[PaulFolbrecht]

Hi,

Currently have two systems: main is powered with AES Six Pacs (PrimaLuna 3 preamp) and the 2nd system is currently powered with a Melody SP3.

The Melody is a wonderful amp, but the triode sound of the Pacs has grown on me so much that I want to replace it with a triode integrated - either triode-only or something with a triode/UL switch.

Front-runners are the Cayin 88, Cayin 50, and Stingray.  I've read all the Stingray reviews but would appreciate first-hand comments as well.  Reviews seem to be very scarce at this point on the Cayin products.

Re: the 88 vs the 50: I prefer EL34 sound but not sure if the 50s 16W in triode are enough for my Gibbon 3 monitors.  Probably, but not necessarily.  I don't listen too loud -85db.

Appreciate comments from anyone, on these or other choices!  Thanks!

Paul

[toobluvr]

I have no experience w the Cayins or the Stingray, but I do own Antique Sound Lab AQ1001 DT:

http://www.divertech.com/asl1001dt.html

I use it in a small room in my "junior system", teamed w Audio Aero Prima cdp and Spendor S6 speakers.

Do not be fooled by appearances.  It may not have fancy looks (actually, I like the look) or a fancy nameplate, but this integrated offers serious high-end sound that is robust, detailed, sweet and refined.  Especially when stock tubes are replaced with "solid plate" Shuguang kt88sc.  

See them here:

http://www.pentalaboratories.com/product.asp?pf%5Fid=KT88SC+SHUGUANG+MP&dept%5Fid=5020

Excellent for late night listening.  If fluidity, presence, and musicality are your thing, this is the tube.   Great for just kickin' back, gettin' your groove on,  and gettin' drawn into the music.

Bill Baker of Response Audio sums it up well:

"The Shuguang KT88-98....... a very good tube for those who want to sit back and become one with the music. Lots of body and soul with this tube."

He goes on to say:

"For the emotional, seductive tube sound while maintaining detail, resolution and transparency, I have found the Shuguang KT88-98 to be among the best."

This kt88-98 tube has received much positive press in the audio boards, but is considered by many who have compared both, to be inferior to the kt88sc solid plate version I mentioned above.  

See discussion here:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?htech&1137889853&openfrom&1&4#1

The AQ1001 DT offers:
50 wpc in pentode, 29 in triode.....
Seriously hefty and very solid construction....
Dead easy to bias....
4 and 8 ohm outputs.
Remote volume control.

I've owned mine for about 6 months....
Stable and quiet as a tomb...not an untoward noise or peep out of it.
Big, sophisticated, and shockingly good sound.
When I have exerienced audio buddies over for a listen, the usual reaction is head-shaking disbelief.  

Great value....can be had for about $800 used.
Performs way beyond its price tag.
And Bill Baker at Response offers mods/upgrades on it that I'm sure makes it even better.

Do some research on this one.
You will find many people preferring it to much pricier offerings.
On occasion, I insert it into my main rig, and it doesn't come close to embarrassing itself.  In there, it produces a sound that is full, warm, earthy, organic and always musical.

Good luck in your search.

John

PS:  I too usually like el34 based amps, but I don't know that I would get too hung up on one particular tube over another.  I owned a Kora Design 30 integrated for awhile.  It was el34, postitively reviewed, and highly thought of in general.  I much prefer my KT88 based ASL 1001.

[kck]

We can discuss more in PMs if you'd like, but several months ago I started on an odyssey of budget tubed integrateds. Since then, I have owned or tried:

Golden Tube Si 50 MkII
PrimaLuna Prologue Two
Onix SP3
ASL MG15 Si DT
Manley Stingray w/o triode
Manley Stingray w/triode switch.

I still have the triode Stingray and use it nearly every day. It is NOT for sale unless you paid me enough, but 'enough' at this time would let me buy a new one with money left over.  
 

 I would consider trying the ASL 1001 mentioned above if it were easy enough. However, during my time with the PL2 I did not much care for the sound of the KT88 tube (I know many will disagree). I did like the EL34 sound from the Golden Tube but did not want to buy that particular amp (it was on loan) for other reasons.

[nathanm]

I've owned both ASL and Manley amps and I can tell you that the build quality in the Manley stuff will be considerably better than ASL.   Not that ASL is junk, but Manley just gave me a much better impression.  (of course, you will PAY for this quality)  You will also get better tech support.  The Stingray sounds great, but damn does it get hot!  I noticed that they are including some of the previous extra options as stock now.  If I were wealthier I would own more Manley gear for sure.  There's nothing that seems chintzy or ill-conceived on it.  Well, actually the speaker posts and their close proximity to each other and the output transformer makes it hard to turn with normal human fingers, but hey you only have to do it once.  Or not at all if you use bananas...

[toobluvr]

...........

I would consider trying the ASL 1001 mentioned above if it were easy enough. However, during my time with the PL2 I did not much care for the sound of the KT88 tube (I know many will disagree). I did like the EL34 sound from the Golden Tube but did not want to buy that particular amp (it was on loan) for other reasons.  

I repeat...
Do not be so quick to assert that sound quality, or lack thereof, can be surmised simply based on the output tube alone.  In my estimation, that is a generalization, and a mistake.  

Your experience with the PL2 is no more representative of "the sound of the kt88 tube" than is the Golden Tube representative of the el34 tube. Both good and bad sounding amps can be found with either output tube.  Many things, including design, topology and parts quality can influence the final sonics just as much.......if not more.

I too once thought I preferred el34 based amps.
I thought them to be more refined, musical and sophisticated sounding than other common pentodes.
That is, until I heard the ASL AQ-1001DT.
Then I had to adjust my view and stop generalizing.

Many, many examples of superb sounding KT-88 based amps abound.
Just off the top of my head, consider the following:

ASL Hurricanes
Art Audio (various)
Sonic Frontiers (various)
Music Reference RM200
Quicksilver v4

All considered excellent by many, and by just about any measure.
And there are many, many more.

[kck]

Nathanm, well said on all counts but one, sort of. The newest Stingray design positions the binding posts horizontally and away from the transformer. In the first Stingray I owned the vertical orientation annoyed me too. (look closely at the pics on Manley's site to see the new position).

Another difference is that the volume pot is no longer notched but smooth. This is (at least partly) in response to a review (I think it was Stereophile) that sort of complained about the notches being too far apart although volume can be set between notches. No need to worry about that now.

I did not mention earlier that the ASL I bought as a demo had QC problems, the main reason I did not keep it although it sounded very good. OTOH, the three Stingrays I have owned (yes, 3, I kept upgrading to newer/better optioned models) were all flawless in every way, even the used one.
 
This is a company that is smart, responsive and dedicated to customer satisfaction (traits that reflect its owner and chief designer, the Vanimal). There are others who match this description but Manley must surely figure in the highest percentiles.  The products hold resale value, are very sturdy, and most are quite unique in aesthetic design (is there anything out there even remotely like a Stingray - like it or not?). And finally, the sound is rich and robust, with speed, resolution and ability to handle nuance well although the sound is so balanced overall that nothing particularly stands out when listening.  It is the type of sound that impresses the one person who matters most - its owner. (yes, I shamelessly borrowed that line from some ad copy stuck in my memory).

There is some heat from the 12 tubes used, but as they are all small, I don't think it is overall any hotter than, say, the PrimaLuna I had. I am very aware of heat, living in the South, and would not accept an overly hot amp, one reason I have not tried an 845 amp although I am told they sound great.

I should also mention that my non-audiophile-but-humors-me family members all love the Stingray for its looks and the fact that it is perhaps the only amp I have owned (and I have owned a few) that does not have any sort of edge to the sound whatsoever.  I can play loud with the brood around and while it does make conversation difficult, no one really complains. It helps that even though they are not loony audiophiles (one per family is enough) they ARE music lovers.

[PaulFolbrecht]

Thanks, guys, for all the replies!

kck, what were your thoughts on the Onix?  Compared to the Stingray?

Loony audiophile I am as well as there's really nothing I *don't* like about the SP3 - it's just that I love the bloom of the Six Pacs - be it due to the triode operation or 0 negative feedback or both or a whole bunch of things.  That's the sound I'm going for.

I suppose the safest choice would be to buy a Cary SLI 80 integrated but they are pricey.

Paul

[kck]

toobluvr, our posts crossed...agree with your premise and did not mean to imply that all KT-88s would not suit me. All generalizations are flawed (er, including this one?).

But human nature being what it is, one hesitates to go in again for a design/concept/type of thing that has caused dissatisfaction before (and thus, many miss out on the obviously improved quality of Japanese autos since the '70s).

I would embrace the opportunity to give a well-designed KT-88 amp a try. It is possible that it was just that particular implementation.

[nathanm]

Actually now that you mention the volume knob kck - mine is smooth now, but I swore it was stepped when I first got it.  And I thought there was a center detent in the balance knob, but that's gone too.  I am not sure what the mechanical structure is of the average pot, but mine seems to have un-detented itself somehow.  Weird.  So if that's true I take back all the nice things I said before - stoopit junky knobs!  Buncha trash that's all! No but seriously, I think it's safe to say that no matter what, if you choose to use a tube amp it's going to require more maintainence and fuss.  But what is Hi-Fi if not love of fussing!?

[kck]

mine is smooth now, but I swore it was stepped when I first got it.  And I thought there was a center detent in the balance knob, but that's gone too.

Wow, that's the weirdest thing I've heard. Maybe Manley's software, built into all products, automagically connects to their ongoing fixes via a wireless connection to your computer that you are not even aware of, goes to their site, and the downloads even affect hardware!

Seriously, that would blow my mind. Wouldn't you like to call and find out wassup? Best I know the smooth knob is quite recent. My previous Stingray, built I believe early 2005, had notched volume, although I wouldn't swear to it as it is gone now and no way to check. But I do recall being very surprised when I got this one a coupla months ago, as I had LIKED the notches and actually emailed to comment. Since then, I have started to like and appreciate the smooth motion -- much better control, which of course was the point.

[toobluvr]

I've owned both ASL and Manley amps and I can tell you that the build quality in the Manley stuff will be considerably better than ASL.   Not that ASL is junk, but Manley just gave me a much better impression.  (of course, you will PAY for this quality)  You will also get better tech support.  The Stingray sounds great, but damn does it get hot!  I noticed that they are including some of the previous extra options as stock now.  If I were wealthier I would own more Manley gear for sure.  There's nothing tha ...

I too have owned several pieces of Manley gear, and several pieces of ASL gear.  I agree that Manley build quality is better and more reliable.  And I have indeed had a greater incidence of breakdown with the ASL gear.  But I hear that the current ASL line has gotten better in this regard.  

Having dealt with them, I also agree that the Manley folks are great and very responsive, while going through Divergent for ASL issues can be a bit trying.  But ultimately they are helpful and do aim to satisfy the customer.  What makes it comparatively difficult is that you are dealing with the importer/dealer, while with Manley, you deal with manufacturer direct.  Also, being in Canada, Divergent is a bit more remote.

But you know what?
I listen to my stereo for the sound quality, not for the impressive build quality.  And better parts quality does not always translate into better sound.

I'm sure others will differ in their approach, but I will always choose something based on sound first.  I will take my chances.  If reliability becomes an issue, I will dump it and move on.  But when considering 2 pieces, I will never choose the one that sounds inferior, just because it is built better, and possibly offers greater reliability.

Of course, this is highly subjective, and others will disagree, but on sound alone, based on my experience with both, I choose ASL.   It  has been more musical than my Manley pieces.  In comparing house sounds in general, I find Manley gear more neutral, drier, and surprisingly SS sounding.  Doesn't offer as much "tube flavor", nor does it posess the "emotional pull" that ASL does.  

ASL is a better fit for me because it better matches my listening priorities. Others with different tastes will choose differently.  In general I would say Manley offers a faster, drier and more neutral sound that emphasizes detail and a more "cerebral" approach to listening.  While ASL seems to stress warmth, involvement and more of a "human" sound.  In a nustshell...the old truth vs. beauty dichotomy.  I gravitate toward the beauty.  Choose your own poison.

For a specific example, I much prefer my ASL SET amp to the Manley SET amp I owned.  
And the Manley costs tons more!

I am not slamming Manley, or shilling ASL.
I really don't care which integrated Paul chooses.
The Stingray may indeed be an impressive piece of gear.
I dunno....never heard it.
I'm just saying don't underestimate ASL.
It doesn't have a presitge label, or the panache of some of its high-end brethren,  but it offers great sound at great prices.

See comments by Nzera on this AG thread:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1107132149&openfrom&1&4#1

"For under half your budget you can get a used Antique Sound Labs AQ1001DT. I have had one for almost 2 years (a record for me). Reliable, sounds great with no mods (but does benefit from good tubes), and drives most speakers easily. I 'upgraded' to the Audiomat Arpege, but still preferred the ASL AQ1001DT, and sold the Arpege. Currently I am finding it preferrable to a Plinius 9200."

Note the 2 integrateds he compares it to.
Both are highly regarded, and the Arpege won a Soundstage Reviewers Choice award.  And both cost multiples more than the 1001.
Also note that he much prefers the KT88 based ASL to the EL34 based Arpege.  So much for el34's superiority...at least in his opinion.

Granted, this is just one man's opinion.
I only point it out because I have come across many posts/opinions/comparisons of a similar nature regarding ASL gear.  It highlights the overachieving nature of ASL gear, and how well it stacks up against some heavy hitters where it really counts.......that is, quality of sound reproduction.

[toobluvr]

toobluvr, our posts crossed...agree with your premise and did not mean to imply that all KT-88s would not suit me. All generalizations are flawed (er, including this one?).

But human nature being what it is, one hesitates to go in again for a design/concept/type of thing that has caused dissatisfaction before (and thus, many miss out on the obviously improved quality of Japanese autos since the '70s).

I would embrace the opportunity to give a well-designed KT-88 amp a try. It is possible that it was just that particular implementation.

Well put!
this is exactly the point I was trying to make...in my clumsy way.
   

[toobluvr]

...

I suppose the safest choice would be to buy a Cary SLI 80 integrated but they are pricey.

Paul

I dunno about that...

When I went to buy my current speakers, the seller was using a pair of Cary monoblocks.  
I don't remember the model, but they were expensive.

The sound was not inspiring....matter of fact, it was pretty bad!
Good thing I had my ASL 845 monos in the car.
Had I not...I would not have bought the speakers.

We hooked them up and they just blew away the Cary.
I mean destroyed them.
Not my opinion alone....other customers that came by that night commented on the good sound.  

And the seller commented that it is the best he had ever heard his speakers sound.  
Matter of fact, he pulled them off the market for awhile while he re-thought the sale.  
He considered keeping them, and getting the ASL amp to team with them.  He enjoyed it that much.

Granted...completely different Cary amps, and different speakers.
So YMMV.
But over the years I have had a little experience with Cary gear...including owning a Cary cd player.  
In my opinion.....overated.  
And overpriced.

[kck]

toobluvr: " I find Manley gear more neutral, drier, and surprisingly SS sounding. Doesn't offer as much "tube flavor", nor does it posess the "emotional pull" that ASL does.

ASL is a better fit for me because it better matches my listening priorities. Others with different tastes will choose differently. In general I would say Manley offers a faster, drier and more neutral sound that emphasizes detail and a more "cerebral" approach to listening. While ASL seems to stress warmth, involvement and more of a "human" sound. In a nustshell...the old truth vs. beauty dichotomy. I gravitate toward the beauty. Choose your own poison. "

My take on the Stingray wrt to above:
Neutral: yes, perhaps more so (but see below)
Drier: in comparison, possibly (not having heard the 1001, I say possibly). Dry, as an absolute, definitely not.
tube flavor: yes, it IS relatively low in that quotient. Which is NOT to say it doesn't exist. But I DO hear the tube flavor. (Just like a fit person, who doesn't appear to be fat, actually does have some bodyfat, helping to render his/her physical appearance pleasing when compared to an emaciated or an obese person.*). In gear, this is a deliberate design choice IMHO. FWIW, I have heard tubes that sound emotional, tubey, wet, all those "human" charateristics, and while that stuff did draw me in initially, I did tire of it in a while. Maybe, as you state, Manley provides a more cerebral sound, and that is what I happen to like. At this time.

Truth v beauty... ah, the slippery slope emerges. I don't know if I have the energy to go there. But this centers around something I realized after a year or two into this audio hobby, that there is no Absolute Sound (with not-so-apologies to HP), but just the designer's version of the sound. Neutrality? A big bloody myth. Sure, some designs approach it better, some deliberately stray, some just ignore it altogether. I have given up on trying to find it and even if it did exist, I maybe wouldn't like it. It is like beauty, like auto design, like sweet v spicy (would you like neutral-tasting food?). Eye of the beholder and all that.

Vive la difference, as I like to say.

* In fact, this is such a great analogy to the Manley sound that I must stress it. It reminds me of a very fit person, with developed and capable but not obscene muscles, along with just a little bit of fat in the right places (this is an androgynous statement btw. Although firmly straight, I enjoy the fact that there are pleasing male as well as female physiques.)

[PaulFolbrecht]

Well - I run AES (Cary) Six Pacs in my main system and I flat-out love them.  I audioned several other sets of tube monos including PrimaLuna and Shanling.  I luv the Cary triode sound.

I assume your ASL 845 are SET??  Were the Cary's you were comparing again the same topology?  Maybe the style of sound in general just doesn't suit you - as opposed to it being executed poorly.  I'm speculating, yes, but you didn't give much information.

[toobluvr]

Well - I run AES (Cary) Six Pacs in my main system and I flat-out love them.  I audioned several other sets of tube monos including PrimaLuna and Shanling.  I luv the Cary triode sound.

I assume your ASL 845 are SET??  Were the Cary's you were comparing again the same topology?  Maybe the style of sound in general just doesn't suit you - as opposed to it being executed poorly.  I'm speculating, yes, but you didn't give much information.

Yes.....my ASL use the 845 output tube, and are SET class A.
And yes, with the right speaker, I do tend to favor this sound.
But this is not to say that I cannot enjoy other topologies.
I currently own Dodd 120 monos.
These are killer amps and I enjoy them very much....and they are not SET.

I don't remember the exact Cary model.
They were monoblocks, and used the 300B output tube.
I've owned 300B amps and usually like them very much.

Can't recall if they had 1 or 2 output tubes.
If not SET, they were probably some sort of PP triode.
It didnot sound like the Cary's were unable to drive the speakers.
They just sounded, well.....bad.  
Dirty and rough and unrefined.

Nothing personal against Cary.
I know of their reputation for musicality, and that many people like them.
I prize musicality and a "human" sound first and foremost.  Therefore, based on their rep, I have tried them a few times in the past, and wanted to like them.  But I've always been disappointed.  So based on my experience with Cary, I have formed the opinion that there is better out there at the price, and even cheaper.

Probably just a matter of personal taste.
Or maybe I didnot sample the stellar performers in the lineup.
Who knows.

[Thebiker]

I have had the Manley Stingray for a little over 2 years and it is used for several hours every day.  I did request a couple of options from Evanna prior to my purchase.  The unit that I demo'd at home came with the notched volume control - I hated it and had a smooth control installed from the factory.  I also opted for the UL/Triode switch and sub-outs (which I never use, but rather have & not need than want....).

Build quality is great, the unit is quiet and it doesn't kick out too much heat.  I generally run it in triode unless I'm up for some serious rock and it will rock.  In triode jazz, chamber and female vocals are stunning.  
k.d. lang sounds as if she is in the room.  The Stingray gives you more than you would expect for the money spent.

[PaulFolbrecht]

Well, guys, I bought a Cayin A88.  Got a really, really good deal on a brand-new one (I rarely buy new).

I'm wondering if I should listen before retubing it or just order the tubes.  I think, for 6-series input tubes, the NOS RCA and WE really shine.  Thoughts??

As to Cary gear - I dunno.  You're the first guy I've heard from who really really doesn't care for it.  My Six Pacs continue to amaze me on a regular basis.

Paul

[toobluvr]

As to Cary gear - I dunno.  You're the first guy I've heard from who really really doesn't care for it.  My Six Pacs continue to amaze me on a regular basis.

Paul

You haven't heard from the half dozen or so audio guys who heard my Cary cdp.    
They all thought it dry and unmusical.  

My only Cary experience is with this piece, and the 300B amp I mentioned earlier.  
So that's all I can fairly comment on.  Both were disappointing.

I've encountered plenty of guys who don't like Cary, and think it over-rated.

It's great that you get good enjoyment from your Six-Pacs.
That's all that matters.        

[tanchiro58]

I just got the 2A3 parallel integrated. This is a special product using only top components (not chinese one). It is built with a US vintage power transformer and a custom built two Double C-core 0.05mm output transformers. Using also two 5R4 rectifier tubes (I use U52s which are the best). The two parallel 2A3 tubes are driven by one WE 417A for each channel. All other components are Black Gate, Jensen and Nichicon capacitors and Kiwami resistors. The sound is revealing, musical and detailed especially the low bass is astounding, deep and very defined. I will post the pictures or send to your email. It is made in Japan.