[Carlman]

Brandon, Sure, bring it!
Tim, that'd be great.  I intended to ask Shane if I could borrow a BPT but haven't actually asked... I'd love it if you brought yours either way...

Sounds like we'll be doing some power comparisons, also.

-C

[Carlman]

Just a quick headcount... So far I see we have:
Steve, Shane, Brandon, Tim, and me.

If there are any more, let me know.

-Carl

[Inscrutable]

Well, a BPT would be much better than this, but I'll bring in case.  I didn't want to turn this into a PC meet, but heck you're going to need a bunch of them just to keep everything warmed up.  I didn't get a chance last night, but maybe I can get them cooking tonight.  Not sure I have enough equipment available to get them all going simultaneously ... most everything is packed upstairs.  I'm sure the noise floor on my fax/scanner/copier will be much better the next few days. 

[hometheaterdoc]

I could probably be persuaded to bring the BPT along.. I also have some Black Sand stuff here that's been burning in.... I was planning to do an evaluation this weekend as I think it's got enough time on it now...

of course if someone wants to come to my place and get it themselves as opposed to me dragging it over to their place, I wouldn't be opposed to that either... although it can't be today as I have several site visits to do....

[Carlman]

Shane, unfortunately tonight is the only time I'd have to swing by... It's not of critical importance to have the BPT but it is as close to 'the standard' in hifi power conditioning as I've ever seen.  And since we're doing PC and amp comparisons, I'd really like to have it instead of the Cyberpower rack-mountable UPS I'm using that hums. 

Talk to you later,
Carl

[Hantra]

Count Bobby in too. 

I can't lift these amps down the stairs alone.   

[zybar]

Sounds like a lot of fun guys.

The D-200's should be there tomorrow.  Make sure to get them a little up and running time before the comparison as I have had them sitting unused for almost two months now.

George

[Carlman]

Cool... it'll be great to see Bobby! 
All amps will be as warmed up as I can get them... I will want a preview of the D200's so, I'll have them plugged in and playing from when I get them until Sunday. Thanks again, George.

BTW.. The doors are in!!!   I can listen in peace!  SQ is a little different... imaging depth seems to have improved but the bass seems a little more resonant... but so far the good outweighs the bad by far.  Need to finish my extra panels and do some TacT'ing to see what this room can really do.

-C
 

[Carlman]

OK, the D200's are here... and they're connected via the Black Sand Power Cables which also arrived!

So, it looks like we'll definitely have some comparison fun... Unfortunately, I haven't heard from Anthony so, no modified TacT 2150...   Maybe next time....

See you all tomorrow afternoon!

-Carl

PS, if you need help getting here, feel free to PM me or email me.  Email is cmcmillan3 at yahoo dot com.

[zybar]

So how is it going guys?

George

[Carlman]

It went well...   I wanted to update this thread last night but I ended up falling asleep.... Lame, I know.  I did take some photos, as did Steve.  B's friend Bobby and Tim could not make it due to some family comittments.. So, it was Steve, Shane, Brandon, and myself.  Shane had to leave early also for a comittment he'd forgotten he comitted to...

Anyway, the gear that was in attendance:

Speakers:
Piega P5 Limited

Amps:
Butler TDB 2250
CI Audio D200
McIntosh 501 monoblocks

Power cords were Black Sand Cable. 

Interconnects and SC's were Reality Cables, except the XLR's which were IXOS' top of the line.

Shane brought the BPT Signature 2.0. (If it was the 2.5, please correct me)  He also sported the BSC T-shirt.

Source was my Audio PC,

Preamp was the recently (Fully modified by Aberdeen) TacT RCS 2.0S.  All comparisons were done in 'bypass' mode, meaning no room correction was applied.

We did a quick run through the amps first... I can't remember if we did the D200's first or the Butler but I'll say the D200's did most things right technically.  But I don't think they're a good match for the Piega's.  The way the highs were presented were simply not my cup of tea.  They provided very authoritative bass and imaged well, though. 

We compared the Butler, which by comparison was more pleasing than the D200's.  And had a very nice presentation.  Nothing offensive here but to me lacks a little articulation or resolution... and seems a little less 'pratty' for whatever reason.  I liked the PRAT of the AKSA and TacT amps... which are 'faster' sounding.  However, that may not be the amp... more on that in a minute.

Then came the big Mac's.   Initially, I wasn't floored by them... they had a little more authority and resolution, but seemed a little less warm and/or smooth than the Butler.  But, as I listened, I got sucked into the music more and more. 

After a while, we got to talking about Foobar configurations... and Brandon asked if my soundcard was 'unmapped' and I had no idea what he was talking about.  However, I unmapped the soundcard through the control panel and there was an immediate improvement in sound across the board.  Everything was cleaner, smoother, more whole, and just better.  THAT's when the Mac's really showed their superiority.  The Piega's are very sensitive to upstream changes and this was one of the most satisfying changes I've heard in a while.  Not because of how much it changed but in the WAY it changed.  It sounds more analog now than it ever has.... all while I'm listening on all digital, SS with ribbons, which just amazes me.  BTW, this is where I got my PRAT back... toe-tapping was now in full effect.

We swapped around amps again for a while and came back to the McIntosh.  It's just better all the way around than anything I've ever heard.  It's silent, authoritative, and has a sort of 'confidence' to presenting the music.  Details are all there but with no 'extra' emphasis anywhere I could detect.

I did try the Silver Black Sand Cable on the Butler and it does make a nice improvement over the Kimber Kable PC it replaced.... It didn't make it as good as the amp next to it that cost 5x as much but it did make things a little tighter/tidier... tough to describe but an improvement, nonetheless.  We also compared it to an Audience PowerChord which held its own against the BSC.  I'd be happy with either and have no intention of going back to my old Kimber and DIY Belden 83802's.

BTW, we had unbroken-in BSC cables I just received, and broken-in models from Shane... We used the broken-in ones for the comparisons.  They're VERY nice cables... great looks, grip, and sound.  One thing I appreciate is good craftsmanship...

On that note, the McIntosh gear is some of the best crafted gear I've ever seen.  They thought of everything.  The Butler and the D200's are no slouch, and look great.  But just aren't in the same league when it comes to fit, finish, and function.  Everything felt solid, real, and tied-down.  I'm sold on the Mac's... I may not be able to afford the particular pair Brandon has, though.

One surprise of this meeting was how well the Butler performed... I still want a little more detail and resolution but it's really not bad for a $3,k amp.... The Butler really is a great value even at MSRP.  I wouldn't be surprised if a similar-priced McIntosh would be given a run for its money by the Butler.  We'll see...

Thanks to Shane, Brandon, and Steve for participating and putting up with my unorganized-ness... I just got the room put back together as of that morning.  So, I didn't have a lot of planning time for tunes or comparos.

Photos will be uploaded soon... definitely within the next day or 2...

Thanks again,
Carl

[hometheaterdoc]

Carl,

The BPT is a 3.5 Signature Plus with all the bells and whistles...

I was only in attendance for ~1 hour because I was late getting there, and then had to leave early because I forgot I agreed to help a friend move... gotta love carrying 800 pound sofas up and down 3 flights of stairs in sweltering NC summer weather....

First off, I have to say that Carl's system/room has *never* sounded this good before.  It has taken a SIGNIFICANT step up in performance.  Kudos on really getting things to the next level and not breaking the bank to do it.

I didn't get to hear all the various combos.  We did run things on bypass which was remarkably good in the room. The only thing the Tact I think would really improve is the bottom end bit of boominess that was still present in spite of all the room treatments.  It only reared its ugly head on a couple tracks though and wasn't all that offensive.... which is a testament to how great the new speakers and room treatments work in that room.

While I was there, I heard the D200s with Carl's BSC cords that weren't fully broken in yet, the Butler 2250 with a $20 Kimber cord, and the Macs with my fully broken in BSC cords.

The D200s were up first and weren't given the greatest advantage when I heard them because the power cords weren't fully broken in yet.  The D200s did not like Carl's system.  The combo of the D200s with the speakers in that room was truly awful.  I would have liked to stick around and try out the broken in BSC cords I left with Carl to see if that made any difference.  But the combo I heard only lasted about 3/4s of a song before I made Carl turn it off.  Something just wasn't right there...  within 2 seconds of firing up the Butler, everyone let out a relieved sigh and settled in for a couple songs (isn't it weird how system synergy and gear combos affect one another?  I've been going through a nightmare in the last couple weeks trying to make a new speaker work for me and I'm just not getting what everyone else hears... it must be my musical preference and the gear I'm partnering it up with).  We then switched to the Mac monoblocks... far and away the best combo.  It has the same textural qualities of the Butler, but is more incisive, had a firmer grip on things and had a bit more clarity and detail, while still remaining smooth and harmonically rich. 

I really would have liked to stay for the Butler with the BSC broken in cord.  I also would like to hear a pair of 2250's monoblocked compared to the Macs to see if the Mac advantages I heard could be somewhat overcome or by how much the gap closed.  I also would have liked to hear the changes Carl is describing with the computer settings.  oh well... another time, I guess....

[Hantra]

Thanks again to Carl for a cool meet with good food and good company.  Ohh. . and with a good sounding system!   

I have to say first off that Carl's system was on a completely different plane than I had ever heard it before.  I knew the Piegas would take him to a level he hadn't been before, but I did not expect to hear what I heard at his place.  I was amazed at how good the sound was yesterday!  You could tell Carl had been putting in a lot of hours getting everything perfect, and the results were all too clear after listening. 

The system just imaged with a razor sharp quality I haven't heard from many systems.  Everything was in its place, and clearly defined, with sharp edges.  Although the room may have been a bit deader than I like, I think it sounded the absolute best it could have sounded.  It's not an easy room at all.

We started off with the CI amps, and quickly replaced them with the 501's.  We pretty much assumed, though they had been playing for 24+ hours since they hit the door, that they needed more time to warm up.  It was immediately apparent to all in attendance.

So we put the MC-501's in.  Of course this was going to be my favorite.  It was as close as I could get to my system outside of my system.     The MC-501's really are something special, and I'd say they are among the top three amplifiers I've heard in my life.  They're as close to the Halcros as I have heard.  Even if I could cough up the $30K+ entry fee on the Halcros, I would not have enough power.  So I am super pleased with these amplifiers, and they really complimented Carl's system well. 

I think Carl's description of what they sound like is adequate.  I would only add that there is so much information there.  There are many times when I am trying to listen for changes in my system, when I just don't pay any attention, or get too lost in the tunes to even care if there is a difference.  That is what I experienced yesterday, and by the end of the evening, I think Carl and I both were experiencing that.  We just kept playing more and more music, as Carl's lovely wife had probably had enough.  LOL

Anyhow. . . Moving along. . . We played the Butler.  And honestly it was a surprise how good it was.  The amp really is amongst the best period in its price range.  It lacks resolution versus the MC-501's, but we're talking 300%+ more money.  I could be happy with the Butler if I hadn't heard what an extra grand would get me.  Although there was clearly a veil there,  I did like the smooth harmonics I heard from the Butler.  I didn't like the lack of control in the lower registers.  It's possible that I am just not used to that, but it really stood out to me as being a major weak spot.

The CI-D200's were excellent in the same area.  They controlled the sound very well.  Bass was deep, and tighter than it has a right to be at that price.  Midrange was a bit recessed, but I am inclined to think that is due to the incredibly sizzly high end these things have.  I think it pushes the highs so over the top, that the mids are going to sound recessed.  I've heard amps like this before, but never to this degree. 

Yes, it was clean, and clear.  But there is an unnatural tizz to the highs that actually made me mad to listen to it.  I mean, I can't think of a different way to describe it.  We almost all broke into throwing blows when listening to these, for no reason.  We weren't mad at each other.  I think it's something psychological that these amps do. 

I've never tried to do serious listening with a horrendous hangover, but this must be what it's like.  We tried different power cords, but eventually had to just unplug them to prevent further bloodshed.

My theory is that the CI amps play on up into the nether regions of  +20Khz, and that perhaps the Piegas were the wrong speaker for them, since they extend to 60Khz.  Maybe someone can shed light on this, or disprove it.  I'd say they'd be great with a single driver speaker that had no tweeter. 

I had a lot of fun, and thanks to the hardcores who showed up despite the rainy day.  We have to do it again sometime soon. 

 

[Carlman]

Thanks for the room/system compliments.  It has been a series of improvements based on suggestions from many people... One of which came from BrunoB.  (the reflection point treatments)... 8th Nerve's prinicple and treatments... Nathan's bass trap suggestions, etc...

BTW, You are so right about just listening to the music at the end of Sunday... I could've sat and listened to that whole Alice in Chains album with NO problem.  That's exactly what I was hoping for... a system I look forward to just hearing... and not tinkering or trying to fix X, Y, or Z...

I'm so close to being 'finished' I can taste it.   I'm just hoping the 252 will be 'enough' for me... and that the 402 won't become what I need....   

-C

[zybar]

Looks like it was a lot of fun guys.

I would love to hear the MC mono amps and see how they compare to the BAT VK-600SE.

George

[Hantra]

I would love to hear the MC mono amps and see how they compare to the BAT VK-600SE.

Well. . . I'd have to say that since yours weighs less, then we can have it at my place.  It's only fair. . .   

Does that one have any tubes in it?  TTYL,

B

[sheadlee]

Hi, Guys!

I been trying to get time to do this...now finally... !

First...thanks to Carl (& Christine) for their hospitality  !!! Second, Carl's room sounds remarkably good now...it's very difficult room, and I am amazed that his (hard) work has produced such excellent results  !

The Piega's sing extraordinarily well...imaging is spot on, dynamics great, inner detail and delicacy are there, and they produce tremendous bass...especially considering their small size...well done Piega!

The amp shoot out was a bit of an eye opener...at least for me. The Channel Islands were first up, and they did exert excellent bottom end control and sounded generally good, but (to me) seemed to have a bit of 'grain' especially in the upper end. The Butler came next and definitely had a more relaxed presentation, not quite as controlled on the bottom end, but the remainder of the spectrum seemed well balanced and ultimately listenable.

The Mac's were last, and here is where I was surprised...I hadn't heard any Mac equipment in years (actually decades). The Mac's...in Carl's system...seemed to provide the best synergy  ! Powerful, clean, quiet, harmonically rich, delicate, superb control...and lots of other adjectives!

I only took a couple of pictures, and I will post them...if I can ever figure out how to do that on this forum...grrrrr!

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=786

Again, thanks to Carl...for a marvelous afternoon, and well as the other attendees.

[zybar]

I would love to hear the MC mono amps and see how they compare to the BAT VK-600SE.

Well. . . I'd have to say that since yours weighs less, then we can have it at my place.  It's only fair. . .   

Does that one have any tubes in it?  TTYL,

B

No tubes, but a good amount of heat! 

At roughly 120 lbs, that should be no problem lugging down to NC...   

All kidding aside, I am thinking I need to take a trip down to NC for a little audio.  I could visit you, Carl, and Bryan.

Hmm...maybe a road trip at the end of the summer.

George

[BikeWNC]

I could be forced to make the trip down from the mountains and bring my Odyssey Extreme Monos SE for a listen if that were to happen.  My Prius should be delivered this week so it won't even be too costly a drive down, compared to the Sequoia.

Andy

[Carlman]

Cool!  Just finished a meeting and another is already getting planned!  And we may have guests... and long-time-no-hear's..    

George, we'd be happy to have you, just let me know whenever you're ready... By the end of August I'll have another amp to throw in the mix...

Andy!  Hope all is well with you... I think it's been at least a year since I last saw you... hopefully the Prius will take the pinch out of travel, we'd sure like to see you more.  Congrats on the new ride!

Thanks for posting your thoughts and photos, Steve.  I'll post my pix tonight.

-C