[ka7niq]

I have a large room, and every speaker that I have recently owned, including B&W 801's, have a hard time making enough bass w/o subwoofers.
I just got my TRT Spiral 40's, and the levels were set by the previous owner a little below factory setting.
I listened to them like this deliberately to roll tubes, and listen for a tube w/o midrange glare.
The EI tubes in both the pre amp and Moscode 600 had to go!
I went back to my Mullard 12at7's in the preamp, and a Sylvania black plate 6fq7 in the Moscode 600.
Boy, are the 40's ever revealing!
The combo of the Mullards and Sylvania's imparted the tubey, romantic sound I seek.
I then started backing the midrange/tweeters down, and wound up under 12 o'clock.
The los of efficiency is not a problem, as the Moscode 600 drives these wonderfully.
I haven't tried it on speech  because I have not hooked them up to the Widescreen yet.
Has anyone had to run their 40's this low ?

[Brian Cheney]

Set the mids at 12 o'clock, treble at 12:30, and remove putty a fingernail full at a time, one PR at a time, and it should balance out nicely.

[ka7niq]

Thanks Brian!

[Corbin Johnson]

ka79iq,

Start with Brian's advice, but don't be afraid to go below 12:00 if it sounds right.  I use tubes in my preamp that impart a warm sound and I have my mids set about 11:00 and the FST tweeter even lower around 10:30, however I recall I read that the spiral tweeters are a little less efficient than the FST, so they may need to be set higher than the mids as Brian recommends, to balance.  

Brian and his wife Shirley heard my system and both said it sounded great.  Shirley even thought the tweeters could be turned down further.  I should mention that I sit fairly close to my speakers (+/- 9 ft.).  I also visited a guy in DC (beboplive) that had RM30's and he had his FST's set about 9:30, well belows his mids which were set around 12:00.  I liked his sound so that was the first time I started experimenting with turning the tweeter level below the mids, counter to Brian's standard recommendation.  I liked it and have kept it like this for about two years.  

The tunability is one of the great benefits of the VMPS speakers.  You can try different settings and if you don't like it, it just takes a few adjustments to change.  After a while you will get used to the difference a small turn with the screw driver can make.  I find I have to come back a few hours after making adjustments to see if I really like what I did.  The putty is the trickiest and again I have gone against the typical recommendation by removing almost all the putty for the sound I like.  I'll put my ear inches away from the woofers going as far as I can removing putty until I start hearing flabby sounding bass or latent vibration after a bass note ends, then check it sitting in the sweet spot.  Since I've recently started bi-amping, using my 300 wpc Cinenova just for the woofers, I just added half of the putty back.  Last night I was thinking I could even tune the putty visually, watching the woofer with a bright light to make sure it doesn't vibrate after a tight bass note decays away.   I still have to test this further to "see" there is anything to it, but my point is that you will become very attuned to your speakers in time if you keep experimenting.

These are just some of the things I've found that work for me after three years of tuning and retuning.  I should also mention that when I first started tuning my RM40's I couldn't tell any difference unless I was making major changes because the speakers always sound good.  I've found in time that most tuning changes are very subtle and take time to appreciate.  But they are the differences between really great sounding music and the sensational experience of being a part of the music where my wife has to pull me away from the stereo.

Have fun,  

Corbin

[warnerwh]

Do you know if you have all of the putty that the speakers were shipped with? I'd definitely try the pots where Brian recommended and remove some putty til the bass gets a little boomy and fuzzy. This will also affect the midrange clarity too.  

This all assumes you've spent time with room position. This is the most important tweak and takes time to do.  Even 1/2" can make a significant difference whether it be the distance from side/rear walls or the angle they're aimed.  Crossfiring them about 2' in front of you is a great place to start. No matter how I've positioned my speakers the balance is consistently best with approximately the above angle. This will leave the outside panel of the speakers very visible showing a couple inches from the seating position.

The most important thing is to enjoy them. I saw those on Agon and know you got a great speaker at a super price. Nothing can touch those for that kind of money. When the CDWG's are ready that would be the only thing worth upgrading too.  Enjoy your new speakers!

[ka7niq]

Thanks for all the great advice!
Yes, these came on AudioGon, and I could say no, being local and all.
NO FREIGHT, Yeah, my kind of deal!
They are almost immaculate too, and I made another audio buddy in the buying process.
I should have owned these long ago.
These are not just good speakers, they are great speakers, better then my  801's, Magnepan MG3A's, and yes, better then my Von Schweikerts too.
To my ears, in my home, they even sound better then the big Sound labs that the guy who owned these previously replaced them with.
And, they play loud too, and sound good doing it.

We watched "Devils Advocate" and the 40's accurately convey the reverberation of the Mens rest room at the start of the movie, and the flushing of the Urinal.
Keanu Reeves voice in the courtroom during the cross examination scene sounded great.
It sounded so good that I got sucked into watching the whole movie, though I was only "testing".

I by no means have them optimized yet, and I am kinda confused as to the easiest way to tune the passive ?
What do you listen for, midrange or amount of Bass ?
I know to just do one at a time, but do you place your ear to woofer, or go back to your seat and listen.
And, are we listening for midrange effects here, or bass impact ?
Does anyone have a favorite CD that will quickly tell when you have this right, like a guys voice or something ?

As for having all the Putty, I dont know ?
The guy said he had em 'tuned" and asked what I wanted to do with the extra putty.
Before I could think about it, he reached under one and stuck it on the cone so we would use it.
He really smashed the original putty amount he used into the center of the cone, and I am afraid to try and remove it for fear of puncturing the cone.
But, from looking at my friends 40's, it appears to be all there.
I know he didnt add, or throw any away.

Corbin, my name is Chris BTW.
Ka7NIQ is my Ham Radio callsign.
I am in Brandon, just east of Tampa.

[Corbin Johnson]

Chris,

I start with all the putty in place and listen for the mids & highs to open up as I remove it.  I keep going until the bass gets a little fuzzy, which also changes the clarity of the mids and highs, then I put a little back.

Some of my favorite tracks are live jazz such as Diana Krall, “Live in Paris” or Patricia Barber, “A Fortnight in Paris”.  I like live female jazz with acoustic bass because when everything’s right, it sounds just like you’re sitting in the front row of the concert.  Female voices seem better to define the highs and I love the way a well recorded acoustic bass resonates.  Some of my favorites for checking if the bass is too fuzzy are Steve Ray Vaughn, “Tin Pan Alley” on Couldn’t Stand the Weather and Boz Scaggs' CD "Come on Home”.   Often I’ll think I have them tuned just right after tuning listening to music with acoustic bass, but then come back an hour later and put on something with deep electric bass and the bass doesn’t sound as tight, so I add a little more putty.

Use music you’re familiar with and know is recorded well.  If you’re tuning with a poorly recorded or even average recording you don’t know, you may hear negative things that you think are the speakers but are actually in the recording.  I know I said I put my ear to the woofer to hear for fuzzyness, but the true test is sitting in your sweet spot.

I also agree with warnerwh that speaker placement plays a critical role.  I move them around a little after I have them tuned.  I usually don’t have to retune during this exercise.  I try moving them forward a few inches for sharper imaging or back for deeper bass until I find the balance I like.   I have mine crossed about the same as warnerwh describes, because I can see about an inch of the outside edge of each speaker.  Understand that all this tuning is very subtle, but you’ll get to know it in time by experimenting.    

Corbin

[woodsyi]

Chris,

I am on the other extreme on the pots.  I have my mid pot all the way up (5 O'clock).  I have the tweets at about 2:30 after removing the FST guide/grill.  This of course is with CDWG.  Even before I put in the CDWG I had the tweeter pot all the way up and mid pot around 3:30.  This I think is another benefit of biamping.  I believe I hear the best sound when the pots are as out  of the way as possible.  The gain and sensitivity of the amps will dictate the pot positions but I like the way mine balances out with the midpot all the up.  The less resistance the better is my thinking.  

[Brian Cheney]

I use the PR as a clarity control.  There will be one amount of putty which gives maximum overall transparency. If you're not sure how much to start with, take all the old putty off and apply about 6" from a reel of Mortite or similar caulking rope putty and glue it to the apex of the PR with hotmelt.  Then start removing.  I usually end up taking off an amount the size of a small green pea.

If you PR's are not vitrified with Elmer's carpenter's glue (the yellow stuff), take them out and paint both sides of the cone, then allow to cure overnite.  Good improvement.

Glad you like the 40's and hope you tell the world all about them.

[John Casler]

Brian makes a salient point, and that is;

There is only "one" right setting for your speakers to be their most accurate.

Clarity Control, is exactly what the PR adjustment is.

Too many (in the past) have thought that it deepened the bass, or added dynamics, made up for bad placement, eliminated roome modes, as well as many other qualities.

It does not.

In plain English: It simply reduces the distortion of the bass system.

All bass has distortion.  A fixed bass system has a lot.

This distortion has to do with many elements of the electric signal causing the woofers and radiators to start and stop "exactly" as the signal tells them to.

The heavy woofers have mass and inertia/momentum.  Positive and Negative Accelerations need to be accurate to get the detail and resolution that "IS" available in bass.

The motor and suspension elements of Bass drivers have a role, but also relevant is the "mass" of the system.

Why does it need to be variable?

Several reasons, but the most significant is that not everyone uses the same amps and wiring to their speakers.

This means the electrical signal is slightly different.  Damping Ratios are different.  Current is different.  Watts and distortions are different.

Some use tubes.  Some use Solid State.  

The bass response is different.

The idea, is to "blend" your speaker drivers to acheive the most accurate, coherent and "clear" sound from all three drive elements.

Bass, Mids, and Highs need to all acheive the quality of integrated clarity.

So find your "reference cuts"

I like:

Flight of the Cosmic Hippo - Bela Fleck
Tin Pan Alley - SRV (like Corbin suggested)
Dat Dere - Ricky Lee Jones
and a couple others

But, the thing you're looking for is Bass detail, and 3-D depth.  That is a palpable quality of texture in the bass that adds a spaitial and highly detailed reality, over the "fuzzy" tranlucence of most bass performance.

Now be aware.  This sonic detail is not recorded on "every" recording.  If you have it on Cosmic Hippo, and not on something else, it is because the "recording" is lacking.

Be carefull not to go off on a "tuning" goose chase/challenge that will move you away from accuracy.

A properly tuned, VMPS bass system has the lowest distortion of "ANY" commercially available speaker system, simply because it can be tuned to reduce distortion, and others cannot.

[ka7niq]

I use the PR as a clarity control.  There will be one amount of putty which gives maximum overall transparency. If you're not sure how much to start with, take all the old putty off and apply about 6" from a reel of Mortite or similar caulking rope putty and glue it to the apex of the PR with hot melt.  Then start removing.  I usually end up taking off an amount the size of a small green pea.

If you Pr's are not vitrified with Elmer's carpenter's glue (the yellow stuff), take them out and paint both sides ...

LIKE THEM ??
I LOVE Them Brian!
I know I dont have them "right" yet, totally, but even "wrong" they eat anything I have owned previously.
I put the levels where you said, at 12  o'clock midrange, and 12.30 tweeters.
Mike is going to come over, and add putty while I listen, one at a time.
I removed some putty, and have them pretty close.
Final tuning will have to wait for Mike.
The hardest thing about tuning these is that they sound so good, I just want to listen instead of tune, LOL
How easy is it to remove the passive ?
Would the glue increase mass a bit ?
Is the idea to harden the cone so midrange wont get out the bottom slot ?

[Brian Cheney]

To remove the passive unscrew the base and then the woodscrews holding the PR in.  Pop it loose with a flatblade.

To compensate for the mass of the dried glue remove a fingernail full of putty from the center of the PR.

[ka7niq]

To remove the passive unscrew the base and then the wood screws holding the PR in.  Pop it loose with a flat blade.

To compensate for the mass of the dried glue remove a fingernail full of putty from the center of the PR.

Thanks Brian!
I shall do so in the near future.
I need to call you to get some bases for these.
My pair are black lacquer
These are staying, and staying for a long time.
I finally found Love, after all these years.

Even if you hadn't "asked" me to tell the world about them, I would have.
Most people have no idea just how good these really are.
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/MUG/messages/96510.html

Tell Jim hi from me.
We have a medical condition in common, and I was taking too good of care of myself until Jim enlightened me of the dangers of not having a Biopsy.
I was scared to have it done.
But Jim gave me the courage to do it, so tell him thanks, ok ?
Chris

[ka7niq]

Set the mids at 12 o'clock, treble at 12:30, and remove putty a fingernail full at a time, one PR at a time, and it should balance out nicely.

I just did this Brian, one at a time.
It took me about a half hour a speaker.
I used Fleetwood Mac's Rhiannon, it worked for me.
It has prominent bass that changes notes, and if you oveerdamp the passive, Stevie Nicks voice no longer has that growl, and the bacground vocals lose body.

I did it one at a time, and got each to sound as best i could.
I dont have a balance control, so I simply unplugged one wire at a time from my DAC.

When I sat down, satisfied I did my best, was I ever in for a treat!
I now have the romantic sound I crave and everything is "more better" including the imaging.

I just wanted to share this, and now I have a Pizza coming, and I shall feed my face and listen some more.