[eric the red]

So I'm looking inside my Paradox 3's yesterday afternoon at the wire Danny uses between the crossovers, binding posts and drivers, and it looks to me to be fairly ordinary 14 or 16 gauge plastic covered copper wire. As Danny is a speaker builder by trade and sells quite a few speakers that use the same wire, let's assume that Danny knows what he is doing and that the wire he uses is more than adequate for his well-regarded speaker designs. Then out of curiousity, I open up my Audiomat amp and note how thin the wires are that are connected to the binding posts and look at the rest of the wire inside the amp. Pretty ordinary thin gauge copper wire from what I can see.  I'm sure Audiomat wouldn't skimp on the quality of the wire as it too is a well regarded, great- sounding product that looks to be extremely well built. I then go in my closet and dig out some 1.00 a foot Tara wire that I've used off and on in my rig for about ten years, pull my 90.00 a meter Nordost wire out, plug the Tara wire in and VOILA!   I can't for the life of me convince myself that there is any whatsoever sonic differences between the two wires. Question: How the heck can a short length (4-6-8 feet) of speaker wire between the amp binding posts and the speaker binding posts possibly cause ANY sonic differences when the wires that they are bridging is so ordinary looking and THIN? Why not try and match up the diameter of the wire inside your speaker running to the binding posts and call it good? Just some clean copper 14 gauge with bare ends and you're done. Maybe 10 bucks worth of material max.  Does some audio hocus-pocus (besides marketing) that some of us just don't get happen between that 6' stretch of lonesome highway between the amp and speakers that makes all the different speaker wires on the market necessary?

[Pez]

Ah jeez! When will this topic die? First off, what equipment, second off what did you listen to, third what other cables have you tried?

[Carlman]

$10 !! For speaker wire? that's fairly expensive.  I'm currently using $4.80 worth of Canare 4s11, star quad speaker cable.  It has 4-16 gauge individual wires in it.  I combined wire pairs at the amp and separate them at the speakers.  I guess that's called 'biwiring'....  

Why am I using such 'high caliber' speaker cable?   I sold my Kimber 4TC to fund a new cable purchase.  So, I used this time as an opportunity to experiment and decide whether expensive cable was worth it.

I could hear a big difference between the Canare and Kimber 4TC.  After replacing the 4TC with the Canare, I noticed less bass detail, rolled off highs, and less detailed midrange.  However, it was not AS dramatic as I thought it would be but, it was a big change from I was used to.

I haven't looked in my speakers yet but, since I built the amp, I put 14 gauge copper wire between the amp boards and power supply and to the speaker binding posts... However, the binding posts will be bypassed when I decide which cable is the best.  Then, the speaker cables will be directly wired from the amp to the speakers.  If I ever move to a new house with a dedicated sound room, the cable will then be soldered directly to the crossover.  So, no binding posts, no spades, bananas, etc. to get in the way.  

Speaker cable doesn't matter as much as interconnects in my experience but, it does matter.

-C

[eric the red]

Why should that make any difference Jason? How does 6' of speaker wire between the amp and speakers make a sonic difference in somebody's rig when all the wire is doing is bridging two components wired with thin gauge ordinary copper wire? Magic?

[Haoleb]

If you dont think wires make a difference, what i wanna know is, why you have 90 dollar a meter Nordost cables  

[Tyson]

If you don't hear a difference, then it's pointless to worry about whether others do, or "why" they do.  Be glad you don't hear a difference, you're gonna save a bundle (wish I could say the same) . . .

[Pez]

Why should that make any difference Jason? How does 6' of speaker wire between the amp and speakers make a sonic difference in somebody's rig when all the wire is doing is bridging two components wired with thin gauge ordinary copper wire? Magic?

The same reason a pre-amp makes a difference (which I argue bridges your source to your amp), the same reason different CDP's make a difference, or capacitors, or any other thing that can be measured or not be measured.  And yes YOU CAN MEASURE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CABLES!!! But like Tyson said if you can't hear a diff it ain't no diff to me.

[byteme]

Another slant is that maybe, just maybe that "ordinary" looking wire between crossover and driver isn't just so ordinary.  When I upgraded the crossovers in my mains to better caps, etc. I also got Cardas wire from percyaudio.com.  It was $1.65/$1.50 per foot for the mid/high wires.  When I got it, it looked pretty damn ordinary.  However I'm quite sure that with the rest of the upgrades I did it did contribute to the better sound that I'm hearing.  So, this could be just a don't judge a book by it's cover lesson.

On the other hand, it could also be that since it's inside the speaker and unseen - it doesn't need to have all the extra and expensive trappings that those external speaker cables need to have in order to justify their ridiculous prices...that's a question you need to answer for yourself...

[Psychicanimal]

I strongly suggest you go to Rat Shack and buy some magnet wire...

[Ravi]

Try to unravel an inductor in your crossover, or the voice coil in your woofer.  You'll see endless amount of thin, nameless copper wire.  A hell of a lot longer than your speaker cable.

Jason, I don't agree with your pre-amp analogy.  A pre-amp is not a straight wire.  There are a lot of resistors, caps, tubes, pcb's, pots, extra inputs, outputs,  etc. in a preamp.  Not to mention a powersupply and rectifier.   Yes there are wires in a pre-amp, but they are insignificant compared to the other parts.

Let me guess why ETR has a $90 cable, maybe wasting that money is what opened his eyes.

To each his own, but as for me, I agree with ETR on this one.

[Hantra]

If you ever try any Audience AU24 in your system, and it doesn't make a profound difference in your system, then I suggest you go directly to your doctor.  Do not pass go, or collect $200.  Tell the doctor you can't hear for shi@t, and that you desperately need him to blow the chunks of debris from your ears.  

Rinse. . .

Repeat. . .

[JohnR]

I strongly suggest you go to Rat Shack and buy some magnet wire...

... for speaker cables??

[Psychicanimal]

That's right!  Get the combo pack for $3.99 and give ultra thin wires a shot!  Those who don't believe in break-in of cables will watch that thin cable break in in front of your eyes just like Jiffy Pop popcorn!

[Redbeard]

Eric,

Don't be disappointed if you don't get rational answers on this forum. The placebo effect is prevalent here in spades. If I am not mistaken, one member even believes that he can raise the temperature in a crystal through meditation...

Signing off and returning to planet Earth.
 

_________________
Lottery - A tax on people who are bad at math.

[Pez]

       
Pretty funny considering none of this discussion has to do with placebo. Give me a break none of what we have discussed here has any basis in anything but science.  Ironically the only people here who are not being scientific are the ones claiming that something in the audio chain has zero effect either measurable or perceived.  Now measurable difference is one thing nobody can refute, perceived...... that is entirely subjective. You can't hear it? Too bad for you. But don't tell me what I can and can't hear. Yes voice coils, capacitors, and resistors are all in the signal path too, but if you're like me you pay attention to all of those details as well as cables and acknowledge that each is important and none must be ignored.

[cjr888]

Have I heard major differences in sound for better or for worse by switching speaker cables in people's system's?  You betcha.

I'm not just chiming in to place my opinion on one side or the other, phpBB has its own voting mechanism for surveys if we want to play that game.  I do have some comments and questions.

Do I often wonder the how or why's of system changes, whether its a few feet of wire, or otherwise?  Sure.  Do I really care that much if its does something better and meets my budget, nope.

Being that I've heard drastic changes due to wire in this system or that, the thing that I have wondered is why I don't see as elaborate designs or choices inside the speaker as mentioned in the original message, just with the slant that I think there are benefits to be had....potentially.

But you rarely here of crazy geometry, protection, isolation, etc inside of the speaker -- any reason?  You see people replace it with 'improved' wire, but rarely more than just replacing it with better 'hookup' wire.   I'd think if anything, with this would be critical for those that cover every detail...being in an environment with plenty of vibration...say having the need or benefit of certain type of cable or gauge, and then being stuck hitting a binding post, and then going through cabling with half the care taken. Any comments without sarcasm?

Outside of cabling, if we are going to talk of everything from the end of your speaker cable connection up to the crossover, I'd be more included to shun the binding posts rather than the internal wiring, though I'm still curious.

As completely eliminating binding posts at the amplifier end, and at the crossover/driver end of things typically isn't feasible for most people, I've been intrigued by the idea of using binding posts, but not necessarily having them so much in the path.

If you're willing to modify, or are completely DIY, I like the idea that's been proposed to leave the binding posts, but disconnect the internal connection.  Then drill a hole next to each binding post, enough to pull the wire through, and then place the 'internal' wiring as well as your speaker cable in said binding post, enough to make a very solid connection...using the binding post, but not having it really in the path.  Do the same thing for your speaker and speaker cable.  

This may have been discussed here in another thread, but I'd been reading of people doing this for users of Paul Speltz's Zeros, and also on the Decware forum and users of the Hornshoppe horns, and many felt this provided them with benefit....plus its a lot cheaper than some of the rediculously expensive posts for sale these days.

[nathanm]

Ah jeez! When will this topic die?

Well, you could start by not being the first one to reply to it!  

But you rarely here of crazy geometry, protection, isolation, etc inside of the speaker -- any reason? You see people replace it with 'improved' wire, but rarely more than just replacing it with better 'hookup' wire.

Well, wire is the easiest thing to change, hence the desire to try different ones.  Geez, imagine if you ordered speakers with the amount of cable you needed directly soldered to the driver\crossover?  There'd be no 3rd party cable salesmen, and then everyone would be sad.

I think Tyson said it best in that if you don't hear a difference, good! Heh!

As far as changing the internal wires goes, it would have to be confirmed by having another person perform the switch and seeing if you still perceive the change blind.  Even better, swap the wires without the owner knowing about it and seeing if he notices.  The more you can eliminate bias the more accurate the true effect of the wire will be.  If it is really doing something positive you should be able to notice it without undue concentration.  The other thing you should do is perform the test using splitter cables and an SPDT switch.  I have heard from some experts that this is the ideal situation.

Any comments without sarcasm?

Where's the fun in that?  That's like drinking dehydrated water.

[Redbeard]

Pez,

You're right, my post had nothing to do with the comments posted on this thread, so for the benefit of the thread I deleted it.

BTW, I'm in the camp that believes that speaker cables do make an audible difference in some systems, but the difference can be traced back to the effect that the difference in the R/L/C of the cable have on the amplifier.  I'm sure you are familiar with the discussion of this topic in another thread.

IMHO, an unfortunate side affect of this system dependency is that one can not make a blanket statement about the effect that speaker cable x, y, or z will have on a system.  Any meaningful discussion only pertains to systems with similar amplifier/speaker combinations.  

Back to the topic at hand (somewhat), like a previous poster, I've often wondered why there is so much attention and money thrown at interconnects, speaker cables, and accessories such as silver plated cryo'd AC outlets, and no discussion about the garden variety wire and PCB material used inside of the components?  Could it be that the equipment manufacturer don't really believe it makes a difference?

[edit] On second thought I put the original post back.  What the heck!

[JohnR]

That's right!  Get the combo pack for $3.99 and give ultra thin wires a shot!  Those who don't believe in break-in of cables will watch that thin cable break in in front of your eyes just like Jiffy Pop popcorn!

Heh heh, OK, thanks for  the tip

[Psychicanimal]

A cryo'ed outlet is the most cost effective improvement that can be done in an audio system--plain and simple.

$45 on an ACME silver plated, cryo'ed outlet will leave you stomped--and will keep you from being a troll...