[Psychicanimal]

Hello hello...

I'm back from my sabbatical leave!

Chair guy's experience w/ the belt drive and the JVC are extremely positive.  More learning, more experience, more resources.

I don't have the time these days, but I do plan to address all his concerns w/ the modding of a 1200 & the KAB modded Groovemaster--but not in this thread.  As I posted, I Beta tested the cartridge and had an Ortofon X5 MC at the time.  I am going to give you guys some food for thought:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?raccs&1033259530&read&3&4&

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?ranlg&1093010514&read&3&4&

I shall return...

***

[TheChairGuy]

PA,

Read my looong topics on my adventure with the JVC direct driver and the van Alstine Longhorn mod topic...you'll see I explored many issues of both direct vs. belt drive and various cartridge experiences, including that of the Ortofon.

The Ortofon has virtues, it's mostly let down by it's very high effective tip mass.....which is why it is a 'stinko' tracking cartridge (nonetheless, has amazing imaging and a 'wholeness' that is inspiring).  A rigid platform underneath, the Longhorn stabilizer and a damping trough help, but can't overcome it's inherent weakness.

From Ortofon's website:

Tracking ability at 315Hz at
recommended tracking force> 60 µm

Compliance, dynamic, lateral 13 µm/mN

Stylus type  Nude FG 70

Stylus tip radius  r/R 5/70 µm

Equivalent stylus tip mass  0,75 mg

Most of Ortofon's better cartridges (several cheaper MM's, for instance) track at 80-100 and their effective mass is closer to 0.40mg. Even their cheap DJ cartridges are 0.60 mg tip mass.

In short, it's nice cartridge in many respects for $200....but it might be a great candidate for a van den Hul (boron) re-tip.

Then again, when you add a $300 retip to a $200 cartridge...you have a lot of nice choices at $500.00 out there. As well you should for that kinda' dough.

[Psychicanimal]

PA,

Read my looong topics on my adventure with the JVC direct driver and the van Alstine Longhorn mod topic...you'll see I explored many issues of both direct vs. belt drive and various cartridge experiences, including that of the Ortofon.

I did read all your posts before reappearing...

And I did say I would address your issues in due time, just that right now I don't have the time.

I have never used stylus specifications to the letter in order to make up decisions.  When I was 20 I worked at an audio store and we had most of the classic cartridges in the store Shure V15 IV, AT OC-9, Stanton 881S, the Ortofons, Pickerings, etc.  We were also familiar w/ stuff we did not sell, like the Grace, the Grados and the Monster Alpha's.  We did swap cartidges a lot and relied on actual listening tests.  And it is because of someone's listening tests that I chose the X-5 MC for my modded 1200.  There was a salesman at the Needle Doctor (Kenny is his name I think) that was both a high end enthusiast and a DJ.  He was the one that told me about Kevin Barrett (KAB Electroacoustics) and how important performancewise was the internal rewiring of the tonearm and phono cables.  And of all Needle Doctor's cartridges he was using the Ortofon X-3 MC and that it gave better results than the X-5, which uses a Fritz Geiger stylus.  His viewpoint was that although the X5 sounded better, it was more revealling/sensitive and picked up more imperfections, pops, ticks and noise, making enjoyable listening less practical (made sense to me).  I also deducted that being a DJ, he didn't want too much hassle when swapping from an audiophile to a DJ cartridge and back.

Here I had a guy like me, who had the chance to try so many cartridges on a 1200!  I reasoned that the FG was much more finicky to set up and that with a lot of care I could get better sound and longer record life on my albums. Sometime later I found a new X-5 for $125 including shipping, so it was a no brainer.  Later on, I bought a Melos on Audiogon from this guy Nightdoggy and turned out he was an EE--and a 1200 modder!  He had opted to mod the quartz lock circuitry versus installing an outboard power supply.  At any rate, he also had both an Ortofon X3 and an X5 and preferred the X3.  Here's a recent post from him:

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/545728.html

Setting up the X5 it's tough, but can be done properly.

In my next post I will address the sound characteristics, trackability and 1200 tonearm compatibility issues.  Stay tuned.

[TheChairGuy]

Professor PA  ,

I look forward to another re-re-appearance and a bit o' learning.

Perhaps you already know about his resource, but there is a treasure trove of info on The Needle Doctor's site on the X-series cartridges:
http://www.needledoctor.com/s.nl/it.A/id.288/.f?sc=7&category=970

They have an old specification chart citing the effective stylus mass of the X5-MC at 0.40 mg....I, frankly, bought at thinking that it had a 0.40 mg effective mass (which is, pretty good).  I was dismayed to find that somewhere along the past 15 years Ortofon substituted a cheaper cantilever and the effective mass is now 0.75mg (as on Ortofon's site today).

I don't place all meaning on specs alone, but everything else being equal in two cartridges, a higher effective mass is never beneficial.  Sooooo, I still maintain despite what you're experience has been, the Ortofon is a inadequate tracker and is bass/dynamic shy.  I bought mine for $200 from Jack's Music Factory and was happy with the value; at $125.00 I would have been even more enthused. At $200+, as it costs now with an inflated euro, it has many competent other choices out there (the hi-output Denon's come to mind).  It now sells for $329.00...which makes it a totally unreasonable value now.

On the Needle Doctor site they also have old reviews of the X3 from 15 years ago (before the X5 was introduced in the line, I presume) from magazines that actually used instruments to measure the cartridge specs.  Unlike today, where too much flowery praise is heaped upon an audio component without looking as to the reasons in our rags. Specs and scientific tests surely aren't going to answer why you would like something or not, but are helpful in determining a path as to why.  I wish that Audio and High Fidelity were still published so we could have some bit of objective relevance to temper our natural subjective exuberance     

[TheChairGuy]

PA (others);

I really took pains to set the X5-MC up in the VPI today uber-correctly...and come up with the same outcome; it's  dang good value for the $125.00 you paid, less so at the $200.00 I paid and overmatched at the $329.00 it sells for now.  It's lack of punch, and so-so tracking really sets makes it a jazz and classical cartridge only.

As a high output cartridge (but only 2 mv), most folks feed it into 47K inputs with bog standard 40db gain.  I used my Musical Surroundings Phenomena phono amp...with it run into 2K input and gain set at 44db.  It greatly benefited from this...the bass was better damped/tighter and it had a slight bit more punch as 44 db gain.

But, it still falls shy in the excitement and dynamics factor....tho it's so-so tracking is greatly helped by the van Alstine Longhorn mod out front.

[Psychicanimal]

When I set up my Creature on Steroids I'll start w/ the Ortofon and give it a second honest listening.  I recently found something that will take the modded Trackmaster to increased HF response, so the comparison will be on more even terms.

I never found the X-5 to be boring; there was a mismatch in tonearm/cartridge resonance and the fluid damper took care of that.  It also improved the X-5's tracking.  Believe it or not, I have a well rounded collection of New Wave albums ( Echo & the Bunnymen, Japan, Martha and the Muffins, New Order, etc) and the X-5 did play them outstandingly.

I wonder, is your preamp battery operated?  What preamp are you using w/ the direct drive?

[TheChairGuy]

I've got a Musical Surrounding Phenomena phono pre with outboard battery pack (connected with low inductance Revelation Audio Labs umbilical - a fine upgrade, brought real punch to the combo).

My main pre is a Dynaco PAS-4 with phono...a very nice unit...but I think the Phenomena pips it by a little.  Tho, with moving magnets, I run them straight into the Dynaco so as to keep overall capacitance down.  The AT440ML, at 490 mH, is critically damped right around the (bog standard) 47K input of the Dynaco...making it the right choice for that application.

But, for the other cartridges in my growing collection  (Grado Green, Ortofon, and vdh re-tipped Blue Point) I use the Phenomena.

[Psychicanimal]

I've got a Musical Surrounding Phenomena phono pre with outboard battery pack (connected with low inductance Revelation Audio Labs umbilical - a fine upgrade, brought real punch to the combo).

Battery preamps have many disadvantages and limitations that need to be addressed.  Lack of punch is one of them and the silver cable should improve the situation.  Since noise control is my area of speciallization handling AC noise is no problema. I've talked to Dusty about this and he says DC power supplies are not easy to deal with.  Given this situation, it's easier to use AC power and properly address the noise.

My main pre is a Dynaco PAS-4 with phono...a very nice unit...but I think the Phenomena pips it by a little.  Tho, with moving magnets, I run them straight into the Dynaco so as to keep overall capacitance down.  The AT440ML, at 490 mH, is critically damped right around the (bog standard) 47K input of the Dynaco...making it the right choice for that application.

But, for the other cartridges in my growing collection  (Grado Green, Ortofon, and vdh re-tipped Blue Point) I use the Phenomena.

You will be surprised what the Dynaco can do if AC noise and vibration are addressed.  If you care to hear some suggestions...

1) ACME silver plated cryo'ed outlet.
2) Cryo'ed Absolute Power Cord MK II
3) Parallel AC filtration on the ACME outlet.
4) Compatible, fast draining cones with a *proper* wood board underneath.  Wood board supported by a rubber/cork/rubber slab.

Try it... aa


Here's a pretty good review of the X-5

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=vinyl&n=149521&review=1

I got some really good insights on where the X-5 actually sits regarding other cartridges.  The boron retip could really step it up aboe the bunch, for sure.

[TheChairGuy]

You will be surprised what the Dynaco can do if AC noise and vibration are addressed.  If you care to hear some suggestions...

1) ACME silver plated cryo'ed outlet.
2) Cryo'ed Absolute Power Cord MK II
3) Parallel AC filtration on the ACME outlet.
4) Compatible, fast draining cones with a *proper* wood board underneath.  Wood board supported by a rubber/cork/rubber slab.

Try it...

I'm pretty much there with those 'upgrades' (or silly expenditures to some)

1. I've got the PAS-4 running into a BPT-2 balanced unit featuring cryo'ed outlets
2. I use Revelation Audio Labs Precept 2 cryo'ed silver power cord
3. Prior to the BPT, I have a Brickwall filter so my system filters out Series Mode (Brickwall) and Differntial (BPT) noise on the line
4.  It sits on 4 extremely effective squishy puds from LAT International that I also use, equally successfully, under my TT

Next up - running a Servo Drive voltage regulator after the Brickwall and before the BPT to insure 120v/60 cycle feed to the components upstream...it should aid in pitch stability, especially during loud passages, and synchonize the VPI's TT motor to perform better  (I know it already works as I used a AVR by CyberPower with battery pack and it did aid performance markedly in some way, but it added to much 'poison' back into the loop).  A better, purpose built servo drive voltage regulator will also help stabilize line voltage for amps and preamps.  Or, so the theory goes 

I don't know if it will help the JVC turntable's DC Servo of internal duties for better perforrmance, but I'll see.

So, you're preaching to the choir about clean power here.

And, I agree about DC vs AC, AC seems to have more grunt and is generally preferred in the various applications I've had them side-by-side.  Tightly regulated AC is preferable than DC to me. 

The Phenomena was a good deal on A-gon (used) at $600.00 for both unit and battery supply.  But, it was a middling combo until the low inductance RAL powercord was introduced to it.  It gave it dynamics where it had none previously   

[Psychicanimal]

Well, I started with a simple noise control/power delivery setup.  Don't want to brag about my specifics, but I've been there and come back to the basics.  Had an Elgar medical grade regenerator and sold it.  My big ONEAC 220V/110V isolation transformer/filter worked better without it (and the system sounded better).  I have three Clear Image T4 quad isolation transformer/filter arrays.  Byron (of AudioPrism) really knows his stuff--had the entire chassis copper clad...

Regarding vibration control, I stay away from sorbothane, vibrapods and all gooey stuff.  I use cones to drain vibrations into non resonant, Caribbean Moca wood boards.  I prefer Goldmund cones but they're expensive and hard to get by in the used market.  Fortunately, I have three sets. aa

Back to the Ortofon...

I think Ortofon is well aware of the X-5's performance and are intentionally keeping the aluminum cantilever. Otherwise, the X-5 would be competing (and beating) several of their higher priced cartridges.  A boron or beryllium cantilever would wreck havoc.  Pocan is such a great material to make a cartridge body!!!

I'm working with Kevin to have my Groovemaster stylus installed in the NOS Trackmaster I cartridge I got in eBay.  Also, If I can have the tonearm rewired I'll have Kevin connect the wiring to a busted Sumiko phono box I have lying around.  If so, I'd drill the phono box to the back of the TT.

Imagine when *you* get there...

[TheChairGuy]

PA,

It's not solely that the X5-MC cantilever is aluminum (all but one or two of the Ortofons are aluminum....and many solid cartridge makers offer nothing but), it's that they use a fat load of a honkin' cantilever with too much mass.  The effective tip mass of that cartridge is 0.75.  Given that it does have some very nice attributes, it might well be a great candidate for re-tipping.

Even the cheap Ortofon DJ cartridges have tip mass of 0.60. Sad that they saddled a nice cartridge with crappy cantilever (but good stylus shape).  Very weird set of attribute 

Unlike the Sumiko Blue Point I have that has internal-to-the-design issues with it (I think), the Ortofon X5-MC is probably just a good cantilever away from really, really good performance.

Just found these (re-tip) guys on the net.....hadn't heard of them before a few days ago:
http://www.sound-smith.com/retip/

[Psychicanimal]

the Ortofon X5-MC is probably just a good cantilever away from really, really good performance.

And Ortofon knows it...

[TheChairGuy]

Ya' know, PA, Ortofon may indeed just know it 

Tho I'm okay with the Grado Green, it really is a bit gritty for me.  The AT440ml/OCC is waaaay cleaner, but the tipped up treble is hard to listen to for long.

So, I was down to the Ortofon X5-MC in my box (among those cartridges with good stylus' left, at least).  I've had some meaningful listening sessions with it - I marvelled at it's amazing clarity (as good as CD in that regard), crystal clear and forgiving treble response and oogie good imaging/soundstaging.  It's also fairly quiet in the grooves...the extreme stylus shape likely help in that regard.

What it's downfall was in dynamics and bass response - yech 

Anyhow, this time I applied the van Alstine Longhorn mod...which undeniably helps tracking (at a 0.75 effective stylus tip mass, it could use that help).  I also put a sliver of Cascade constrained layer damping I had around between cartridge body and headshell - The Plast-i-Lator experiment on the Grado strongly bettered it's bass definition...an area where the Ortofon really needs it. 

I am also running it into all tube amplification which, no doubt, has plumper, rounder bass lines than solid state....encouraging the Ortofon to not sound so lean.

Finally, I have an outboard phono amp...whereas previously I used the 2.0 mv HOMC run right into the pre-amp phono stage.  After using Hagerman Technology's Cartridge Load calculator online, I determined that it was properly damped at about 1K ohm, not the bog standard 47K that it can be used on.  It can be, but is not optimized with 47K ohms.

I have learned if you set the input too high for the cartridge, it will make the resulting sound more spacious / ethereal (exactly what the Ortofon excelled it to the Nth degree).  When it's set too low, it increases bass, focus and dynamics - precisely what's lacking. So, stands to reason, setting the input at optimal 1K load should rectify bass and dynamic issues, while lessening the over-eery 'spaciousness'.

For the lazy, at least with moving coils of any output, the proper setting is about 10x the internal DC resistance.  Unfortunately, so few companies (like it's a state friggin' secret) list their internal inductance, but the few moving coils that did list it with 2-2.5mv output were between 0.5 and 0.9 mH inductance (with other output moving coils, you'll need to summarize a composit sketch of like cartridges if your maker doesn't provide it - and it IS likely they won't).  As well, the inernal DC resistance of the X5-MC is 80 ohm; so with these guides it's a snap to deduce the proper loading for it.

Did it?.... u bet it did.  It has all the clarity and great treble response that I remember, but not with considerably more bass and dynamics.  The imaging/spaciousness issue is less intense (too bad - kinda'), but it's altogether a more enjoyable cartridge now.

Personally, I've never heard a moving coil that has the warm, engaging bass response of (many) moving magnet/iron models...but I prefer coils overall. It's just that THIS cartridge was so deficient in bass, I couldn't hack listening to it on jazz & rock...tho it faired admirably on classcial and new age'ish music.

I'm not sure I can enthusiastically recommend this cartridge at current $329.00 costing...as it requires a separate phono preamp with great flexibility for loading, or a preamp that can be changed to a 1K input with the right resister (if you are handy with solder, the deal gets a bit better).  At $329.00 there are lots of competition for your money...at 60% of that that I paid, and the 35% of that that Psychicanimal paid for it; it's a stone cold bargain.

It may indeed be a re-tip away from being a great one....but right now I'm surpremely pleased NOW with it as is.  At least for now 

[Psychicanimal]

The drinker got drunker,
The thinker got thunker.

( from The madman and I , by ELP Works vol I )

Besides that, a few more things come to my mind:

Although I'm aware of the same weaknesses this cartridge has, I don't have as many complaints as you do.  Perhaps it's because my TTs tonearm is better suited to this cartridge and the quartz lock mechanism can compensate somewhat for the extra drag the higher stylus mass causes.  Perhaps.  I use a Sumiko headshell, which is pretty darn good at controlling resonances.  It could also be your own listening biases towards what bass should sound like:

I am also running it into all tube amplification which, no doubt, has plumper, rounder bass lines than solid state....encouraging the Ortofon to not sound so lean.

Again, I strongly suggest you get one of them Ray Barreto virgin vinyl LPs (just got my copy of Together).  Use it as a reference for rhythm, speed, timing & accuracy.  You will find bass is not plump and round.  Not at all.  The faster, more accurate it gets, the leaner, tighter, smaller it is.  If you lived this side of the ocean and you'd hear a few guys playing congas, timbales and bongos at the beach, where there are no boundaries, you would be convinced about this once and for all.  As a bonus, Orestes Vilató, who later on played with Santana, is the timbales player on early Barreto albums.  Talk about speed...a belt drive's nightmare!!!

I've never set up the Ortofon with the 1200's outboard power supply running.  I am in the process of designing an audio rack with a friend of mine who's a gifted, artistically oriented welder.  After the resistor swap in my Monolithic I can still use 1K Ohm--it was the 100 Ohm setting that got bumped.  That's good to know.  Perhaps the Ortofon will perform best with  a strip of Palo Colorado wood between cartdige body and headshell.  Palo Colorado brings about this deep, spooky bass to whatever it touches.  Yup, that's another of my exotic woods, a wetlands redwood... aa

[TheChairGuy]

PA,

The X5-MC is in my JVF ql-f6 (my main table)..that is direct drive, quartz locked (JVC invented that concept in early 70's) and FG Servo (likely same as Technics and JVC is wholly owned divison of Matsushita).  So, there ain't no stylus drag here, either 

Nor cartridge mismatch as this JVC has (internally) oil damped in both vertical and horizontal planes.  Pretty nifty - one step better than a damping trough which works primarily in horizontal plane only.  I also can dial in the damping level needed...and it does indeed change the sound when you do.  It seems to work best at '2' for the Ortofon...same as it's tracking force (and recvommended in the owners manual).

The JVC headshell that came with it is top notch.  Very inert - feels like aluminum constuction with the best mounting method I've ever had here.

Nope, I think the major difference is critically damping it at 1k.  The van Alstine Longhorn gave it a bit more heft and better tracking (it's actully dang good now) and the constrained layer damping increased instrument separation and generally made it cleaner.

I think you're gonna' find terrific improvement in dynamics and bass power when inputting inot 1K...at the slight expense of 'plushness' (which you may not even realize now that it is).  The tradeoff is fine, tho.  Bumping it to 2k gives you a bit more plushness back, with very little loss of  'thwack'.  I have that value available to me, too...it may be where it ends up as I think it sounds balanced there. 

I love the flexibility of this phono pre...and the fact that capacitance in the chain is realtively unimportant factor...it goes out to over 200 or 300khz; not dead stop before 20khz as is the case with any moving magnet in the 450mh+ inductance and up range 

I had a great day listening to it today....bass was just fine and the clarity and upper registers were stunning.  I have zero real complaints now - that was the point of my last post on it - I think you misunderstood it (read it again)

[Psychicanimal]

I have zero real complaints now - that was the point of my last post on it - I think you misunderstood it (read it again)

I've been high on NyQuil for one week now; missed quite a few days of work...

Glad you're done toying around with the cartridge. You know, unless it's a Sure or a Stanton, trackability is not going to be up there anyway.  Getting a hold of one of them Sure 'obstacle course' test records will help you quantify trackability while eliminating other variables that are added when playing music.

A friend of mine has one of them JVC's with servo arm & associated bells & whistles.  I've been telling him to get a surplus power supply from eBay and use it outboard.  That would be your next upgrade...

I'm going to the beach to clean my respiratory conduits...

[TheChairGuy]

A friend of mine has one of them JVC's with servo arm & associated bells & whistles.  I've been telling him to get a surplus power supply from eBay and use it outboard.  That would be your next upgrade...

PA: you mentioned this earlier and I meant to ask...what type of 'surplus' power supply are you talking about?  What goes into installing one for the JVC?

I don't solder, so I'd have to find someone to install it I s'pose?

Nyquil sounds enjoyable  I'm not sure I ever had it as child or adult

[BoemPaukeslag]

I tend to agree with many of the people here on its tonal character (silky & fluent) ánd on its lack of dynamics. I ran it on my Linn Axis with Manticore arm and was initially very pleased with the details and silky tones, but after a while started to miss the punch of my previous MM's. I'm now running a Linn Arkiv and happy again...

btw I also used different settings for my phono pre but that didn't really solve it for me.

[TheChairGuy]

btw I also used different settings for my phono pre but that didn't really solve it for me.

Hi Boem,

Welcome to AudioCircle and, more specifically, the Vinyl Circle   

I don't know if you still own your X5-MC, but perhaps part of the shortfall of bass/dynamics (other than loading at 1K - which you've done) is the rattling Noryl (plastic) cartridge body.  The Longhorn modification will both help tracking and damp the cartridge body...no bad thing either.

Some Plast-i-Clay or constrained layer damping between body and headshell would also help solve issue.  It has, at least, for me. There's a few topics devoted to tweeks on The Vinyl Circle. These tweeks, with proper loading (and matign to tube amps now) have transformed my characterization of the cartridge.

I notice no particular shortfall of bass now with the cartridge...and still have that creamy, silky smoothness in tact.  It is, in fact, a great cartridge for what I paid for it $200.00) now 

[BoemPaukeslag]

I don't know if you still own your X5-MC, but perhaps part of the shortfall of bass/dynamics (other than loading at 1K - which you've done) is the rattling Noryl (plastic) cartridge body.  The Longhorn modification will both help tracking and damp the cartridge body...no bad thing either.

Thanks, and thanks for the tip. I'd never heard of it before, but it sounds interesting, I've always felt a bit suspicious for the extremely low weight. But wouldn't it affect the compliance of the cartridge? I had thought there would be some reasoning behind the low weight.
Anyway, the cartridge is now sitting unused somewhere in a closet, so I'll definitely try it! (When I can find the time)