[John Ryder]

$900 for a single 1 meter RCA cable!!!?? You've to be kidding me...that is NOT what I would consider a good investment at all.  

No wonder you ship everything for free.!.you can afford it...it probably costs $10-20 TOPS to make that cable..$5 to ship it....the rest is TOTAL overblown profit for you.

It's a shame to see people ripping off folks that much and claiming (via splashing marketing mumbo jumbo jargan) that it's the most AMAZING cable in the world...it's just an RCA CABLE for god's sake!

 

[Vtech2000]

As evidenced in your previous posts to date, you seem assume audio businesses are only out to rip off unsuspecting or gullible victims.  It is a matter of fact that we get much of our business from clients who started with one of our products and enjoyed the results so much they returned for other of our products.

I also see, in a previous similar thread that you recommended WalMart cables:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=23771.msg210288#210288&highlight=#210288

..oh well, to each his own, I guess...

$900 for a single 1 meter RCA cable!!!?? You've to be kidding me...that is NOT what I would consider a good investment at all.  

No wonder you ship everything for free.!.you can afford it...it probably costs $10-20 TOPS to make that cable..$5 to ship it....the rest is TOTAL overblown profit for you.

It's a shame to see people ripping off folks that much and claiming (via splashing marketing mumbo jumbo jargan) that it's the most AMAZING cable in the world...it's just an RCA CABLE for god's sake!

 

Actually that's for a 1-meter pair, not a single cable.  

With all due respect, sir, the price of the employed raw materials alone is substantially higher that the retail price of virtually all of the interconnects mentioned above.  As we sell direct to the end user, there are none of the mark-ups associated with a wholesale/retail sales model - a further savings to the customer.

I understand some people may not have a system that would necessitate true high quality cables.  I also understand by no amount of discourse, or even the testimonial of others, can one convince another of the benefits a good cable design brings to the reproduction of music - this must be scientifically experienced first hand.

[John Ryder]

No matter what way you want to paint it...it's a completely overpriced rip-off. Be it a single wire or pair.

It's a shame others fall prey to products like this, thinking they are getting the "BEST" when all they are getting is a cable worth a FRACTION of the inflated selling price.

Spin it all you want..it's a 100% sham....heck you have to keep your business afloat so I don't blame you for trying to make this product look like it's a world class product worth every penny you sell it for.

[Vtech2000]

No matter what way you want to paint it...it's a completely overpriced rip-off. Be it a single wire or pair.

It's a shame others fall prey to products like this, thinking they are getting the "BEST" when all they are getting is a cable worth a FRACTION of the inflated selling price.

Spin it all you want..it's a 100% sham....heck you have to keep your business afloat so I don't blame you for trying to make this product look like it's a world class product worth every penny you sell it for.

I must say that slanderous remarks are inappropriate and should be avoided.  I can assure there is no "sham" here whatsoever.  Anyone who would take the time to familiarize themselves with the details of our designs would appreciate how labor intensive RAL designs are to fabricate.  The components and build quality are commensurate to the prices - RAL cables are comparable to the finest available.

I only hope the best for you.  Happy listening!

[tvad4]

I have owned Revelation Audio products, and I can attest to their excellence.

My post is unsolicited by RAL.

There are two distinct camps in the audio world when it comes to the issue of wire. One camp hears the benefits that upmarket cables can provide, and the other camp is steadfastly opposed to the benefits.

So be it. I've been reading these threads long enough to know one side will never convince the other.

However, I was one who started with SignalCable, and as my system components improved, I also improved the wire. I hear the differences esoteric wire provides. Others whom I know who were also skeptical are now adamant supporters and users of high quality cabling.

There's plenty of room for both points of view, articulately expressed without animosity.

I would encourage those whose curiosity has been peaked to try RAL, or any other high quality cable. Be certain to buy cabling with a MBG, or buy it used. Also, be certain the rest of your system is of a quality to support upgraded wire. Otherwise, I can assure you that you won't hear the difference you expect to hear.

Finally, value is perceived differently by each individual. Try to accept the fact that others may not perceive things the same as you.

[mcrespo71]

No matter what way you want to paint it...it's a completely overpriced rip-off. Be it a single wire or pair.

It's a shame others fall prey to products like this, thinking they are getting the "BEST" when all they are getting is a cable worth a FRACTION of the inflated selling price.

Spin it all you want..it's a 100% sham....heck you have to keep your business afloat so I don't blame you for trying to make this product look like it's a world class product worth every penny you sell it for.

Chill out.

[nathanm]

Unfortunately for the rest of you guys I own the best interconnects ever.  And none of you suckers can even LOOK at them.  I keep them in a secret underground container safe from those who would try to reverse engineer them.  The sad part is that unless you have these interconnects, whatever you are using now sucks.  I mean, you might as well sell all your CDs and take up a new hobby because what you all have is essentially worthless.  But don't worry, what you don't know can't hurt you.

[TomW16]

Mmmm, interesting, Tom ... I presume you are either tongue-in-cheek or are talking about digital ICs?  Apart from the IC between tone-arm and phono stage needing to be of a sufficient length (with an MM cartridge) to impart the appropriate capacitance, I've never heard anyone before say analogue ICs need to be of a certain length to do a good job?

Can you explain more?

Hi Andy,

Yes, my post was toungue in cheek.  If the interconnects are too short, they won't connect the components resulting in no music  

My limited understanding is that it is the components' impedance that makes the major difference regarding whether an interconnect will make an audible difference or not.  If you components' impendences are matched well (watch out for tube components and passive preamps), simply use any reasonable low capacitance interconnects that are shielded to protect from EMI contamination.

When it comes time time to finish (actually start) my dedicated listening/home theater room, I will order my cables from Blue Jeans cable.  They have very sound engineering principals in my opinion.

Tom

[andyr]

Hi Andy,

My limited understanding is that it is the components' impedance that makes the major difference regarding whether an interconnect will make an audible difference or not. If you components' impendences are matched well (watch out for tube components and passive preamps), simply use any reasonable low capacitance interconnects that are shielded to protect from EMI contamination.
 ...

Hi Tom,

Mmmm, your "understanding" differs from mine!!  

Irrespective of the wire connecting the two components (shall we say preamp to power amp, just for argument's sake?), you should have the inoput impedance of the destination at least 10 times the output impedance of the source.  At least 50 times is better.

If you obey this elementary precaution then, for a "normal" line-level IC (ie. let's leave out the cable from arm to head amp/phono stage, as these carrry extremely low level signals) R is irrelevant.  (EG. at one stage - and maybe still - VdH made a carbon IC which had a relatively high R compared to metal wire cable.)

Likewise L is irrelevant because of the neglegible current flowing through an IC.  The only factor which is important is C - which should be as low as possible.  Whether you choose to have them shielded or not is a matter of the design of your equipment (eg. my power amps are sensitive to RFI, so all my ICs are shielded) and the level of RFI in your neighbourhood.  I would suggest a non-shielded IC will always sound better than the same IC, shielded ... provided your equipment is insensitive to RFI and/or you live in an location which has low levels of RFI.

Regards,

Andy

[bhobba]

bThe following is the best article I have ever read on audio cables:
http://www.videohifi.com/16_RISCH_ENG.htm

Interview with Jon Risch of Cables Asylum

Tell more about you and about your entry in cables "game"….

I am formally trained as an engineer, and like many of my brethren, I accepted the wisdom of the day, that cables were just wire, and wire is wire. I too, was skeptical about audio cables, and when I was assigned to research a US supplier for the raw cable to be used in American-built Gold-Ens interconnects (by Discwasher), I threw myself into my work with a passion, doing what I always do, and finding out as much about the subject as I can to prepare myself for the project work. After researching the optimal materials (based on the technological wisdom of the day), and weighing the costs, I obtained a large number of samples of commercially available cables from Belden, and began comparative listening tests of my own. Once I was actually doing this, I noticed that the el cheapo cables that came with the gear did not sound as good as some of the Belden samples, much less that I could actually hear something different between them. I reported to my supervisor that I had found at least one cable sample that seemed to sound much better than the others, and was even better than the then currently Japanese sourced Gold-Ens. He was also incredulous, and did not quite believe me. So a formal listening test was scheduled to test between the existing cables, and the new sample I preferred, and I was placed under blind conditions (double-blind equivalent). A variation on the original ABX procedure was used, with hand swapping of the cables, instead of a switch box. Much to the amazement of my supervisor and fellow engineers, on the first set of ten trials, I scored 8 out of 10 (still warming up), then 9 out of 10, then 8 out of 10 again. I could tell I was getting fatigued on the last run, and said so. Taken as a whole, the three trials together, for 25 out of 30, approaches near certainty. This was the beginning of my long journey with audio cables, and the why and wherefore. Since 1980, I have been conducting controlled listening tests on audio components, most of which were for audio cables. After literally hundreds of cable listening tests under controlled conditions, I have no doubt personally that cables can be detected and some sound better than others. I know this, and no one can take this away from me, there were too many tests with overwhelming positives, too much rigorous science involved. After conducting many tests, and finding out early on that they were not always so easy to get results from, I found that there were weak spots in the original ABX procedures, and with many of the amateur DBT's that had been, and were being run (mostly by cable naysayers). I wrote and presented an AES paper in 1991, AES preprint #3178, outlining some of the issues connected with listening tests, and based on my own experiences with having conducted so many listening tests.

I have personally maintained that the sonic differences between audio cables is of a subtle nature, and not of the "day-and-night" type of difference. However, when we are dealing with one’s personal home playback system, where the listener has become intimately familiar with it’s performance and overall sound, when something does change in such a system, they are going to notice it much more readily than a stranger would, or than someone participating in a blind test at an institute would. In the context of that persons playback system, a cable change might bring about a "night-and-day" difference, because it has pushed the performance of the system past the edge of disbelief of the playback event. If a new set of cables can allow the music to float free of the speakers, and achieve a sense of separate soundstage, while the old cables did not do this, the sound was "stuck" to the speaker locations, then to the owner/listener of that system, that is a "night-and-day" difference, even though in absolute terms, the sonic differences were small.

Bottom line - audible differences exist between cables - but that are very very subtle.  Get all your other pieces just how you like them before investing in upmarket cables.  And if you are tempted to invest $3000.00 or more in cable I suggest listening to SP Timepieces and see if spending it on them would not be wiser.

Thanks
Bill

[bhobba]

Oh and I forgot to mention - my favorite cable is simple interconnects with bybees at either end.  I know bybees sound like a con but many people who I respect have ABXed them and can attest they do make a difference - a bigger difference than the actual cable.  Fortunately they are not that expensive in raw form:
http://www.bybeeconnection.com/DIYProducts.asp

Simply purchase them and get a technician to make the cable for you.

If worried do a simple blind ABX test on one cable - you won't risk much.  That's what I indend to do when it comes time for me to look at cables.

Thanks
Bill

[avahifi]

Does anyone ever just do a simple test of your pet interconnects or speaker wires?  Connect them to your driving component and a reasonable dummy load, drive the source with high frequency square waves and see how bad the output looks at the load with a scope. You can connect one probe to the source input and the other probe to the load, match levels, and then add and invert the signals and see the difference signal (any is wrong).

You are gonna have   expressions when you see how bad many exotic cables are  - - -  especially when you see what you have been paying for is simply lots of distortion.

Yah, not anywhere as mcuh fun as just expressing your opinions, but then knowledge is never admired as much as beliefs.

Frank Van Alstine

[budyog]

REL wrote

But this is not so at Revelation Audio Labs! Each and every one of RAL cables is passionately handcrafted by caring, dedicated artisans,

I have never met a cable "artisan" before. Are they from this country? Where do they come from? Do you have to have a green card to be one? It looks like they get paid very, very well. Can I be one? Do they get a company discount on cables? Please hire me, I am sure I could be one!  

[JLM]

I bought Element Cables and like them just fine, but I'm not a "cable guy".

I've heard the differences between $1,000 speaker cables, but would invest in better room treatments or speakers long before putting it into wires.

[john1970]

I use Blue Jeans Cable throughout my system and am very pleased with the performance.  The cables are double sheiled and use Canare RCA plugs.  Generally cost ~$20-30 per a set.

[tvad4]

You are gonna have   expressions when you see how bad many exotic cables are  - - -  especially when you see what you have been paying for is simply lots of distortion.

What you say is true. However, minimum distortion does not necessarily correlate to good sound.

I guarantee a $200 Technics AV receiver will have significantly lower distortion specs than my tube amplifier, but my tube amplifier sounds significantly better.

Daniel von Recklinghausen said, "If it measures good and sounds bad, it is bad. If it measures bad and sounds good, you've measured the wrong things." (From the VAC owner's manual)

One could assemble an uber low distortion system based solely on specs and scope readings, but I'll wager it'd sound like shite.

[guest1632]

Since everyone is throwing in his or her own opinion (obviously), and since mine's as good as anyone else's...

...To quote Lloyd Walker:

"Anybody can give you 90-95% of the music, but that elusive 5-10%...that's where the magic is..."

It is a fact that cables are as crucial to the great sonic performance of a system as any other component in the audio signal, or power, chain.  There are many overpriced cable brands, i.e. low performance per dollar, but careful consideration sho ...

Hi Brad,

I read your section in how you produce your cables. It is interesting that both you and Pair Cables go basically down the same general path. You both obviously do things differently, but have the same philosophy. Of course his cables for a 1 meter pair are $1250, using only Gold wire of 36 gauge. What gauge of wire do you use?

Ray

[melville]

Here are my cable recommendations:
 
Purist Audio Venustas
Ridge Street Audio Poiema/ Poiema Signature
Cardas Golden Cross
Cardas Golden Reference
Acoustic Zen Satori
Analysis Plus Oval 8
George Speltz Anti-Cable
Signal Cable

I was most impressed by the Venustas sonically.  The Positive Feedback reviewer claimed that it "transformed" the sound of his system.  I had a similar experience.  However, the speaker cable is very heavy and has massive spade connectors; so they require very good binding posts.  The high-grade WBT posts on my W-5 could not hold them securely without a certain amount of 'jerry-rigging'.  The ICs are also heavy, but have excellent connectors.  

I currently have all RAS Poiema and Poiema Signature ICs and intend to keep them.  

Cardas Golden Cross ICs are very good, but do add warmth to the sound, so you have to want this additive effect.

I was not impressed with Cardas Golden Reference, much preferring the RAS.  

Acoustic Zen Satori, particularly at its' price point, is quite special.  

Analysis Plus Oval 8 is good, but not as good as the AZ.

The Speltz cable is simply amazing.  And I am not just saying this because it is 'dirt' cheap.  It provides gobs of detail, a wide and deep soundstage, neutrality and natural tonality (with a hint of brightness on some material).  Using it is like hooking up your equipment with coat-hanger wire, but it sounds very good.

I found Signal Cable Silver Revelation competent, but no big deal.  

I only offer this as my experience with these cables in my system.  I do not possess Golden Ears, but have been in the hobby for about 35 years.  I have used the speaker cable, and at least one IC, from each of these manufacturers.  And, of course, since considerable time lapsed between my experience of some of them, I am relying on imperfect sonic memory.

In summary, I was most impressed with the Venustas, which is very expensive (at least by my standards), and most surprised by the AZ and Speltz cables.  As I stated, I currently use RAS ICs and, because I recently acquired Merlin Audio VSM speakers, Cardas Golden Cross speaker cable (highly-recommended by the manufacturer, and a good choice for this speaker).  

System:
Moon Audio W-5
Space-Tech QA-807/Bent Audio NOH
Camelot Lancelot Pro
Sonic Frontiers SFCD-1 (full Pcx mods)
Pioneer Elite 47Ai (Modwright mods)
Nottingham Analog Spacedeck/Dynavector Karat
Merlin Audio VSM SE/SuperBAM

[arthurs]

One more time....Gregg Straley's Reality Cables....real world pricing and astounding performance...sold off my AZ Hologram after hearing his SC's in my system for a few days...remarkable, and an easy guy to work with to boot!

[_scotty_]

Another vote for Reality Cables.
Scotty