GIK panels

Rob Babcock · « **on:** 22 May 2006, 01:28 am »

Having just moved into a new house within the last few days I've vowed to "do it right" this time in terms of acoustics. Since I don't even have my system set up yet, now is the time to start planning the room treatments I'll buy. I recall Marbles saying good things about the panels from GIK, and I must say it would be tough to even DIY at the prices they charge.

For those who've used them, how do they stack up vs foam and the panels/treatments by, um, other companies?

On paper it looks like the 6" panel has virtually no peers as a bass absorber. Do I read that correctly, 3.0 @ 80 hz?!

Marbles · « **Reply #1 on:** 22 May 2006, 01:34 am »

They work great..much better looking and acting than the foam I had used.

I had not used Ethan Winers stuff, but I did get a chance to see it at TomS's.

While the GIK stuff looks very nice, the EW panels were a tad more proffesional looking.

I can easily recommend the 4" and 6" GIK panels (real life more like 5.5" and 7")

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #2 on:** 22 May 2006, 01:44 am »

How many do you use, Rob, and where do you mount them? Their site suggests straddling the corners and placed at the point of first reflection.

TomS · « **Reply #3 on:** 22 May 2006, 01:56 am »

Put them everywhere that 2 or more planes intersect first (corners, wall/ceiling boundaries, etc), then do the first reflection points. Ethan's Realtraps site has very good visuals and general recommendations that could be applied to your choice of treatments - GIK, Realtraps, etc. The traps yielded the most dramatic and satisfying sonic improvement for the dollars spent I've ever had, compared to changing out components and cabling.

Marbles · « **Reply #4 on:** 22 May 2006, 02:07 am »

I use 6, 4 4", and 2 6"

One 4" in the front right corner, sitting on a subwoofer.

2 6" and 2 4" cover my fireplace wall (first reflection for both speakers) and one in the rear of the room.

95bcwh · « **Reply #5 on:** 22 May 2006, 02:29 am »

If you want to save time, you should definitely get the GIK panel or Eighth Nerve products.

I was looking into these product before, but then I decided to go the DIY route just to burn some fat off my belly..

I have been reading all the excellent and unselfish posts by Ethan and bpape + many other members of this forum. I finally ordered 18 panels of 2", 4PCF rock wool, and another 18 panels of 2", 8PCF rock wool. If I'm not mistaken, the GIK panels uses 8PCF rock wool board too.

I stacked 1 board of 2" 4PCF and 1 board of 2" 8PCF to make a 4" board. The 4PCF will face into the room and the 8PCF is behind. Each mineral wool board is 2 ft x 4 ft. The idea is I want to use the 4 PCF to absorb higher frequency and then the 8PCF to absorb the low frequency, doing it the other way round will cause the high frequency to be reflected by the 8PCF. I hope to kill two bird with one stone.

I will position my panels such that there will be some gap between the panel and the wall so sound can travel behind the panel and be trapped.

The total cost of materials is as follow (per acoustic board):

Rockwool (1x 2" 4PCF + 1x2" 8PCF) = $8.2 (from a local distributor)
Wooden frame (12 ft of 1"x2" lumber) = $3 (from Lowe's)
Polyester batting = $2.1 (from Walmart)
Fabric (3 yard x 44" wide) = $3 (from Walmart)

Total cost per acoustic panel = $16.3

Each acoustic panel took me about 20 minutes to assemble. In fact, I just got started this morning, it took me about 2 hours to make 6 acoustic panels. So it will take another 4 hours for me to finish the remaining 12 panels.

All in all I will have a whopping 18 acoustic panels, 4" thickness each. I think that probably more than enough for my small room. The total cost of material? About $260 in total!

GIK panel are extremely good priced, but you need to factor in shipping, which will be about $30.. so you cost per panel is between $90 to 100.

I have thought of using Owen's Corning 703 and 705, but they're double the price of the rockwool and does not absorb any better!

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #6 on:** 22 May 2006, 02:37 am »

Thanks, 95bcwh. I have of course considered DIY'ing but I don't have any of my tools up here yet, nor a garage, etc. Time is a factor too- I foresee many 50+ hour weeks over the next three months or so as I try to whip this place (at my job) into shape. If I could use the mitre box back in SF it would help but then I'd have to get them back here and my car is relatively small.

True, shipping can be a doozy with the GIK panels. Around 1/3 of the cost of the whole shebang. But even at that price they're probably still a good deal compared to many competitors, assuming the measurements aren't inflated. The Monster Traps, in particular, look superb.

They'd better hope Monster Cables doesn't get wind of their name!

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #7 on:** 22 May 2006, 02:38 am »

BTW, have you installed any of your DIY panels yet? I'm curious to see how they work for you. For the price savings it might be worth scrounging up some tools.

mfsoa · « **Reply #8 on:** 22 May 2006, 02:44 am »

I just installed some GIKs, so I'll add my .02 if it helps anyone:
I need to sit with the rear wall about a foot behind my head, so I felt that I really needed to deaden that wall. I installed 3 of the 2", 2x4 ft panels vertically, with about an inch between them to add some architectural interest, as my wife called it.
The panels do a great job of deadening the reflections and have made a huge improvement in the sound of my system, as well as adding to the "peace and quiet" sensation of the room. We plan on covering with some interesting fabrics.
Quality: I would consider them to be in the "very good DIY" class - Something that I could possibly make, and if I did would think I did a damn good job of it! I haven't seen a RealTrap in person but the pics do look like they are much more professionaly made. But at I think $600 for the RealTraps vs $150 for the GIK, I feel satisfied with my purchase. Not saying which is better, but I simply could not swing the RealTraps now.
I anticipate adding 2 of the 6" GIKs which I plan on using in the front of the room, laying horizontally, angled against the front wall/floor interface.

95bcwh · « **Reply #9 on:** 22 May 2006, 02:51 am »

Quote from: Rob Babcock

BTW, have you installed any of your DIY panels yet? I'm curious to see how they work for you. For the price savings it might be worth scrounging up some tools.

Rob, I haven't installed them yet.. in fact I have no speakers in my room yet! My Salk Veracity HT3 will arrive some times next week so I still have time to finish my remaining panels.

The unfortunate thing is I cannot compare mine with other commercial products. But my logic tells me that, as long as I'm using the same materials, I don't see why mine will sound worse? Unless they put something "magic" inside their panels.

When it comes to tools, all I used was corner braces and screws (oops, I forgot to include this in the costing, I bought 100 corner braces from ebay for about $16 including shipping, I used 4 braces to make each wooden frame, so add $2 dollar per panel to my cost estimate), and then I use stapler gun to staple the fabric onto the wooden frame. I use Scissors to cut the polyester batting into the correct size.

When I buy the lumber at Lowe's, I told them to cut it into the length I need.

So, no expensive tools whatsoever. Just your two hands and time. Oh, I also forgot, I have my dad helping me out, so it's 4 hands in total

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #10 on:** 22 May 2006, 02:57 am »

I like the look of the Real Traps and Ethan is among the most friendly and helpful guys out there in the field of room treatment, but...having just spent a couple grand moving, etc I can't really swing the $$$ for the RT's, either. Although I'm sure it'd be money well spent.

95bcwh · « **Reply #11 on:** 22 May 2006, 03:19 am »

I have just taken a few shots...you can take a look here:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/barryhii/album?.dir=/86c1re2&.src=ph&.tok=phKG95EBdMxXtC8z

Sorry if you don't like my choice of fabric, they're on sales at Walmart at $1 per yard and they are 100% cotton and open-weaves. I can pick much better looking one but it will double the cost.

I plan to shoot more pictures tomorrow so I can show all the steps in the correct sequence. But in a nutshell it's like this:

1. Lay the fabric on a table
2. Lay the polyester batting (45" x 59") on top of the fabric
3. Lay the 2" 4PCF on the polyester batting
4. Lay the 2" 8PCF on top of the 4PCF
5. Lay a sheet of thin paper (24" x 48") on top of the 8PCF rockwool board, use adhesive tape to stick the paper onto the rockwool
6. Lay a wooden frame on top of the paper
7. Flip the polyester, fabric around from all sides, staple the fabric on the wooden frame.

That's it, you have a panel. I use the polyester batting to stop the rock wool from flying out because I'm using open-weaves fabric. I use the paper on the back side for the same reason. However, I don't use the paper on the front side because I don't want it to reflect high frequency.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #12 on:** 22 May 2006, 03:27 am »

How stiff are the rock wool sheets? Are they somewhat flexible or very rigid?

95bcwh · « **Reply #13 on:** 22 May 2006, 03:31 am »

Quote from: Rob Babcock

How stiff are the rock wool sheets? Are they somewhat flexible or very rigid?

They are not so rigid, not so flexible, at the same time they're somewhat flexible but rigid enough to stand on their own. You get the idea?

Glenn K · « **Reply #14 on:** 22 May 2006, 02:00 pm »

wow guys thank you so much for all the great things you are saying about us!!! I really mean that..

As far as shipping cost (someone said something). Yes shipping can be high, but it not taking the price per panel to $90.00 to $100.00. It is more like $65.00 to $75.00 per panel (GIK 244) depending on what part of the country you are in.

Glenn

zybar · « **Reply #15 on:** 22 May 2006, 02:07 pm »

Quote from: 95bcwh

I have just taken a few shots...you can take a look here:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/barryhii/album?.dir=/86c1re2&.src=ph&.tok=phKG95EBdMxXtC8z

Sorry if you don't like my choice of fabric, they're on sales at Walmart at $1 per yard and they are 100% cotton and open-weaves. I can pick much better looking one but it will double the cost.

Spend the extra money on the fabric!

George

95bcwh · « **Reply #16 on:** 22 May 2006, 02:36 pm »

Quote from: Glenn K

wow guys thank you so much for all the great things you are saying about us!!! I really mean that..

As far as shipping cost (someone said something). Yes shipping can be high, but it not taking the price per panel to $90.00 to $100.00. It is more like $65.00 to $75.00 per panel (GIK 244) depending on what part of the country you are in.

Glenn

Glenn, my apology, didn't mean to mislead anyone here. I just went to ebay and look at your GIK244 panels, and it's about $88 including shipping.... so yes, my mistake.

95bcwh · « **Reply #17 on:** 22 May 2006, 02:40 pm »

Quote from: zybar

Spend the extra money on the fabric!

George

It's too late now, I have bought everything!!! I guess I just have to swallow it for the rest of my life

Actually I have planned to hide these panels behind curtains (expensive curtains, made with open-weaves fabric again) on all side of my wall....so me and my guests won't have to suffer too much

Glenn K · « **Reply #18 on:** 22 May 2006, 05:06 pm »

Quote from: 95bcwh

Quote from: Glenn K
wow guys thank you so much for all the great things you are saying about us!!! I really mean that..

As far as shipping cost (someone said something). Yes shipping can be high, but it not taking the price per panel to $90.00 to $100.00. It is more like $65.00 to $75.00 per panel (GIK 244) depending on what part of the country you are in.

Glenn

Glenn, my apology, didn't mean to mislead anyone here. I just went to ebay and look at your GIK244 panels, and it's about $88 including shipping.... so yes, my mistake.

Oh I see how you come up with that number. If you go to our website you will see we sell them in boxes of 2. So for someone in NY it is $27.00 per box of 2 ($73.49 per panel with shipping). Now if you live in Alaska you can count on it being more like $120.00 per panel!!!! ha ha ha.. Believe it or not we had one guy buy 12 panels that lived out in the boonies in Alaska and had to fly them in with a plane that lands on ICE!!! I think the shipping for that was something like $900.00.. J

Glenn

Campindog · « **Reply #19 on:** 23 May 2006, 02:37 am »

I've used both Ethan and Glenn's panels in the past and can honestly say they are both great products. Each has strengths and weaknesses. Here's my SUBJECTIVE take on the two. I don't have before/after measurements and they were in two different rooms (similar equipment). Both rooms ended up sounding great.. Your mileage may vary...

Room 1: 20x23 w/12' cathedral ceiling, carpeted, stuffed couches, closed
from the rest of the house, symmetrical. Listening position @ 38% off rear wall.
Big boomy bass, some slap echo, but not really bad.
I added 4 mondo traps, 4 mini traps and 16 2x2 home made panels at 1st
reflection points.

Bass is now well defined.
Midrange cleaned up.
The room is very neutral, not too dead, not too live. I love the way it
turned out. Probably the best sounding room I've (not?) heard. I would add more mini traps if I could w/o making the room look goofy. They don't seem to deaden the room too much.
Money well spent.
Too much money well spent
RealTraps have very sharp corners and I gouged my walls in several spots. Little plastic corners like the ones on guitar amps would fix this.

Room 2: ~16x25x8. Hardwoods, open to rest of the house on one side, bay window on the other side. Leather furniture. Asymmetrical room. Set up on long wall with couch against rear wall. HUGE echo problem. Bass was muddy, sub was easily located and would not integrate with mains. Highs sounded harsh. Speakers, rack, TV, etc. were not centered on the front wall. One of the worst rooms acoustically I've ever heard.
This is a friends system and since he was procrastinating on making his own panels and didn't want to spend what I did, I pointed him towards GIK's. He bought 6, 4" traps and stacked them in 3 corners (two front, one rear). And he added an area rug.

Had a little more trouble getting the right sound. One speaker was ~1'
closer to the panels than the other and the bass sounded lopsided. One
speaker had more bass and was boomy. We ended up centering the system in the room and it sounded great. (I wish we could have turned it 90* and set up on short wall.) Both speakers are the same distance from panels and sound the same. The echo in the room is gone. Bass was improved to the point were my friend removed his Velodyne SMS 1 (EQ) from his system because he felt he didn't need it anymore. The sub blends with the mains great.
Imaging improved, but the big improvement was the overall balance high to
low of the system. I wouldn't want to add more panels in the room or it
might sound too dead. One of the panels had a stain on it from the factory
and Glenn said he'd replace it, no problem. I don't know if that happened.

Depending on budget and the needs of the room, I have no problem
recommending either panel (and they are a lot nicer than my home made ones).