External tweaks for Nuforce

ticofan · « **on:** 9 Mar 2006, 04:54 pm »

I found that the NuForce 8.02 is extraordinarily sensitive to microvibration and noise-reducing external tweaks, and evaluated a number of techniques. I new page for this has been added to the "tweaks" section of my website at www.magnan.com/pages/tweaks/nuforce.html. Any comments?

srb · « **Reply #1 on:** 9 Mar 2006, 05:13 pm »

Just wanted to mention for those who don't get the page by clicking on the link, that the link contains a period at the end which results in "The page cannot be found".

Backspace off the period at the the URL in the address bar, and voila!

Levi · « **Reply #2 on:** 9 Mar 2006, 05:30 pm »

You can also get the Audience Adept response. It is proven to work well in one of our NY Audio Raves (March mini-rave).

It is a $2500 upgrade though.

Adamay · « **Reply #3 on:** 9 Mar 2006, 06:35 pm »

Wow, thanks a million to Magnan. The proverbial light bulb went off over my head when I read their list of tweaks. Even though I had thought the Nuforces couldn't get much better (what a great amp!), recently, I've gotten remarkable improvements from simple vibration isolation of my Nuforce 8.02's, and so the listed tweaks make a lot of sense. I'm going to bustle home tonight and start tweaking again! Vibration control, vibration control, vibration control!!! Thanks.

Occam · « **Reply #4 on:** 9 Mar 2006, 06:59 pm »

Ticofan,

This does seem to work -
http://www.magnan.com/pages/tweaks/nuforce.html
I'd certainly agree that the Nuforce 8 benefits substantially from the proper powerconditioning. The minstrations of BPT or Audience Adept were extremely positive.
The conditioners you recommed are, like the Audience Adept, relatively straightforward CMC, capacitor augmented topologies.
It might well be that components with switching supplies are particularly amemable to the appropriate powerconditioners, and that might apply even moreso for amplifiers as their peak instantaneous current draw is potentially far lower than that of a linear ps.

I'm just starting to experiment with physical isolation on my own components. I'm quite taken with Mi-Rollers, but cheap as I am, I'm experimenting with 'UnHappy' balls. The Hyperion Magnetic floaters you recommend are now on my shortlist.

I've always enjoyed your Magnan Tweaks Pages.

Thaniks,
Paul

skrivis · « **Reply #5 on:** 9 Mar 2006, 07:08 pm »

Quote from: Occam

Ticofan,

This does seem to work -
http://www.magnan.com/pages/tweaks/nuforce.html
I'd certainly agree that the Nuforce 8 benefits substantially from the proper powerconditioning. The minstrations of BPT or Audience Adept were extremely positive.
The conditioners you recommed are, like the Audience Adept, relatively straightforward CMC, capacitor augmented topologies.
It might well be that components with switching supplies are particularly amemable to the appropriate powerconditioners, and that might ...

Switch mode PSs are sensitive to common-mode noise. Get a big isolation x-former. Oneac and Powervar make some good ones and you can often pick them up on Ebay dirt cheap.

rustydoglim · « **Reply #6 on:** 9 Mar 2006, 07:42 pm »

We found that the role of power conditioner is more relevant to shield upstream source devices from ground noise. With the amp connecting to the pc, we find that the sound is less transparent. Just connect the amps to good surge protector with EMI/RFI shielding but connect the other devices to the conditioner. I minor adjustment should improve the sound.

Occam · « **Reply #7 on:** 9 Mar 2006, 08:44 pm »

Quote from: nuforce-jason

We found that the role of power conditioner is more relevant to shield upstream source devices from ground noise. With the amp connecting to the pc, we find that the sound is less transparent. Just connect the amps to good surge protector with EMI/RFI shielding but connect the other devices to the conditioner. I minor adjustment should improve the sound.

Listening at last weekend's NYC MiniRave seem to be at odds with your recommedation. The rest of the system (source components) was powered by individually filtered outlets on the Audience Adept already. They were already isolated from each other as well as from the NuForces. The changes percieved by all, all positive, was the change caused powering the Nuforce 8s either directly into the dedicated AC line, or via the Audience Adept to the same line.
FWIW

[EDIT - I probably am not clear. In all cases all components were fed through a single dedicate AC line, either through the Audience Adept which was plugged into the single AC circuit, or directly into that AC circuit via outlets.]

Occam · « **Reply #8 on:** 9 Mar 2006, 08:57 pm »

Quote from: skrivis

Switch mode PSs are sensitive to common-mode noise. Get a big isolation x-former. Oneac and Powervar make some good ones and you can often pick them up on Ebay dirt cheap.

Skrivis,

I've presently got 9.5kva of isolation trans/conditioner skewed between 2 OneAc units. They're located in the room my wife affectionately calls the 'You're really starting to piss me off' room. As is, they are rather mediocre powerconditioning units, whether for powering linear or switching supplies.
They potentially can be reporpoised, and with sufficient genetic reengineering.... 'We can rebuild you bigger, stronger, faster...'

skrivis · « **Reply #9 on:** 9 Mar 2006, 10:09 pm »

Quote from: Occam

Skrivis,

I've presently got 9.5kva of isolation trans/conditioner skewed between 2 OneAc units. They're located in the room my wife affectionately calls the 'You're really starting to piss me off' room. As is, they are rather mediocre powerconditioning units, whether for powering linear or switching supplies.
They potentially can be reporpoised, and with sufficient genetic reengineering.... 'We can rebuild you bigger, stronger, faster...'

I only use them for my computer equipment actually. The only power conditioning I have on my stereo is a Tripplite Ultra power strip, which has an LC filter per outlet.

The power is pretty clean in my area, and my amp, preamp, and DAC use linear power supplies, so I haven't felt very motivated to do anything extra.

Occam · « **Reply #10 on:** 9 Mar 2006, 10:37 pm »

Quote from: skrivis

I only use them for my computer equipment actually. The only power conditioning I have on my stereo is a Tripplite Ultra power strip, which has an LC filter per outlet.

The power is pretty clean in my area, and my amp, preamp, and DAC use linear power supplies, so I haven't felt very motivated to do anything extra.

C'mon Skrivis -
Take a walk on the Wild Side!
doop, d'doop, doop, d'doop...
Take a walk on the Wild Side!

Put away that sliderule and brave the cauldron of empircal verification! No doubt those trippylites ease you sleep at night, but do little to improve the sound. Set yourself free to spent inordinate amounts of time obscessing.

Enter that slippery slope, go bespoke.
Take a walk on the Wild Side!

And by bespoke, I don't mean expensive. Shed those intellectual thought experiments, and venture into this world populated by the less gifted who must muddle through by actually experimenting. Apply your 'mad skills' to properly Feliciating your source components.

Take a walk on the Wild Side!

skrivis · « **Reply #11 on:** 10 Mar 2006, 01:46 pm »

Quote from: Occam

C'mon Skrivis -
Take a walk on the Wild Side!
doop, d'doop, doop, d'doop...
Take a walk on the Wild Side!

Put away that sliderule and brave the cauldron of empircal verification! No doubt those trippylites ease you sleep at night, but do little to improve the sound. Set yourself free to spent inordinate amounts of time obscessing.

Enter that slippery slope, go bespoke.
Take a walk on the Wild Side!

And by bespoke, I don't mean expensive. Shed those intellectual thought experiments, and ...

If there _are_ improvements to be had, the filters in the Tripplite are a good start.

As for the Felicia, my equipment doesn't lend itself to balanced power AFAIK. (All of the components have 2-wire cords.)

Also... my amp, for instance, has a pretty large power x-former (It's based on a Hafler DH-220 and uses the stock x-former), plus a rectifier bridge and large banks of filter caps. There are also local filter caps for the stages in the front end. Finally, the circuits evidently display very good PSRR.

All of those things work toward achieving the same ends as all of the power tweaks that people are into. Am I to decide that the designer of my amp really wasn't competent and that the amp needs help? If there were possible inexpensive improvements, wouldn't any sane designer either implement them, or specify that the amp needs a Felicia or whatever?

Frank has always been into informing people of inexpensive improvements they can make. He's not stuck on the NIH idea either; he has presented other people's suggestions in Audio Basics. He would certainly be suggesting people build Felicias if they were worthwhile.

Being rational and using a textbook or sliderule approach (I do have 4 sliderules actually. hehe) has done very well for me. I get excellent sound from my system.

I think I'll limit my walks on the Wild Side to buying a new CD from a genre I don't normally listen to.

I shouldn't pick on the Felicia though. A lot of people have put a lot of time and effort into it. If someone finds it has Felicitous affects, them more "power" to them.

As for obsessing about the intangible, unknowable, and possibly unattainable, I gave that up for Lent.

Occam · « **Reply #12 on:** 10 Mar 2006, 05:47 pm »

Skrivis,

I appreciate your candor. Given your mininal actual first hand experience with the benefits of appropriate power conditioning, along with that lack of empirical curiousity, I think your choise of Frank as your paramount guide for all things in audio systems was a very wise and appropriate decision on your part. This association has obviously resulted in a system which meets your needs. And that is goal for all of us on these forums.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #13 on:** 10 Mar 2006, 07:19 pm »

Guys, I'm finding great fun in your back-and-forth volleys on subjects.....but this Nuforce's circle.

Not good manners in Nuforce's circle (Jason already upset enough over events of past few days)

- but I've, too, been guilty of not looking where I'm posting occasionally in the past

paul canady · « **Reply #14 on:** 11 Mar 2006, 06:01 am »

O.K. my two cents worth. This is what I have found on vibration control. Start with the cdp and work your way down. What I found on my system is that the harder vibration control devices work better than softer. The softer the vibration device the darker the sound became. BDR racing cones made the sound more transparent. If your system sounds a little edgy then the softer vibration device will help roll off the highs but you might lose some air in instruments. CDP is where I noticed this the most. The Nuforce 9.02's sounded fine on there own feet but I put the BDR cones under them anyway. One of the biggest differences was plugging the Nuforce directly into dedicated lines which gave me mcuh more resolution than the Panamax I was using. Now I really listen for the air around the instruments and Nuforce has enabled me to find that special sound. Next will be p8 or p9. Eperimentaion is half the fun.

Occam · « **Reply #15 on:** 13 Mar 2006, 03:50 pm »

Quote from: paul canady

...
One of the biggest differences was plugging the Nuforce directly into dedicated lines which gave me mcuh more resolution than the Panamax I was using. Now I really listen for the air around the instruments and Nuforce has enabled me to find that special sound. Next will be p8 or p9. Eperimentaion is half the fun.

So this tells us that the particular Panamax powerconditioner doesn't work particularly well with the NuForce amplifiers. I seriously hope you don't find this sufficient to conclude that no powerconditioners are needed to achieve best results.
The latest review in StereoTimes qualifies its coments with stating that it was with the Nuforces fed by a PSAudio UltraOutlet (a straightforward CMC + caps) powerconditioner, and the frontend fed by a PSAudio P300 multiwave regenerator.
This isn't suprising given my recent experience with a Nuforce 8 driven by, or bypassing, a Audience Adept -
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=25791&start=70
and my own additional experience with the Nuforce powered by a BPT conditioner seem to confirm that the amps themselves are substantially improved by certain types of powerconditioning.
Both the StereoTimes review (with the UO) and the March NYC mini-Rave (Audience Adept) seem to contradict Jason's statement from the first page -

Quote from: nuforce-jason

We found that the role of power conditioner is more relevant to shield upstream source devices from ground noise. With the amp connecting to the pc, we find that the sound is less transparent. Just connect the amps to good surge protector with EMI/RFI shielding but connect the other devices to the conditioner. I minor adjustment should improve the sound.

as in the above, all other components were allready conditioned and isolated from the NuForces.
A substantial portion of the benefits of power conditioning is attributable to the ac power entering the Nuforces.
This was extremely clear when auditoning with the Audience Adept, with, it really did sound like a different, far better amplifier. This was in an environment of good mains quality, on dedicated circuits. The Adept is very costly, and I'm not suggesting it is the only route to optimal performance. Its topology is very similar to the Foundation Research and PSAudio conditioners previously mentioned. And they're quite similar to the front end filters often found in switching supplies, themselves. But these filters typically address emitted EMI/RFI for FCC compliance. It would be ideal if compliance and sound quality could be sought with exactly the same objectives, but alas.... While filtering of input and output noise on AC lines isn't contradictory, it typically, and practically, must be addressed separately.

I actually own one of the conditioners, a Monster 3500 MKII that NuForce recommends. I use it on my TV/Video system (note - don't use the video signal conditioner capability, it degrades the picture) and I've tried it in my audio system, which is usually powered by my diy conditioners. I certainly see why Nuforce thinks powerconditioners offer minimal (if any) benefits beyond that of power sequencing and surge supression.

paul canady · « **Reply #16 on:** 13 Mar 2006, 11:08 pm »

Occam,
I will be looking into getting a power conditioner that works with Nuforce and if you have good results with the Monster conditioners that Nuforce recommends then thats the way I will probably go. My Panamax definetly does not work with the Nuforce. I need something good with about eight outlets. Five of the outlets will run the Nuforce amps. $300 to $500 range.
Any other suggestions would be appreciated.
My comments were just targeted to people who have these amps and a conditioner to try them both ways. It was brought to my attention so I thought I would pass it along.

skrivis · « **Reply #17 on:** 14 Mar 2006, 12:16 am »

Quote from: ticofan

I found that the NuForce 8.02 is extraordinarily sensitive to microvibration and noise-reducing external tweaks, and evaluated a number of techniques. I new page for this has been added to the "tweaks" section of my website at www.magnan.com/pages/tweaks/nuforce.html. Any comments?

Ah.... nah, no need.

Occam · « **Reply #18 on:** 14 Mar 2006, 01:57 am »

Paul - my comments on the Monster Power Conditioner, specifically the 3500 MKII, was not intended as an endorsement. I do use one for my TV system for its surge protection and power sequencing. When I tried it on my audio system, its performance was mediocre, at best. I would not recommend it for your Nuforces, or any high resolution system.
My recommendation for the best pc I've heard with the Nuforce amps is the Audience Adept. The changes wrought for the better were huge, even though the power was suburban, and fed via dedicated circuits. But at $3800 it doesn't fit my cheap SOB criteria. Ticoman has found the Foundation Research and PSAudio UO/UPC/PowerDirector, which are similar in design to be effective.
My own audio powerconditioning is DIY, using 100s lbs of balancing transformers.

Skrivis - I continue to be amazed by your definitive knowledge of what works, and doesn't in audio. This is even more astounding as it appears to spring 'resolved', without any actual first hand knowledge or actual experience on your part.

mmakshak · « **Reply #19 on:** 13 Jun 2007, 01:58 pm »

I tried 3 small isonodes under my P-8 and then bought some myrtle blocks and tried 3 of them under the P-8. I thought the it was a wash between them. I then put the isonodes under the myrtle and put this under the P-8. I thought this was better than when either was used alone. I also tried some rubber, cork, rubber footers under the myrtle blocks, and these sounded worse than isonodes under the myrtle(which was contrary to what I expected). The sound with the isonodes/myrtle under the P-8 was definitely better than the regular feet of the P-8, although separation of the sound was less obvious. I also compared the 8.5 with their feet versus no feet and the amps sitting on 4 inch teak(no feet touching), and felt that the no-feet sounded more solid. This last observation was noticed when I listened outside of the listening room.