300) that will equal or better the DAC in my SB3? Used is OK.

zybar · « **Reply #1 on:** 9 Jul 2006, 09:15 pm »

What mods have been done to the SB3?

I have a hard time believing adding another cable and a DAC at the pric point you are talking about will improve upon a properly modded SB3.

George

texasphile · « **Reply #2 on:** 9 Jul 2006, 09:16 pm »

Hello,

I would recommend purchasing a DAC which fits the style of music that you listen to. If you want a slightly slower DAC with better overall detail, choose a "ladder-style" DAC. If you like "fast" music with less detail, choose a "sigma-delta" DAC. I have had quite a few of both and I prefer the Burr-Brown PCM 1702s (20-bit ladder DAC) and the Burr-Brown PCM 1704 (24-bit ladder DAC). I have had a PS Audio unit with an UltraAnalog 20 bit chipset, Perpetual Tech P3a (Crystal 4397 sigma-delta), Parasound D/AC 1000 (20 bit DAC), and others that I cannot remember past a few years ago. The most holographic sounding DAC that I have ever used is the Parasound D/AC 1000. It sounded horrific at the top end, but everything else was rather nice. It was also the cheapest unit that I ever purchased (used). I normally use the LiteAudio DAC-72 (BB 1702), it uses a tube/valve output stage http://www.gr-research.com/components/lite_dacs.htm. The other DAC that I use is the EVS brand Millennium DAC version 1B http://www.tweakaudio.com/Millennium%20DAC.html.

Good luck,
Chris

pugs · « **Reply #3 on:** 9 Jul 2006, 09:45 pm »

Quote from: zybar on 9 Jul 2006, 09:15 pm

What mods have been done to the SB3?

I have a hard time believing adding another cable and a DAC at the pric point you are talking about will improve upon a properly modded SB3.

George

I have the Red Wine Audio digital and newest analog mods with battery power supply. The only reason I'm trying to find a DAC is so I can utilize the Behringer to its fullest potential. If I can't find a decent DAC, I'll probably just sell the Behringer and keep things the way they are.

pugs · « **Reply #4 on:** 9 Jul 2006, 09:49 pm »

Quote from: texasphile on 9 Jul 2006, 09:16 pm

Hello,

I would recommend purchasing a DAC which fits the style of music that you listen to. If you want a slightly slower DAC with better overall detail, choose a "ladder-style" DAC. If you like "fast" music with less detail, choose a "sigma-delta" DAC. I have had quite a few of both and I prefer the Burr-Brown PCM 1702s (20-bit ladder DAC) and the Burr-Brown PCM 1704 (24-bit ladder DAC). I have had a PS Audio unit with an UltraAnalog 20 bit chipset, Perpetual Tech P3a (Crystal 4397 sigma-delta), Parasound D/AC 1000 (20 bit DAC), and others that I cannot remember past a few years ago. The most holographic sounding DAC that I have ever used is the Parasound D/AC 1000. It sounded horrific at the top end, but everything else was rather nice. It was also the cheapest unit that I ever purchased (used). I normally use the LiteAudio DAC-72 (BB 1702), it uses a tube/valve output stage http://www.gr-research.com/components/lite_dacs.htm. The other DAC that I use is the EVS brand Millennium DAC version 1B http://www.tweakaudio.com/Millennium%20DAC.html.

Good luck,
Chris

I want a DAC that has great bass, rich holographic, smooth sound that has no sharpness to it. Detail is not as important as a big soundstage, good imaging and impact. I want non fatiguing highs.

kfr01 · « **Reply #5 on:** 9 Jul 2006, 09:50 pm »

You can pick up used Perpetual P3a's for around that price. I've been reasonably happy with mine. I would describe it as neutral. Neither smooth nor harsh, etc.

Although, I wish it had balanced outs...

JoshK · « **Reply #6 on:** 9 Jul 2006, 09:51 pm »

If you are trying to use the Behringer to do room correction, there is a better and cheaper way. I assume you have a mic, mic pre and software to measure? If not there is free software you can download and the other two aren't too expensive.

Once you have measured your room, you'll need to look for the software (free, part of speaker workshop, iirc, check out the freq-something consortium) that works out the convolution you need to perform and then there is a thread on slim device's forum about how to add the convolution to your slim server, so that your computer does the room correction on the fly for you and then you don't have to worry with all the extra hardware.

Basically, it isn't as hard as it sounds, you just need to look up the various pieces as I haven't done it personally (own a DEQX).

pugs · « **Reply #7 on:** 9 Jul 2006, 10:14 pm »

Quote from: JoshK on 9 Jul 2006, 09:51 pm

If you are trying to use the Behringer to do room correction, there is a better and cheaper way. I assume you have a mic, mic pre and software to measure? If not there is free software you can download and the other two aren't too expensive.

Once you have measured your room, you'll need to look for the software (free, part of speaker workshop, iirc, check out the freq-something consortium) that works out the convolution you need to perform and then there is a thread on slim device's forum about how to add the convolution to your slim server, so that your computer does the room correction on the fly for you and then you don't have to worry with all the extra hardware.

Basically, it isn't as hard as it sounds, you just need to look up the various pieces as I haven't done it personally (own a DEQX).

That's the direction I wanted to go from the beginning, but I didn't know there were any available options yet. I'll look into it.

texasphile · « **Reply #8 on:** 9 Jul 2006, 10:24 pm »

Quote

I want a DAC that has great bass, rich holographic, smooth sound that has no sharpness to it. Detail is not as important as a big soundstage, good imaging and impact. I want non fatiguing highs.

Then I would recommend a multi-bit (ladder-style) DAC of some sort. I could look around the house and see what I have in DACs that I no longer use so that you could try one and see if it would fit your needs. I will not be able to read any response until tomorrow, late afternoon or evening as I will be traveling in a few minutes from my brother's house and going to my own house several hours away. I have a battery operated (good for 6-8 hours before recharging) ack! DAC that has been sitting all lonesome since I got the DAC-72. It is extremely clean sounding and is very smooth sounding since it does not oversample. You pay shipping to your house/apartment and back again.

Cheers,
Chris

rajacat · « **Reply #9 on:** 10 Jul 2006, 12:07 am »

The mhdt lab dac "Constantine" is going for ~$300 on ebay.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0406/mhdt_laboratory_dac.htm

boead · « **Reply #10 on:** 10 Jul 2006, 01:47 am »

Scott Nixon Tube DAC!

USBTD is a best bet for MAC and PC users.

http://www.scott-nixon.com/dac.htm

fu_man · « **Reply #11 on:** 10 Jul 2006, 03:05 am »

JoshK's reply may have rendered your original question redundant... but if not I can tell you that on my RWA analog/digital/power modded SB3 - my best results are with using a cheap XINDAK DAC3 ( it's not the latest model)
I have no experience with DACS so can't give you any comparisons, but this cheap DAC is definitely my best option. Still, I hope to try alternatives one day so I can assess how good it is.
(I also have a SB3 without digital and battery power mods, and the RWA digital modification is far better)

JLM · « **Reply #12 on:** 10 Jul 2006, 10:14 am »

I've owned the Ack dAck! v.2 and RWA fully modded SB3. The SB3 was as good or better than the Ack dAck! out of the box. I have very clean A/C here and can't detect an advantage using batteries. (Note that the RWA mods including improvements to the A/C power.)

I've found further improvements by using a wired ($20 crossover ethernet cable) versus wireless.

Paul_Bui · « **Reply #13 on:** 10 Jul 2006, 01:34 pm »

How about a new Audio Sector's NOS DAC, chassissless (read: more open sound), priced around $250 delivered?

Loftprojection · « **Reply #14 on:** 10 Jul 2006, 01:45 pm »

I own a MHDT Paradisea (sold exclusively on ebay for $500), superb little DAC that received a great review from EnjoyTheMusic (http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0406/mhdt_laboratory_dac.htm). I ordered a RWA modded SB and I should receive it this week. I will let you know the result but I expect that the best combination will be SB digital out into Padadisea.

texasphile · « **Reply #15 on:** 11 Jul 2006, 12:34 am »

I just remembered the A/D/S (Meitner, Museatex) IDAT 44. http://www.museatex.com/idat44.htm I liked its sound over the ack! DAC. I also switched it over to 12 VDC Sealed Lead Acid Battery from the electric wall wart. It can be run either way. If your car had a coaxial digital output, you could use the IDAT to run the stereo in the car.

I'll let you know if I remember any others,

Chris

Occam · « **Reply #16 on:** 11 Jul 2006, 03:39 pm »

Quote from: pugs on 9 Jul 2006, 09:49 pm

I want a DAC that has great bass, rich holographic, smooth sound that has no sharpness to it. Detail is not as important as a big soundstage, good imaging and impact. I want non fatiguing highs.

You're describing the Zhaolu 2.0 dac, $109 + ($50-70 airshipping, depending where you are), save for the fact that when the brass section is sharp, it WILL be sharp... and that you don't have to give up resolution to get the characteristics you desire. Tianguis (Larry) was kind enough to turn me on to this outstanding product.

Now for the caveats -

1. I bought mine from Eddie in HK, and I realize there is a recalcitrance to deal with foreign purchases. All I can say is that Eddie offers his own warranty, and when I experienced an intermittent fault, he takes care of it, and paid for the Global Express shipping both ways for repair.
http://www.diykits.com.hk/zhaolu.html

2. The standard headphone/pre amp board included is best used as a doorstop. I've the $36 discrete upgrade headphone/preamp board on order, but haven't gotten it yet and therefore can't opine.

3. You've got to mod it to get the proper sound out of it. The 3 opamps that you must replace are socketed so its really not difficult. You simply replace the 3 outstandingly mediocre but adequate OPA2604 opamps with 3 OPA2107 opamps. While Eddie also offers a $55 capacitor upgrade (I've heard both versions) with Blackgates and Oscons, the benefit is slight in comparison to the opamp upgrade.

So for less than $200 all-in, you get engaging musical involvement and resolution, not HI-FI.

FWIW,
Paul

pugs · « **Reply #17 on:** 11 Jul 2006, 05:29 pm »

Quote from: JLM on 10 Jul 2006, 10:14 am

I've owned the Ack dAck! v.2 and RWA fully modded SB3. The SB3 was as good or better than the Ack dAck! out of the box. I have very clean A/C here and can't detect an advantage using batteries. (Note that the RWA mods including improvements to the A/C power.)

I've found further improvements by using a wired ($20 crossover ethernet cable) versus wireless.

What kind of improvements did you hear between wired and wireless?

pugs · « **Reply #18 on:** 11 Jul 2006, 05:30 pm »

Quote from: Loftprojection on 10 Jul 2006, 01:45 pm

I own a MHDT Paradisea (sold exclusively on ebay for $500), superb little DAC that received a great review from EnjoyTheMusic (http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0406/mhdt_laboratory_dac.htm). I ordered a RWA modded SB and I should receive it this week. I will let you know the result but I expect that the best combination will be SB digital out into Padadisea.

Thanks. I'll be looking forward to it.

EProvenzano · « **Reply #19 on:** 11 Jul 2006, 05:34 pm »

Quote from: JoshK on 9 Jul 2006, 09:51 pm

If you are trying to use the Behringer to do room correction, there is a better and cheaper way. I assume you have a mic, mic pre and software to measure? If not there is free software you can download and the other two aren't too expensive.

Once you have measured your room, you'll need to look for the software (free, part of speaker workshop, iirc, check out the freq-something consortium) that works out the convolution you need to perform and then there is a thread on slim device's forum about how to add the convolution to your slim server, so that your computer does the room correction on the fly for you and then you don't have to worry with all the extra hardware.

Basically, it isn't as hard as it sounds, you just need to look up the various pieces as I haven't done it personally (own a DEQX).

Wow... how didn't I know about this! This sounds like a very elegant, yet powerful, solution.
Josh would you elaborate a bit more for the newbies out there....me too!

Can you recommend a mic and mic pre-amp? How is the mic pre-amp connected to a PC in order to save the correction curve?
Does this approach have any limitations for frequency/room correction?

Sorry for the dumb questions.

EP