NuForce Ref 9.02 vs. AES Six Pacs

PaulFolbrecht · « **on:** 6 Jun 2006, 04:00 am »

The Pacs have been my favorite amps of all time (that I owned). I love their lush, flowing mids and solid images. I love everything they do to music.

After reading about them for a year, I've decided to try switching amps. I have heard the NuForce and Bel Cantos compared to tube amps so often I have to try them. Heard so many many glowing, incredible reviews. BC isn't even doing tubes anymore! They made some of the very best SET stuff in the world.

So, I'm a tube guy, love lush mids, but love detail, accuracy, and a black, black background (0 noise) as well.

The (used) NuForces are on the way. Who thinks I'll be impressed and who thinks I'll resell them and keep my Six Pacs?

zybar · « **Reply #1 on:** 6 Jun 2006, 08:18 am »

You certainly aren't getting lush and flowing mids with the NuForce amps.

Not sure who is comparing NuForce to tubes, but they are very different in their presentation.

I just bought a pair of CI D-200's (which I think sound better than the NuForce - not as cold and sterile in the midrange and highs) and they don't sound like tubes either.

Best of luck and I hope you got the NuForce at a good price.

George

PaulFolbrecht · « **Reply #2 on:** 6 Jun 2006, 02:14 pm »

Several reviews have commented that the mids are tube-like. I'm talking about the 9.02s, which are supposed to be much better than the 9s.

I did get a good price, and can easily get my money back out if I don't like them.

Any former tube guys out there at all that have gone to analog switching amps? As I noted (I think), bel canto used to make fantastic SET gear and now makes only SS switching amps. Have to be some converts out there...

Paul

Gordy · « **Reply #3 on:** 6 Jun 2006, 03:46 pm »

I'm a VAC Avatar owner and am running modified UcD400 amps, does that count? I've also owned, own or have experience with 4 other switching amps and a few ss amps (Butler, AKSA, Odyssey) and diy chip amps in my system. I've not heard the latest 9 series Nuforce amps, but have heard the two precursers...

To my mind and ear we're dealing with three distinct amp types, each with their own set of characteristics, benefits and faults. There is some overlap with the best of each group, but they remain different! Perhaps the tube sound references came from early reviewers (and people like me) who lacked the vocabulary and or experience with switching amps to properly describe the differences to with ss that they heard?

The best of the switching amps have the power and control that my speakers love, but are very neutral across the spectrum, even a bit dry in the mids/upper mids to my ear. They are also very sensitive to the quality of the ac line feeding them, more so than other amps I've experienced. The top end of a stock TEAC L700? amp, for instance, softened up very nicely when fed with a balanced power conditioner. I've also found that proper feeding with a tube pre gives me the small amount of midrange richness I love! YMMV of course... HTH!!!

PaulFolbrecht · « **Reply #4 on:** 6 Jun 2006, 05:08 pm »

Gordy,

I plan to run the NuForce's with my PrimaLuna 3. Exceptionally quiet tube pre with very nice mids.

I have been told that the designer of the Channel Island stuff demos his blocks with a tube pre. Makes sense that it makes a good combination.

What you said about them being a new breed altogether certainly is logical - they are. No surprise that the sound is essentially new, too.

Actually, I have a hard time imagining I'll like these or any switching amps better than my Six Pacs. I find it so difficult to pull myself away from the music whenever I listen to them. But we'll see.

Jon L · « **Reply #5 on:** 6 Jun 2006, 05:30 pm »

You'll only be disappointed if you expect NuForce to emulate the Sixpac sound. Just make sure to feed them clean AC, preferably with superior copper power cord with good shielding.

PaulFolbrecht · « **Reply #6 on:** 6 Jun 2006, 07:57 pm »

Well, I certainly don't expect or want them to sound *exactly* the same. Would would sell me is if they have the great qualities people speak of - speed, ultra-low noise, unbeatable dynamics - along with real midrange sweetness. I have never before heard these amps described as sterile or dry!

But, we'll see! They are due here Friday.

toobluvr · « **Reply #7 on:** 6 Jun 2006, 08:19 pm »

You want tube sound, listen to tubes.

Can't tell you how many times I've listened to the "latest and greatest" sand amp...ya know...the one that "sounds just like tubes"...only to be disappointed.

I think most tube devotees will tell ya the same thing.

Maybe with one possible exception...DartZeel.

PaulFolbrecht · « **Reply #8 on:** 6 Jun 2006, 09:26 pm »

Is it that simple? Perhaps. Point is, this stuff IS new. They aren't like A or AB solid-state.

Don't you think that, *eventually*, it won't take 80-year-old technology with massive, hugely inefficient power supplies to get superlative sound? I love tubes, and I love the way tube amps look, and their mass and size, and everything about them, but I'm game to try something really new, something with as much hype as these new amps.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #9 on:** 6 Jun 2006, 09:29 pm »

I recently hosted an amp comparison event earlier this year just for the latest digital amps.

You can read all about it here: http://www.gr-research.com/amps/amps.htm

I got to spend a lot of time with some of these amps including the latest NuForce amps (at least the latest at the time).

I have tried to stay pretty neutral for the whole thing, but I will say this. There weren't any amps present that would outperform my Dodd Audio tube mono-blocks.

While some of them did have a fairly smooth midrange compared to typical high quality solid state amps, they were no where near my tube amps.

toobluvr · « **Reply #10 on:** 6 Jun 2006, 09:41 pm »

Quote from: Danny

..........
I have tried to stay pretty neutral for the whole thing, but I will say this. There weren't any amps present that would outperform my Dodd Audio tube mono-blocks......

I too own Dodd 120 monos.
Like I say....you want tube sound...get tube amps!

Having said that, I will say these Dodds are definitely not your father's tube amps! No vintage romantic sludge here. Fast, dynamic, transparent and detailed, but still robust, musical and involving. More neutral and accurate than I am accustomed to, having listened to SET for the last few years. It took some time getting used to the Dodd sound, but the tube flavor is definitely present. Very, very good amps.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #11 on:** 6 Jun 2006, 10:05 pm »

Quote

Having said that, I will say these Dodds are definitely not your father's tube amps! No vintage romantic sludge here. Fast, dynamic, transparent and detailed, but still robust, musical and involving. More neutral and accurate than I am accustomed to, having listened to SET for the last few years. It took some time getting used to the Dodd sound, but the tube flavor is definitely present. Very, very good amps.

I couldn't agree more. They do everything that most tube amps don't and still sound lush, musical, and have a huge airy sound stage.

Mine are the newer 50 watt mono-blocks. I love them.

toobluvr · « **Reply #12 on:** 6 Jun 2006, 10:12 pm »

Quote from: Danny

I couldn't agree more. They do everything that most tube amps don't and still sound lush, musical, and have a huge airy sound stage.

Hey Danny.....spot on.

thanks for reminding me of the stuff I left out!

PaulFolbrecht · « **Reply #13 on:** 6 Jun 2006, 10:50 pm »

There is little information on the amps on the Dodd site. What's the topology? Tubes used? Neg feedback, specs?

Have you guys ever heard the AES Six Pacs? Lushest mids I've heard, though I haven't heard that many tube amps for a serious listen. (Not that there aren't better amps out there. There surely are.)

toobluvr · « **Reply #14 on:** 6 Jun 2006, 11:15 pm »

Quote from: PaulFolbrecht

There is little information on the amps on the Dodd site. What's the topology? Tubes used? Neg feedback, specs?
........

straight from the horses mouth...see Gary's post here, third from bottom:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=18224&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20

I believe all is accurate, except the part about the fans....
He changed the layout for better cooling, so they are no longer needed.

I believe they run in ultra-linear.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

For el34, I prefer the SED winged C's to the stock JJ.

For input tube, getting real nice results with Philips SQ 5687, Sylvania Gold Brand 5687, GE 7044, and RCA bronze plate 5687.

Haven't played around with them much, but 5687 driver tubes don't seem to effect the sound as much as the input tube.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #15 on:** 7 Jun 2006, 01:01 am »

Changing out the input tubes has the biggest effect. I am running 7044's in my 50 watters. His front end stage is really where its at with these. That and the high quality components used throughout. He uses Sonicaps too.

What is really ground breaking is the new battery powered tube pre-amp. This is the best I have heard, price no object, and I have A/B'ed it against some top notch pre-amps.

JoshK · « **Reply #16 on:** 7 Jun 2006, 01:06 am »

Does he make those 50watters, or were they a one off concoction? They aren't on his website. What is the output tube used?

Danny Richie · « **Reply #17 on:** 7 Jun 2006, 01:18 am »

Mine were the first ones made.

The production units will have a slightly smaller, but slightly taller chassis. For mine he used his standard 120 watt chassis.

The new ones will be trimmed in solid hardwood on the front as well so that it matches the new pre-amps.

I am about to update my cosmetics with quilted Maple sides and front, a chrome top plate, and chrome cans for the transformers.

The output tube is a single 829B.

I'd look for them and updates on all of his other products to appear on the web site in a few months.

Gordy · « **Reply #18 on:** 7 Jun 2006, 02:36 am »

Danny, any updates on when the Dodd pre might be available? Sorry if this has been posted elsewhere...

Danny Richie · « **Reply #19 on:** 7 Jun 2006, 03:36 am »

When I talked to him earlier today it sounded like this first production run was getting close. By the end of this week all will be in but the wood trim pieces. They still need engraving and the high gloss lacquer clear coat.

I am really looking forward to mine.