[lonewolfny42]

Hey Carl....Looks like you had a nice listening session....that's the only way to know for sure.

I'm so close to being 'finished' I can taste it.   I'm just hoping the 252 will be 'enough' for me... and that the 402 won't become what I need....

Checking Audiogon....a few Mac's listed for sale....at good prices....even a few 501's. I wonder, how's the heat with those ?

Thanks....

Chris

[Inscrutable]

My enthusiastic congratulations is tempered by my disappointment and envy for not making it there.  

Can't wait to hear your room and new rig, Carl ... if there is a sequel and I am in town, other than a death in the family (mine) I'll be there.  George & Andy, looking forward to meeting you new old guys also.  

Like Steve, it has been a long time since I listened to McIntosh gear (my old tube tuner being the last piece).  I grew up an hour from the factory, so it was relatively 'common' around that area.  As much as I liked the Butler in my (old) room - and not that they necessarily compare to the Piega's, but my speakers can tend to have somewhat similar characteristics in terms of the ability to go very low articulately with the right amp, and the ability to sound strident on top with all but the right amp - you now have me wondering just how good a match the Mac's would be. You may have cost me a lot of $$$ ... thanks a lot    

As much as the word 'synergy' gets used and abused, it would seem you've proven its importance over the last year or two.  I am going to have to get my arse in gear and get my room finished before I can figure out how to complete my system now.

I see I am also going to have to get a lot smarter about my source ... I am going to rebuild my htpc as an audio server (actually, still waffling about rebuilding as a media/htpc also, but I think I have enough high-maintenance things in my life), and I have no idea whatsoever what the heck unmapping the soundcard is or does.

Sooo ... sounds like you've settled on the Macs, and are going to try the 252 to start with?  Like you say, it will be interesting to see if the advantages over the Butler are still as significant with half the power, and a lower damping factor compared to the 501's (which you'd think would sacrifice some amount of control at the bottom).

Oh, and I had all those cables and such loaded up ... if you'd like to play with them for a while I can bring them over sometime ... they're not doing anything over here in the boxes.

[Carlman]

LW, as the the heat report... They got just a little warm to the touch after playing for a few hours... not much heat at all.  I think having 3 guys in the room had a more significant effect than all 5 amps that were on.... none of them were 'hot'... the CI Audio was the warmest, but it was still a 'normal' warm and not bad at all. 

Tim,
I'll be glad to share what I know to help guide you through the audio PC maze.  Unfortunately, I'll only be helpful with the way I've done it.... I just copy what Brandon does and it works for me.  I bought the same car, the same speakers, etc., and it's all worked out.  

I've decided to just take the leap and get the 402.  The 501's are just a little too pricey... and the 402's come up used enough to get a good deal... So, I'm going to be on the lookout for a good deal... but I now need to get another grand or so in the ol' spending jar... so it'll probably be the end of August before I buy it.

The Butler is surprisingly good but if bass control is a key consideration, the Mac will trump it handily... and at substantially more money... Sorry about the budget increase.. if it's any consolation, I had to do it too. 

This was a good meeting to really hear gear and/or cords. 

Gotta get to a meeting... more later...
PHOTOS ARE HERE!

-C

[Hantra]

That's one of the things I like about the Mc besides the sound.  In my small room, these two amps don't put off any heat.  They run warmer than a 402, but even driving them all day long from 200-500 watts when I was breaking them in, the heat sinks MIGHT have been 100 degrees.  Contrast that with the Plinius 102 I had, which had half a square mile of heat sink, and they were 165 degrees at all times.

No idea how they get the sound out of these they do without running full class A.  I guess that's why they call it McIntosh Laboratories.   

Nevertheless, the lack of any real heat is probably one reason that 85% of gear they've ever built, ever, is still in operation.

Yes. . . Pride of ownership is important to me these days.  As you can tell above.   

[Hantra]

Ahhh. . . Grats on the Eudemonic purchase Chris!   

Check out www.dsbd.net for some super quality Kimock straight from the board, and mastered by one of the greats.  There really are too many to recommend, but I'd pick up 12/29/04 to start.  I love the 1/06 stuff too, as the lineup has changed, and the keyboard makes quite a bit of difference.  We listened to that one the other night at Carl's. 

[CIAudio]

Hi Guys...

Just found this topic...sounds like you all had fun.

Speakers will always have the most character of any system component, and choosing the right amplifier for them is always important. Our amps our designed/voiced using various models of conventional dynamic driver loudspeakers, and will most likely sound best with this type of speaker.

I haven't heard the Peiga's, but they probably aren't a good match for the D-200's (or any other highly detailed amplifier). In all my 30+ years in the audio biz, I can't remember hearing a ribbon sound good with this type of amplifier...Tubes or softish sounding SS amps would most likely have a better synergy.
Looks like this is what you learned in your listening experiments.

[zybar]

Hi Guys...

Just found this topic...sounds like you all had fun.

Speakers will always have the most character of any system component, and choosing the right amplifier for them is always important. Our amps our designed/voiced using various models of conventional dynamic driver loudspeakers, and will most likely sound best with this type of speaker.

I haven't heard the Peiga's, but they probably aren't a good match for the D-200's (or any other highly detailed amplifier). In all my 30+ years in the audio biz, I can't remember hearing a ribbon sound good with this type of amplifier...Tubes or softish sounding SS amps would most likely have a better synergy.
Looks like this is what you learned in your listening experiments.

Well they can work well with a ribbon tweeter.  My HT3's use a G2 ribbon tweeter and I did like the sound they produced.

George

[Hantra]

I haven't heard the Peiga's, but they probably aren't a good match for the D-200's (or any other highly detailed amplifier).

I have immense respect for anyone who can build audio gear in the United States and sell it at decent prices, but with that said, I wonder if we all have a different idea what really is "detailed". 

While I agree wholeheartedly with you that the Piega is not the speaker for these amplifiers, Of the three most detailed amplifiers I have ever heard in my life (Halcro, McIntosh 501, Scott Nixon's AmpKit monoblocks), I have owned two of these, and listened extensively for months on the Piegas. 

I don't recall ever hearing anything like what I heard the other day from any of these amplifiers on Piega ribbons.  In fact, the Piega ribbon has been the only one I've heard in my life that I can live with long term because there is none of that unnatural ringing I hear on other ones.  A friend has a Krell FPB-700cx, and as detailed as it is, it doesn't do anything like that either. 

I guess detail to me is getting all the information.  I was hearing information that was not there in the original recording.  There was a very exaggerated amount of extra information around the high frequencies that I've never heard in the recording, or in real life. 

I'm curious as to whether you've hooked the amps to anything that stretches to 40 or 60kHz.  That has to be where the problem is. 

[CIAudio]

I have heard from a few customers that the D-200's work very well with the HT3's, but haven't actually heard them myself. Being that I haven't heard the Piega's either, I was making a guess based on what ribbons generally sound like.

That being said, I have heard both the Scott Nixon's (they sounded very similar to our VMB-1's), and also the Mac 501's. I would not consider either of these to have the inner detail of the D series. High frequency fundamentals are much lower in frequency than you are talking about...more like 3-15k, most above that is ambient information. Our amps start rolling off at 20k and are 3dB down at 50k...anything annoying would not be heard in this area (if you could hear that high...you can't

As you can see by the measurement below, the amps are ruler flat (at all impedances).


My point is that it is not the characteristic sound of our amps that didn't sound good, but the particular combination of speaker and amp (and maybe something else in the chain?)

Synergy in the key to any system, if you search here and other forums, you'll find that there are several combinations that people found to make magic with D-100/200...my guess is the Piega is just not a good match.
 

[Carlman]

Yes, synergy is very important.  The MC501's were in a different league than the CI D200's. The Butler was also outclassed by the MC501... and the Piega's showed the weaknesses of the of Butlers... That's to be expected given the cost difference.  The reason the D200's came in after the Butlers was because they mis-represented the music.  The Butler had sins of omission whereas the D200's committed sins of digital hash or grain.

One thing I am particularly senstive to is the grain of digital.  It's like a very high frequency pulsation of energy creating sounds.  If you were trying to hold a ZZZZZZ while speaking, that's the sound that bugs me.  Every cd player has it to me.  It can sound better/worse/different but it's always there.  When I got the audio PC, it went away mostly... and was much more 'analog' sounding.  I call it 'continous' sound for whatever reason.  The TacT amp was very tolerable when set to 192k sampling but was missing some other traits I like.. (mainly transparency).

My system has been built around ridding myself of of the digital hash.  When we unmapped the soundcard, I felt like that was the last barrier to break through to continuous sound.  (rather than digital) 

Anyway, I've heard a lot of amps and my tastes are reasonably well-defined now.  They're also driven by my need for the liquid-like 'continous' sound.  The D200's unfortunately have that pulsation/non-continuous sound.  That was the main thing I didn't like.  Whether they measure flat doesn't matter to me if that first requirement isn't met. 

Frankly, I did not expect to like them.  I haven't really liked any switching amps other than the SN mono's but they didn't have the power I needed at the time.  I was hoping to be surprised and say 'hey, I thought I wasn't going to like them... but did!'... but alas, they were pretty much what I expected. 

My room is likely the culprit for added bass and I didn't get a chance to implement the room correct to tame it.  However, in comparison, the D200's presented more bass than the other amps.  I know how important getting the bass is to make the midrange... and these amps just didn't make the music sound as convincing as the other 2.... so, that could very well be part of the issue.

Often what one learns at these comparisons is what works for one person in one room, in their system. (which was my goal)  What's nice about these gatherings is that over time, we get a sense of each person's rooms, their tastes, and what we can extrapolate... I doubt extrapolation can stretch into the general circles/public, though.  Just like any review, really.  You gotta hear it for yourself. 

As to my speakers.... The Piega's are the best speaker I've ever heard.  They are as revealing as can be and I cannot believe they are actually ribbons.  I have never liked ribbons except these.... and the midrange is part of the tweeter design... in a planar-type-coax-design.  They are extended but not harsh in any way.  So far, the Piega's have only exposed the amps I've played on them as they are.... which is partly why I sold the Tact... the Piega's can do better.  The Butler is mighty good but a little too slow for me.  The MC501's are slow too but have some bass articulation that makes up for it and provide a new kind of PRAT I like.  I still think about the sound of that room before Brandon left.... just awesome.

So, that's my take...

[CIAudio]

I agree with you that the 501's are very good and should be better than the rest givin their price point, power, etc.
Sounds like you found the best match. As you mention, the room (and all other associated components) have to work in harmony to give you the overall result you seek.

The D-200's are switching amps, but not digital in any way. They are generally described as controlled, open, detailed, and smooth. So again, the amp itself is not responsible for the sound you were getting, it was a combination of things that produced the results. 

I'd like to hear the Piegas, I have another customer who had some (don't recall whick model) and liked certain qualities of them, but found them to be zingy on the top end (was not using our amps). He eventually went back to his Audio Physics. Like everything else, they probably sound great with the right electronics, and not so great with others.

[Al Garay]

Carlman,

You need to update your 2-system description. It's hard to keep up. You sold your Tact?

Glad you helped bring fresh visibility to old classic brands like McIntosh. Have you tried an AVA amp?

Al

[Carlman]

Hey, Al, unfortunately there's no way to update my system... see this note on the left side of the system area:

Please note: Systems cannot currently be added, edited, or deleted. This is a "read only" page at present. We are working on it, please be patient.

In the interim...

Today, at this moment, I have:
Preamp/DAC:
Tact RCS 2.0S, modified to the max by Mauimods (aka Aberdeen Components)
Amp:
Butler 2250 (for sale, soon to have a McIntosh MC402)
Source:
Audio PC as source transport
Speakers:
Piega P5 Limited speakers
Cables:
Reality Cables for speakers and interconnects.
Black Sand Cables for power (Violet on source and pre, Silver Ref on amp)

I have a cheap turntable but no phono pre.  Either the phono pre has to output digital or the Tact must get an ADC adaptor card so, I'm figuring out what I'm going to do on that...

[hometheaterdoc]

the room (and all other associated components) have to work in harmony to give you the overall result you seek.
(snip)
So again, the amp itself is not responsible for the sound you were getting, it was a combination of things that produced the results. 
(snip)
Like everything else, they probably sound great with the right electronics, and not so great with others.

The CI D100s really don't like Merlins either... at least not in Claud's system when I heard them (used with a Cary Audio CDP and Cary tube preamp).  They sounded exactly like the D200s did in Carl's system and it wasn't my cup of tea at all.... it's system synergy AND user preference....  Carl doesn't like exactly the same kind of sound that I do... and I don't really care for the exact type of sound that he likes...  I can appreciate it, but I can't sit in the same room with it for any extended period of time, either

I can think of a couple combos that would probably work extremely well with the CI stuff and I might like the combo as well... but like any other audiophile, I'm kinda picky about the kind of sound I like.... I guess that's why there are so many companies out there offering different paths to sonic nirvana

[CIAudio]

Yep, we all strive to achieve what WE feel is the best sound in our given room, based on our listening preferences, budget, reliability, convenience, appearance, and other factors, based on what is important to us.
If we all had the same ideals, we'd all have the same gear.

That's what makes this such a fun hobby, we can choose the chassis, engine, suspension, etc. and put together the hotrod of our dreams 

[Hantra]

I guess that's why there are so many companies out there offering different paths to sonic nirvana

Precisely!

As far as Piega being "zingy", I have heard a pair that "zinged", and I have heard that same speaker, properly setup, with the same gear, and it was divine. 

Any truly great speaker is going to require the user to put in the time to properly place, and set them up.  Those that have the patience to do it properly are rewarded beyond belief.  Those who set them up in the same spot they had some other speakers, and fire them up, are shorting themselves (especially with ribbons/planars). 

It took me a few months to get mine in the right spot, measured, and properly toed in.  Once I was there though, the whole world opened up to me.  Prior to that, I was pulling my hair out a lot of the time, wondering why I upgraded my system.  Most of that drama can be found here on the forum. 

Unfortunately, too many audiophiles spend too much time in that mode.  Proper setup and room treatment is everything when you get to a certain level.  But now I'm getting off track.  I guess my point is, don't judge a speaker until you've heard it setup properly. 

Nevertheless, thanks for participating in the discussion and not responding with hostility, as some manufacturers would.