[James Romeyn]

wrote:
Contact the seller. Offer him a little gift certificate of CDs to contact the dealer & get a copy of the receipt. C'mon, that's an easy no brainer.

I know the dealer. If you knew them you might realize that this is not as trivial as it sounds.
You command some respect on these forums Jim. Not from me.
Thanks for the pointless dig.  
EP

I apologize if my response was too harsh.  Sorry if there was any offense, it was not mean so personally as you apparently took it.  I meant it just seemed like an obvious oversight on your part, something I'm guilty of almost every day (sometimes twice or thrice, ask our company president).

If the dealer would not provide the receipt, that's a bad business practice.  If that's what you meant, it might have been good just to provide that info.  Your post seems a bit cryptic, still.

There could even be consumer law prohibiting this strange practice, unless it was pre-disclosed at the time of sale.  It borders on unethical.  If the dealer said they don't keep such records, that would probably be easy to prove as false: Receipts must be kept for income tax & sales tax reasons.  Also, without a reliable complete record of receipts, the dealer would have no ability to prove the ilegitimacy of a forged receipt.  

What is the reason for not providing the receipt?  Just to piss people off?  They could charge a reasonable fee for the office work, but that's about it.  This strange practice might even be illegal by some state's consumer laws.

One interesting CA law mandates warranty service either be a "reasonable" distance from buyers, or the manufacturer must pay for all shipping fees.

[James Romeyn]

Punishing your customers is a poor way to do business.  It's the dealers who are violating their dealer agreements (by selling goods on the grey market and on the Internet).  Manufacturers should punish the violators, not the customers.  It's an easy matter to revoke the dealer agreements by tracing serial numbers for Internet sales, which leads me to believe that the manufacturers are not sincerely interested in stopping these selling practices.  They're just interested in reducing their warranty repair expenses.

Bryston (you guys gotta visit the Krell site to see the most extreme example of this subject) is NOT punishing THEIR customers, they are punishing the customers of unauthorized third party dealers who have no contract to sell the product with Bryston.  Bryston views everyone involved in the transaction (the authorized dealer who is discounting or doing a favor or selling out of territory or whatever), the unauthorized dealer, & the end user, as all diminishing Bryston's ability to thrive & prosper.  And Spock wants everyone to live long & prosper, right?

The last reason Bryston is doing this is to mimimize exposure.  It's lastly about exposure.  And it is certainly very likely that Bryston has a written, clear discipline policy signed by each authorized dealer.  Bryston can easily trace a serial number to discover the dealer who originally got any component.  

Probably the first offense gets a stern warning & probation.  Finaly after the third or forth offense within a certain time frame the dealer will get no product for a certain length of time.  After a certain number of offenses in a certain time frame, the dealer's license is permanently expired, just like a driver's license.  There are probably written discipline memos delivered all along the way, stating the violation, proving the violation, & the discipline being enforced.  There could even be civil penalties.  This is quite similar to criminal copyright enforcement, minus the criminal element.

Dealers who don't want to play by the rules can discontinue selling the brand.  How much more simple can this be?

[Watson]

Bryston (you guys gotta visit the Krell site to see the most extreme example of this subject) is NOT punishing THEIR customers, they are punishing the customers of unauthorized third party dealers who have no contract to sell the product with Bryston. Bryston views everyone involved in the transaction (the authorized dealer who is discounting or doing a favor or selling out of territory or whatever), the unauthorized dealer, & the end user, as all diminishing Bryston's ability to thrive & prosper.

It's not my job as a customer to police a manufacturer's dealer agreements.  That's up to the manufacturer.  The manufacturer should not be taking it out on the customers.  We're not involved in the transaction between Bryston and the manufacturers, and we're not party to the dealer agreements.  

Refusing to respect a customer's warranty is just petty.  In most cases, the customer will likely have no idea he purchased from an unauthorized dealer and that the warranty is void.  It's the customer that's going to be harmed, and that's just bad business.  Bryston's reputation will suffer in the long run, as a trickle of people suddenly discover Bryston won't honor their warranties and complain about it.  

Bryston is foolish if they underestimate the damage this could do long-term.  A big part of the reason people pay so much for Brystons is because of their utterly bulletproof, hassle-free reputation for service.  You hear stories about people buying a 15 year old amp with no papers, sending it in for warranty work, and getting it back in tip-top shape.  That kind of word of mouth is no more with this policy.  It might not make a difference to you, but to me, knowing that if I lose my receipt over the years, Bryston will still repair a piece of gear has definite value.  For newly purchased gear, that value is now gone.

[Sebastiaan de Vries]

Bryston is foolish if they underestimate the damage this could do long-term. A big part of the reason people pay so much for Brystons is because of their utterly bulletproof, hassle-free reputation for service. You hear stories about people buying a 15 year old amp with no papers, sending it in for warranty work, and getting it back in tip-top shape. That kind of word of mouth is no more with this policy. It might not make a difference to you, but to me, knowing that if I lose my receipt over the years, Bryston will still repair a piece of gear has definite value. For newly purchased gear, that value is now gone.

Dear Watson

I'm so agree...

Best Regards,
Bas

[PorkpieHat]

James I bought my SST amp used on Audiogon from a guy who couldn't find his original receipt. I am always worried that the equipment might be stolen so I called Bryston, gave them the serial number, and they said it had not been reported stolen. Could you do the same with regards to authorized sale? If someone were to call you with a used piece of Bryston equipment they are thinking of buying, would you be able to tell from the serial number whether it was an authorized sale or not? I agree with the others that this is going to devalue your products. That transferrable warranty is a big differentiator, whether buying new or used.

[Bob15]

I thought Mr. Tanner said this new policy only applies to product manufactured post February 2006?  If that's the case, then in my view Bryston should actively engage all its authorized dealers to instill in their customers who are purchasing now the need to keep a copy of their original receipt if they want warranty service and if they want to maximize the secondary value of their machine.  It should read on BOLD letters in the Instruction manual and/or on the Box itself that this is the rule to keep customers and dealers mindful of this.  

Therefore, I see this policy as the opposite of most people. I see this new policy as enhancing Brystons's secondary market value for those customers that purchased their Bryston equipment the proper way - through an authorized dealer.  When these customers go to sell, their equipment will surely command a nice premium (even possibly higher than today's secondary market value) over those people who purchased POST FEBRUARY 2006 and don't have the original sales receipt most likely because they purchased online from one of those unscrupulous internet websites. [/u]

[James Tanner]

I thought Mr. Tanner said this new policy only applies to product manufactured post February 2006?  If that's the case, then in my view Bryston should actively engage all its authorized dealers to instill in their customers who are purchasing now the need to keep a copy of their original receipt if they want warranty service and if they want to maximize the secondary value of their machine.  It should read on BOLD letters in the Instruction manual and/or on the Box itself that this is the rule to keep custo ...

Hi Bob,

Yes we have notified all the Dealers and Distributors world-wide on the changes. We have also added a 'special attention' notice in every shipping box so the customer will be reminded when he opens the equipment. The new manuals also contain the new warranty information. We also posted it on our website as well of course.

james

[gostan]

It seems to me that there is are some important issues which are missing from the responses to Bryston's warranty changes.

1.  There is now an affirmative duty cast upon all purchasers of Bryston equipment manufactured after February 8, 2006 to determine that the unit was purchased from an authorized dealer.

2.  If I purchase a Bryston piece manufactured after February 8, 2006 from a audio dealer who advises me that he is an authorized dealer, then, I will now need to check with Bryston before purchasing in order to determine that the dealer is an authorized reseller.  Yes, Bryston has a list of authorized dealers on its' website, but I would bet that it is not kept completely current.  What happens when Bryston and an authorized dealer terminate their relationship and I purchase a remainder piecefrom the dealer after the dealership is terminated?

3.  If I put a Bryston piece manufactured after February 8, 2006 on Audiogon or Ebay for sale, I will now need to give the name of the dealer and may have to send the sales slip to the ultimate purchaser prior to completion of sale.  Same if I elect to purchase one.  This will likely have an effect on the prices of used Bryston equipment manufactured after February 8, 2006.

I can understand why Bryston has taken this position with its' warranty going forward, but it will most likely have some effect on the used market of newly manufactured Bryston pieces and it will add some additional time, effort and paperwork to protect one's self in purchasing and selling newly manufactured Bryston equipment.  Nothing that we can't all deal with-but something that we had better be on top of to protect our selves as purchasers of Bryston equipment.

[elcaptain88]

I'm in total agreement with Bryston on this one - they're running a business, not a charity. They're only making the change to prospective equipment & grandfathering older units - that's completely fair. Not to mention, its still one of the most comprehensive warranty coverages out there.

I'm amazed at how fervent some people are over this - most people won't even need the warranty on Bryston equipment. The better question is if Bryston will still be in business & independent in 20 years; I bet you can count on one hand all the manufacturers being discussed in these circles that were in business back in 1986.

[James Romeyn]

It's not my job as a customer to police a manufacturer's dealer agreements.  That's up to the manufacturer.  The manufacturer should not be taking it out on the customers.  We're not involved in the transaction between Bryston and the manufacturers, and we're not party to the dealer agreements.  

...

This was probably a calculated & highly debated policy within Bryston.  They weighed these two items:

The negative perception among consumers viewing the new receipt policy as an undue burden, & who believe it minimizes the long-term investment value in the product.
vs.
The permanent, constantly eroding negative long-term impact, with no view of it ever ceasing, of B&M stores having their investment minimized because of wildcat dealers who break their signed, legal, civil contract rules w/ Bryston.  

The solution to the former problem is solved by original purchasers becoming aware of the new policy (happening as we all read this forum).  Purchasers of used products will become aware shortly unless they live in a cave.  Bryston will be posting it all over their web site home page if it's not already there (again, go to Krell).  Authorized dealers should get a huge Bryston sign with Bryston's website address, the dealer ID number, & a short note to go there to confirm ID.  The Bryston website list of authorized dealers must be updated daily or weekly at the very least, with the edit date time always visible, & with no other advertising bullshit whatsoever on that page.  Each original purchaser must & will at some point act on the following consideration: I either don't give a crap about resale value & don't give a rats ass what happens to this here Bryston receipt in my hands...OR...I must & will absolutely secure this here Bryston receipt for future resale value & consideration.  If you tell me someone could spend as much money on a Bryston component & not give a crap about the receipt, I'd say I probably don't want to own that idiot's component (YMMV).  (If you had a fire or theft of your receipt & your forwarded a copy of the fire &/or police report to the dealer & he didn't forward a copy of the receipt, you got legal cause to coerce them.)  The only way an authorized dealer is exposed to discipline is if/when he discounts the sale.  If the sale is full MSRP, then anyone purchasing it to resell it for profit is going to have to find someone stupid enough to pay above MSRP.  How likely is that?  Yes, he could discount the sale if he wants, but to the extent he discounts, he increases the likelihood of it being resold soley for profit.  Now, this second dealer, is he/she offering anything (a storefront for instance), to increase the brand's value & prosperity?  Of course not!  His sole & only desire is to put money in his pocket at that very moment.  If the dealer does want to discount something, he can toss in other products for free (cable, furniture, whatever), or offer free services of some kind.  

Important part: Bryston needs the receipt to legally prove the dealer broke their civil agreement.  Without a receipt, Bryston has only their word.  With the receipt, Bryston has a document that proves some hanky panky took place.  Thanks to the proliferation of lawyers with nothing to do, Bryston is exposed to legal process without the receipt when/if they try to enforce discipline.  

The threat of the latter problem is Bryston's very existence.  As I mentioned earlier, if & when there are nothing but wildcat Bryston dealers reselling grey market goods (not sold per civil agreement), Bryston could eventually cease to exist.  How long do you think they last without a store to audition goods?  Not long.  Do you want that?

I challenge each & every reader to solve the latter problem in another fashion.  If you think of a solution better than Bryston's, post it here & let's vote.  If you send it to Bryston & they agree you will see it implemented.  You can't, so you won't, & I rest my case.

This thread has a ton of complaining & grumbling, but no alternatives.

[James Romeyn]

...It should read on BOLD letters in the Instruction manual and/or on the Box itself that this is the rule to keep customers and dealers mindful of this.

Therefore, I see this policy as the opposite of most people. I see this new policy as enhancing Brystons's secondary market value for those customers that purchased their Bryston equipment the proper way - through an authorized dealer. When these customers go to sell, their equipment will surely command a nice premium (even possibly higher than today's secondary market value) over those people who purchased POST FEBRUARY 2006 and don't have the original sales receipt most likely because they purchased online from one of those unscrupulous internet websites.

Amen.  Well said.  The best point I've read in this thread.

[TomW16]

If I understand the issue correctly, Bryston seems to be implementing a receipt policy to ensure that any warranty claims are for units purchased from authorized dealers.  I believe that most people are having issue with the additional burdon of not only retaining a sales receipt (or obtaining a sales receipt if buying used) but also confirming that the unit was sold from an authorized dealer.  This new policy shifts some warranty responsibility from the manufacturer to the consumer, which may turn off some potential customers.

I may be naive but if Bryston has a 20 year warranty, which in my opinion is a huge selling feature,  it seems unjust to penalize a consumer by not honouring a warranty claim because the unit somehow did not follow the proper distribution channel.  The warranty is for manufacturer defects and has nothing to do with distribution channels and pricing.  

If the underlying issue is improper distribution channels and pricing, that should be addressed directly with the distributers.  

Just my two cents worth.

Tom

[nicolasb]

Well, I think is immensely dissapointing and will ruin the second hand market. The single best thing about Bryston equipment has always been the warranty: buy a piece of used Bryston kit, and it doesn't matter if it's ten years old with seven previous owners, you know you're covered for the whole of the next ten years: no ifs, ands or buts. It was wonderful.

This policy will have absolutely no effect whatsoever on "illegal" dealers. It will prevent people who bought the equipment new from being able to sell it, and prevent people who buy it second hand from being able to get it repaired when it goes wrong. And that's all it will do.

[jethro]

I agree with nicolas - I find the changes disappointing as well. I've bought all of my Bryston gear used, except for my SPV-1 and the upgrade to my SP-1.  In my area, it's easier for me to buy used than from the local Bryston dealers. Perhaps I'm a difficult customer, although that's highly unlikely.

Anyhow, I believe the changes still allow an owner without a receipt for a unit dated after Feb 06, to get their equipment repaired for a cost. It wasn't only the 20 year warranty that appealed to me when first buying used  Bryston gear - they also can and will repair their equipment, no matter how old it is (for a price). They don't make disposable equipment which is a plus. So perhaps this will offset people's disappointment and it should lessen the effect on the used market.

[James Romeyn]

 The warranty is for manufacturer defects ...

As a matter of fact, any attorney can & will tell you the actual legal purpose of any "limited warranty" is to expresly & explicitly spell out the LIMITS of the manufacturer's liability in the area of warranty claims.  It spells out the borders of the claims, the areas in which the manufacturer must not be coerced into coverage.

Without limits being expressely spelled out, a consumer has legal claim to any & all coverage of any kind, from flood to voodoo dolls to terrorist attacks.

Read your "warranty" & see for yourself.  The receipt, or lack thereof, is one more item in a long list of conditions freeing Bryston from coverage.

[marvda1]

how about this,  since bryston said in some countries  you cannot be forced to send in a warranty registration, to the original owner at purchase you can send in a copy of your receipt from a legal dealer along with your registration card to make repair issues easier and bryston has a copy of the original receipt to follow the unit or if you don't send in a copy in the future all claims must have  a copy for covered repair.
in this way the original buyer can insure his resale value and make it easier for everyone.
other than that it seems they are trying to do like the rebate people and play the odds that the receipt will get lost and they will be freed up from honoring a claim.

just my $.02

[James Romeyn]

Wow, not bad, I may have lost my bet (glad I don't bet).  That's a pretty darn good idea.  Hey Bryston, you listn'n?  Good job mate.

[gravy]

I agree with nicolas - I find the changes disappointing as well. I've bought all of my Bryston gear used, except for my SPV-1 and the upgrade to my SP-1.  In my area, it's easier for me to buy used than from the local Bryston dealers. Perhaps I'm a difficult customer, although that's highly unlikely.

As a bryston owner, my initial feeling is disappointment as well.

[eico1]

Read your "warranty ...

Yea, like the Bryston warranty on digital circuits is 5 years. I wouldn't even consider warranty service on a power amp, though I may be mistaken that a factory repair for a such an amp would be affordable, like 10% of the origional cost. My B&K has been going 20 years, big deal, it's a power amp. A receiver I would assume to throw away in 5-10 years, like my HK.

steve

[Bob15]

[quote="nicolasb"
This policy will have absolutely no effect whatsoever on "illegal" dealers. It will prevent people who bought the equipment new from b ...[/quote]


Huh?  I thought the #1 reason a majority of people shy away from unauthorized dealers is because of the warranty being voided.  But nobody shys away from buying a Bryston from an un-authorized dealer because the warranty was as good as gold.  

I see a direct correlation here, don't you?  Of course it won't completely eliminate internet sales but it will certainly help.  Who is going to buy a $5,000+ component now without a guaranteed warranty?  Some still will take a chance, but a lot won't!!!!