Would you please recommend best interconnect?

Steve · « **Reply #60 on:** 24 Apr 2006, 01:00 am »

A square wave generator out to 300khz will show any abnormalities out to 6 mhz, the scope much higher than that of course. Any bumps, ringing would be easier to identify with a square wave than using a sinewave.

Well, the preamp does not have any bumps etc, just perfectly smooth as the freqnecy response rolls off, using a sine wave or square wave. The spike is one that EVERY single preamp will show on a scope, unless it has infinite frequency response, which I don't think any has.

In order to show a spike with the amplitude of the square wave source, the feedback would have to be 100%, so no voltage gain.

A preamp would have to be pretty pathetic to show this behaviour.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #61 on:** 24 Apr 2006, 01:28 am »

Since Bybee's have been brought up in this discussion, I'll post a review link about them from Positive Feedback.....review link......

bhobba · « **Reply #62 on:** 24 Apr 2006, 05:12 am »

Quote from: lonewolfny42

Since Bybee's have been brought up in this discussion, I'll post a review link about them from Positive Feedback.....review link......

Hi Chris.

Good link. The only thing I want to add is the cost of trying them may not be $400.00 - closer to $300 or maybe less if you look around for a cheaper source of the Bybees eg from parts connection
http://www.partsconnexion.com/catalog/accessories.html
Bybees $144.95
4 Eichmann Bullet RCA Plugs $26.99
Some Cat 6 cable or if you want to get fancy a bit of the expensive stuff like CONNEX 66070 pure silver cable - max $20.00

All up - Max $192.00 plus some money for a local technician to put it together for you if you can't do it yourself.

Thanks
Bill

_scotty_ · « **Reply #63 on:** 24 Apr 2006, 05:55 am »

Another data point, FWIW, the distortion and bandwidth of the buffer I am currently using to match the impedance between my sources and my power amp and control the volume is unaffected by a 1 meter piece of cable.
Another explanation is warranted.
Scotty

Steve · « **Reply #64 on:** 24 Apr 2006, 12:26 pm »

I prefer a good square wave generator. At 300khz, the effects can be seen out to 3-6 mhz range and beyond; spikes, humps, ringing, and any other weird formations. (A sinewave is much poorer in this regard.)
The scope, itself, will see well beyond that; if any extraneous artifacts are being introduced. If clean, good.

All preamps will show a spike if a comparison is made between the source and load, unless one has infinite frequency response, which I haven't seen.

I hope you mean "ones" equipment, not "your" equipment, meaning mine, since mine is perfectly clean.

Quote from: avahifi

My generator goes out to three meg, and it is very interesting to sweep equipment from the one to three meg range and see all the lumps and bumps in the responses show up on some equipment.

Our suggestion that any underdamped resonances at any frequency from your equipment is bad bad bad. How they actually reflect back into the audio range that you hear is something not clearly understood by us, other than that the musicality is definately improved when you get rid of them by careful design work at all frequencies, not just at audio frequencies.

Frank Van Alstine

Steve · « **Reply #65 on:** 24 Apr 2006, 12:50 pm »

Yes, capacitance is a bad thing in IC cables. If one gets a chance, try measuring your personal cables, and other brands. One will be surprised what some of the touted ones measure. Higher capacitance cables are enjoyed by many because the highs are surpressed, leading to a more relaxed sound, even with a buffer stage. In otherwards, a tone control for a bright sounding component(s). However, weird things may still be occurring in the component itself, limiting the sonics.

Dielectrics, geometry, terminations, connectors all make a difference.

As far as a resistive load, capacitive load difference, half a mhz with gentle roll off is no problem. In fact, the other Major bottleneck in high frequency response is around the volume control.

We could add yet another buffer stage before/after the volume control, thus raising the HF response even higher; but then one is adding even more distortion in the audio band for the sake of even higher frequency response. (Of course with low Gm tubes this might be necessary just too keep the bandwidth above the audio band as any capacitance would definitely change the sound.)

The topic at hand, I would find as low of capacitance cable if possible. I would even measure it before purchasing.

WEEZ · « **Reply #66 on:** 24 Apr 2006, 01:54 pm »

I wish someone could tell me how much capacitance is too much. For example, some installations might require 2m ic's from pre-amp to amp and some might only require 2ft.

So if one uses 2 meters of 17pf/ft ic's, the result is around 110pf. The application requiring 2ft. might use 50pf/ft ic's and end up with 100pf.

I haven't seen any ic's rated any higher than 50pf/ft.. so if you can keep 'em short, you should be okay, right?

WEEZ

Randy · « **Reply #67 on:** 24 Apr 2006, 08:27 pm »

michaelv - see what a simple question can do when you ask audiophiles? An excellent interconnect that probably would match very well with your Plinius is offered by Bogdan Audio. An extremely neutral ic that will give you a bright (in the best sense of the word) clear sound. Go to Audiogon and you will probably find some of their cables for sale. The gold/silver spirit cables are superb and not all that expensive. You can probably get a pair on an auction for a great price.

Carlman · « **Reply #68 on:** 24 Apr 2006, 08:31 pm »

If anyone has wondered if a moderator had been paying attention to this thread, yes... they have...

I could split this thread into Market Square, Fight Club, and the Lab... or I could leave it as-is which I've done. It's a fun discussion and I think some of the issues from earlier have been put to rest.

Cable discussions are usually fun to watch (note the # of views on this topic)... and this one has clearly provided some entertainment... and hopefully a little education as well.

Thanks to everyone for moving it in a productive direction rather than degrading into a slap-fest.

Randy · « **Reply #69 on:** 24 Apr 2006, 08:34 pm »

michaelv - check the link below. Bogdan gold-silver spirits are on auction and goldy ics are also on auction. The latter are not as costly as the silver spirit. Check his feedback for some short reviews.
I see a discussion of capacitance has come up. These Bogdan ics have about as low a capacitance as is possible. The have ZERO capacitance.

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/auc.pl?cablintr&1146704746

OBF · « **Reply #70 on:** 25 Apr 2006, 06:51 pm »

I agree this has been a very interesting discussion and I just wanted to add a couple comments about Bybees.

A while back (year or two ago?) there was a most interesting discussion/experiment on the Madisound board. John K, a physicist by trade, agreed to measure and listen to the Bybees and Danny from this forum sent him some. John said he tried them connected directly to the drivers, in the crossover, etc....and did not hear any difference. They measured as being electrically inert, which is how they are marketed, so that made sense, but it also explains why he didn't hear anything (and keep in mind John K is on the cutting edge of speaker design so it's not like he can't hear).

Thy physicists on the board thought Bybee's claims were bunk and had little basis in real science. John also made what I considered the most salient statement: that 1/f noise (which the Bybees supposedly filter) can be generated in a lab and measured. It would be fairly simple to generate 1/f, pass it through a filter, and measure the reduction in noise, but Bybee was not at all interested, basically saying that if you can't hear it he doesn't want to waste his time with you. That was about all I needed to hear from a supposed scientist.

kmcdonou4eq5 · « **Reply #71 on:** 25 Apr 2006, 09:20 pm »

I also agree on the Bogdan Gold/Silver ics. I replaced my Chimera Labs ics with these and am very pleased. Great product for the money.

bhobba · « **Reply #72 on:** 25 Apr 2006, 11:23 pm »

Quote from: OBF

A while back (year or two ago?) there was a most interesting discussion/experiment on the Madisound board. John K, a physicist by trade,.

I have read John's posts and agree he knows his physics.

Quote from: OBF

agreed to measure and listen to the Bybees and Danny from this forum sent him some. John said he tried them connected directly to the drivers, in the crossover, etc....and did not hear any difference. They measured as being electrically inert, which is how they are marketed, so that made sense, but it also explains why he didn't hear anything (and keep in mind John K is on the cutting edge of speaker design so it's not like he can't hear).

Oh yes - there are definitely highly reputable people who claim they can hear nothing with them. The interesting thing is there are other highly respected people who claim the exact opposite eg engineering legend John Curl. I do not believe this issue can be settled from the claims of experts since they seem to be split.

Quote from: OBF

The physicists on the board thought Bybee's claims were bunk and had little basis in real science. John also made what I considered the most salient statement: that 1/f noise (which the Bybees supposedly filter) can be generated in a lab and measured. It would be fairly simple to generate 1/f, pass it through a filter, and measure the reduction in noise, but Bybee was not at all interested, basically saying that if you can't hear it he doesn't want to waste his time with you. That was about all I needed to hear from a supposed scientist.

Yes - that is a very valid concern and one I share.

But lets look at the other side of the coin. Danny has clamed when connected to one of his speakers both he and his wife can hear a reduction in noise and pick it blind. If true (and I do have a lot of time for Danny) then there is some validity in their claims. Both Dan Wright and Wayne of Bolder claim to hear it as well - IMHO these people are reliable as well. So what is going on?

I remember reading a post by Danny on the sound of capacitors. Now you will find blind studies that show the sound of Dayton capacitors is exactly the same as the sound of Sonicaps. If I remember correctly, what Danny did is get a group who originally could not hear a difference and by discussion and careful listening they could eventually hear a difference and pick it blind. Of course to be valid this needs to be checked blind - but could the same thing perhaps be happening here? Could we take some people and train them to hear what Danny and others hear and check it blind?

This is what makes it interesting for me build a pair of interconnects and check them out - and why others may also be interested.

Thanks
Bill

Daemon · « **Reply #73 on:** 26 Apr 2006, 12:28 am »

The trouble is bhobba, if you build the interconects and try them out, you'll never be able to trust your self that it's not just psycho-acoustics. Unless you're going the whole hog and will design a fully rigerous experimental proceedure to go with them (hopefully one that doesn't involve talking the subjects into perceiving a difference before running a few more quasi-blind passes).

avahifi · « **Reply #74 on:** 26 Apr 2006, 01:20 am »

I guess I did stir up the works here enough now. Carry on and have fun.

Frank

bhobba · « **Reply #75 on:** 26 Apr 2006, 01:41 am »

Quote from: Daemon

The trouble is bhobba, if you build the interconects and try them out, you'll never be able to trust your self that it's not just psycho-acoustics.).Unless you're going the whole hog and will design a fully rigerous experimental proceedure to go with them (hopefully one that doesn't involve talking the subjects into perceiving a difference before running a few more quasi-blind passes).

No argument - it is purely for my own edificaiton and delight - and that is exactly what I was suggesting others do as well - which is why I posted ways of doing it cheaply - well at least as cheaply as possible anyway. I am also well aware that many properly conducted blind listneing tests fail to distinguish between comptently designed amps as well - and such have not settled the argument about amp sound either.

Bybees however have been hashed/bashed to death many times and nothing will be settled here - so I will make this my second last post about them for the time being - I just want to mention something to Frank and leave it at that.

Thanks
Bill

bhobba · « **Reply #76 on:** 26 Apr 2006, 02:04 am »

Quote from: avahifi

I guess I did stir up the works here enough now. Carry on and have fun.

No problem Frank - your posts were very informative and enjoyable - although I am not sure low capacitance is the most relevant or necessarily best measure of interconnects - low inductance and resistance would seem high up their as well - and indeed some designs trade one for the other.

But regarding Bybees I want to leave you with the words of fellow engineer John Curl:
'Folks, just for fun, let's try to learn about noise. Most of us are familiar with Johnson noise. This is a noise formula, that is derived from quantum mechanical equations, that is easy to apply. Basicially, it states that a 10 ohm resistor will have .4nV/rt Hz noise at room temperature, if it is a PERFECT resistor. I'm sorry that I can't make the last statement even easier to understand by those who have not studied this stuff, but I can't. However, are all 10 ohm resistors perfect? NO! In fact, many cheaper resistors will have lots of EXCESS noise, depending whether there is an AC or DC current flowing through the 10 ohm resistor or not. This noise can completely overwhelm the intrinsic Johnson noise, and is sometimes referred to as 1/f noise. Now this EXCESS noise is always present to some degree, and I suspect that this is the noise that the Bybee device addresses.'

The problem is this should be measurable and checkable - yet such has never been published. The is not a good omen IMHO - but hardly proof they are snake oil.

Thanks
Bill

datman · « **Reply #77 on:** 26 Apr 2006, 02:10 am »

I know I am a little late to the party, but I would like to contribute my 2 cents and recommend the Ah! cables from Upscale Audio. Well made, they sound terrific (the rca's use Eichmann Bullit plugs) and they are priced fairly. More than the Beldens I'm sure, but well worth it.

avahifi · « **Reply #78 on:** 26 Apr 2006, 11:46 am »

I need to chime in on one more thing - - - noise.

I nned to point out that the thermal noise in the quietest components or electronic parts is way way way way way more than in your cables. Hey you can actually hear the noise from your components with your ear against the speaker even in the best cases.

I wonder if buying beebees to get rid of some kind of undefined and unmeasurable noise is not like polishing the rails on the Titanic.

Frank

avahifi · « **Reply #79 on:** 26 Apr 2006, 11:46 am »

I need to chime in on one more thing - - - noise.

I nned to point out that the thermal noise in the quietest components or electronic parts is way way way way way more than in your cables. Hey you can actually hear the noise from your components with your ear against the speaker even in the best cases.

I wonder if buying beebees to get rid of some kind of undefined and unmeasurable noise is not like polishing the rails on the Titanic.

Frank